Bible verses nobody wants to see.

Take a look at this passages:
2 Thess 2:9-12 - God puts deception upon people;
Matt 11:25-27- Jesus Praises God that he has hidden the truth to some people and he even say its Gods will;
Mark 4:12 - Jesus says he speaks in parabales so that people WILL NOT understand him.
Rom 11:7 - Paul say that God has hardend Israel so they wont get saved now.
Rev 17:17 - Says that it was Gods plan to put in peoples mind to follow the beast.
Prov 21:1 - says that Gods leads the thought of the kings wherever he likes.
Hebr 12:17 - Says that God denied Esau Repentance even though he cried for it.

Philippines is nice.
Specially Mindanao.

There is a good preaching about Does God have 2 wills? - Matt Chandler
Where many of this verses are quoted
http://denton.thevillagechurch.net/resource_files/audio/20070410DoesGodHaveTwoWills.mp3

Some more verses supporting the doctrine of reprobation:

1 Petr 2:8 "And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed."

"who were before of old ordained to this condemnation" Jud .4

@Josef83,

Is your doctrine of reprobation, based on 'foreknowledge' or the calvinist version of predestination.

Take a look at this passages:
2 Thess 2:9-12 - God puts deception upon people;

2Th 2:9\tThe coming of the [lawless one] is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,

2Th 2:10\tand with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2Th 2:11\tAnd for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,

2Th 2:12\tthat they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

God is condemning these people for a specific reason. Can you find that reason?

2Th 2:10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Here is an example of those who rejected God repeatedly, and then the resultant work of God sending strong delusion among those who did not receive the love of the truth...

1Ki 22:19 Then [Micaiah] said, "Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing by, on His right hand and on His left.

1Ki 22:20 "And the LORD said, 'Who will persuade Ahab to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?' So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner.

1Ki 22:21 "Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, and said, 'I will persuade him.'

1Ki 22:22 "The LORD said to him, 'In what way?' So he said, 'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' And the LORD said, 'You shall persuade [him], and also prevail. Go out and do so.'

1Ki 22:23 "Therefore look! The LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the LORD has declared disaster against you."

All the verses above speak of GOD as the one acting upon sinful man, the author of judgment. This makes me wonder if the words “the god of this age” refers to God, especially since the Greek here for “the god” is exactly the same as the Greek for “God” everywhere else, and the Greek for “age” is the same as for “eternity” elsewhere.

“The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel...” 2 Corinthians 4:4

Questions to ponder:
Can Satan ever be considered the author of judgment upon humanity?
If God permits Satan to be an accomplice in judgment, then is God still not the one sovereign?

Is our theology not eschewed if we attribute spiritual desensitization to Satan? (ex in Open Theology)

Is this hardening not actually the effect of the fall: “All have fallen short of the glory of God”?

Since all humanity is turfed from the garden (by GOD), all stand in need of an awakening by the Spirit (salvation from divine judgment).

Does "nobody" want to see this reality about our human condition, because it confronts our understanding of "love"? Judgement is regarded as the antithesis of love when really it is the expression of love: "I am a jealous God..."

Any thoughts?

Diane

Roadsign said:
All the verses above speak of GOD as the one acting upon sinful man, the author of judgment. This makes me wonder if the words “the god of this age” refers to God, especially since the Greek here for “the god” is exactly the same as the Greek for “God” everywhere else, and the Greek for “age” is the same as for “eternity” elsewhere.

“The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel...” 2 Corinthians 4:4

Answer:
The expression “ the god of this age” can not be a reference to God for the following reason:
The word “ age” or “aion in Greek” may be the same as eternity or ever ( meaning unlimited amount of time) but when the word “ This” or “toutou in Greek” has preceded it, it limited its meaning. For example: The word “ light” in the sentence” God is light” refers to an unlimited amount of light, but when I say: This light, one light, some light, or even much light, or a lot of light, the meaning is significantly changed. In this case reduced.

Roadsign said:
Can Satan ever be considered the author of judgment upon humanity?
If God permits Satan to be an accomplice in judgment, then is God still not the one sovereign?

Answer:
Satan is not the author of judgment but he is used by God for blinding unbelievers who resisted the convicting work of the Holy Spirit.
Also see: 2 Thess 2: 11,12
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Roadsign said:
Is this hardening not actually the effect of the fall: “All have fallen short of the glory of God”?
Since all humanity is turfed from the garden (by GOD), all stand in need of an awakening by the Spirit (salvation from divine judgment).

Answer:
The Spirit of God draws all men and convicts all men through the witness of creation and conscience. But when man resists all of that, he places himself under God’s judgment.

I have posted this story about Aaron Burr in another thread but it is a perfect example of someone who resisted the conviction of the Holy Spirit and God left him forever. This man made himself irredeemable.

Aaron Burr, wayward grandson on Jonathan Edwards.

Many of you may not know the story of Aaron Burr and the gospel meetings on the campus of Princeton University. When he was nineteen years of age, a brilliant student, a revival broke out on the campus. He was deeply convicted. His roommate asked him to accept Jesus Christ as his Savior, and he was almost persuaded. He went to see one of his professors and he told his professor about his dilemma. The professor gave him a Bible and said, “Go to your room and pray to this matter on your knees.” Instead of doing it, he tried to shake off the power of the Holy Spirit in conviction. And, finally, in desperation, he cried out, “God, let me alone and I’ll let you alone.” And as soon as he said it, all conviction left him.
Years later, he met a friend whom he admired very much, and this friend said to him, “Dr. Burr, I’d like to have you meet a friend of mine.” And, Dr. Burr said, “If he’s anything like you, I’d be glad to meet him.” His friend said, “His name is Jesus Christ. I’d like for you to meet him.” According to the account, cold sweat broke out on Aaron Burr’s forehead, and he told about this experience at age nineteen, when he said, “God, let me alone and I’ll let you alone.” And then he said, “From that day to this, I’ve never had one desire to be a Christian.” We may not be able to commit the unpardonable sin in the sense of Matthew, chapter 12, but it is possible for a man to commit unpardonable sin.

Roadsign said:
Does "nobody" want to see this reality about our human condition, because it confronts our understanding of "love"? Judgment is regarded as the antithesis of love when really it is the expression of love: "I am a jealous God..."

Answer:
Amen. However, this kind of judgment does not intend to draw man to God. It is final and irreversible. I can not say that God loves such. God has only one expression of love that is lasting and that is Christ. If anyone refuses to come through Christ, such is outside the boundaries of God’s love. I am not saying that any expression of rejecting Christ immediately places man under God’s judgment, But in times of Revival when God’s Spirit weighs down on man’s conscience with all His intensity, rejection in this case is fatal and final.

UntoBabes,

That's too hard to read.

Check your quotes you are missing a forward bracket somewhere.

should be

Mike

edit - looks better now.

Any one can quote some interesting things God does, which seems to put the blame on God. The context will show the reasons: Man's stubborness and rebellion. Get the context brothers and sisters.

Does "nobody" want to see this reality about our human condition, because it confronts our understanding of "love"? Judgement is regarded as the antithesis of love when really it is the expression of love: "I am a jealous God..."

God loved Job and used Satan to teach Job about himself. In the following Scripture we also find that God brings this upon man so that man might turn to Him...

Job 33:19 "[Man] is also chastened with pain on his bed, And with strong [pain] in many of his bones,

Job 33:20 So that his life abhors bread, And his soul succulent food.

Job 33:21 His flesh wastes away from sight, And his bones stick out [which once] were not seen.

Job 33:22 Yes, his soul draws near the Pit, And his life to the executioners.

Job 33:23 "If there is a messenger for him, A mediator, one among a thousand, To show man His uprightness,

Job 33:24 Then He is gracious to him, and says, 'Deliver him from going down to the Pit; I have found a ransom';

Job 33:25 His flesh shall be young like a child's, He shall return to the days of his youth.

Job 33:26 He shall pray to God, and He will delight in him, He shall see His face with joy, For He restores to man His righteousness.

Any one can quote some interesting things God does, which seems to put the blame on God. The context will show the reasons: Man's stubborness and rebellion.

It is less painful to attribute all bad things to Satan. Then we never have to face ourselves, or the painful reality that our loving God can hurt. Yet we must ultimately realize that God is the one who could have prevented the effects of judgment on humanity (including the desensitization to judgment!).

Note Psalm 42/43. This psalmist is in despair because of what seems to be the effects of judgment on the land. Enemies have invaded. They are mocking him saying, “Where is your God?” This causes the psalmist excruciating humiliation and mortifying agony. Yet the psalmist does not see the enemies as his biggest problem. God is! And so he complains to God, saying, “Why have you forgotten me? 42:9; Why have you rejected me? 43:2 But he pours out his complaint with unwavering faith and hope: “You my God are my stronghold”…. “For I will yet praise him, my Saviour and my God.”

I have often heard that God would never let anything bad happen. That contradicts numerous scriptures. When God is not regarded as the author of judgment, then his mercy is meaningless – and his salvation through Christ loses its intended relevance.

If you extract divine judgment you also extract divine grace. The two can never be severed from each other.

Nobody can handle the full reality of divine judgement without having a vibrant hope in God's grace.

Diane

"It is less painful to attribute all bad things to Satan. Then we never have to face ourselves, or the painful reality that our loving God can hurt. Yet we must ultimately realize that God is the one who could have prevented the effects of judgment on humanity (including the desensitization to judgment!). "

Isa 5:1\tNow let me sing to my Well-beloved A song of my Beloved regarding His vineyard: My Well-beloved has a vineyard On a very fruitful hill.

Isa 5:2\tHe dug it up and cleared out its stones, And planted it with the choicest vine. He built a tower in its midst, And also made a winepress in it; So He expected [it] to bring forth [good] grapes, But it brought forth wild grapes.

Isa 5:3\t"And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah, Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard.

sa 5:4\tWhat more could have been done to My vineyard That I have not done in it? Why then, when I expected [it] to bring forth [good] grapes, Did it bring forth wild grapes?

Isa 5:5\tAnd now, please let Me tell you what I will do to My vineyard: I will take away its hedge, and it shall be burned; [And] break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down.

Isa 5:6\tI will lay it waste; It shall not be pruned or dug, But there shall come up briers and thorns. I will also command the clouds That they rain no rain on it."

Isa 5:7\tFor the vineyard of the LORD of hosts [is] the house of Israel, And the men of Judah are His pleasant plant. He looked for justice, but behold, oppression; For righteousness, but behold, a cry [for help].

These did not receive the love of the truth...

Sis writes...

"I have often heard that God would never let anything bad happen. That contradicts numerous scriptures. When God is not regarded as the author of judgment, then his mercy is meaningless – and his salvation through Christ loses its intended relevance."

These people believed this in a past generation...

Isa 28:14\tTherefore hear the word of the LORD, you scornful men, Who rule this people who [are] in Jerusalem,

Isa 28:15\tBecause you have said, "We have made a covenant with death, And with Sheol we are in agreement. When the overflowing scourge passes through, It will not come to us, For we have made lies our refuge, And under falsehood we have hidden ourselves."

Isa 28:16\tTherefore thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, I lay in Zion a stone for a foundation, A tried stone, a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation; Whoever believes will not act hastily.

And...

Isa 30:9\tThat this [is] a rebellious people, Lying children, Children [who] will not hear the law of the LORD;

Isa 30:10\tWho say to the seers, "Do not see," And to the prophets, "Do not prophesy to us right things; Speak to us smooth things, prophesy deceits.

Isa 30:11\tGet out of the way, Turn aside from the path, Cause the Holy One of Israel To cease from before us."

Isa 30:12\tTherefore thus says the Holy One of Israel: "Because you despise this word, And trust in oppression and perversity, And rely on them,

The Holy One of Israel is the stumbling block for those who do not receive the love of the truth...