Will these seem like the good old days in a few years?

sermonindex Jul 18, 2011

Unemployment is really tough now. Believe me I know how hard it is to get a job now in America. We have a president who is not really concerned about it, and what incentive is there for businesses to stop exporting our jobs to China and Mexico? They refuse to stop allowing foreigners to come by the thousands/day in spite of a real unemployment rate of 17%.

Anyway, do any of you put a lot of stock in "The Vison" by David Wilkerson? Here's a statement that seems to be exactly the situation today:

"I see total economic confusion striking Europe first and then affecting Japan, the United States, Canada, and all other nations shortly thereafter.
It is NOT really a depression I see coming-but a recession of such magnitude that it will affect the lifestyle of nearly every wage earner in America and around the world."

The PIIGS countries in Europe are going to default on their debt. It's just a question of when. Then what will happen with the Euro? Japan has a massive national debt that they wont really be able to get out of. The U.S. is soon going to raise it's debt, and we will be in seroius trouble before long. I can see the dominos falling just like Pastor Wilkerson said they would in that vision he had in 1973. How could Wilkerson get a continent right for the first to fall, then an Asian country second, then U.S. third and Canada fourth which still has a relatively small national debt. He predicted accurately the current status of each country and continent. What are the chances of getting a continent right, follwed by 3 countries in the order of their financial condition? The odds against that are extremely high. Anyway, how do you think it will all shake out in a few years? In spite of how tough things are now, will we look back on these as the good ole days?

sermonindex Jul 18, 2011

The End of the American Dream

by Thomas Watkins

I’m writing about something sacred to me, and you will understand as I go on. I am 59, and I have been given dreams and visions, along with many other experiences with God since 1972, the year of my salvation and indwelling. In general , I have not shared them, except in a limited way, and that as the Lord has led.

In March, 2003, six years ago , I was in the spirit in a vision.

I saw a most beautiful company of men and women preparing for an event. They were Christians, and fearfully holy, and beautiful. They were dressed in simple and humble attire.

They were not young, nor old. It reminded me of the military days when I and my fellow soldiers would prepare for a mission, gathering material and supplies and strategy. These were the holiest people I have ever imagined. They glowed with Heaven’s Presence, and their eyes were like lamps; emitting light and love. They were frightening.

The scene changed and I saw a multitude of American people , trudging along like the bomb-out of Dresden Germany….refugees..men with dirty suits, with heads down , homeless, in a crowd that poked along for miles and miles. Children held the hands of parents, trudging along, with a general air of depression and despair. They had lost everything.

Every molecule of the sky and the Earth and the substance of that vision spoke a word….”THE END OF THE AMERICAN DREAM.” I also knew it would center around a “mortgage greed craze.”

The scene changed again, and I was there, watching as another mass of people were trudging along. They were all minorities, mostly black and Hispanics. I then realized that the first group were all white. The difference being that they, the minorities were very, very angry…..riot motivated angry. These crowds stretched for miles. “The End of the American Dream.” was over them all. These too, had lost everything…homes, cars, and all luxuries and possessions: they were in the street.

I can only guess at the numbers…..maybe a total of about 3 million split between both groups. I saw signs of traditional ministries following this group…but without much impact.

The vision ended.

Implications and thoughts.

Firstly, I think the fall of the American economy and dream is permanent. I do not think that we will ever see America rise to the prosperity levels that we saw previous to October 2008. It is over. I could say, “never to rise again.”

Secondly, it is going to get much, much worse. If 3 million people are homeless, then it means that many more were displaced, perhaps 20 to 25 million. The 3 million are just those who have no friends or family to take them in.

Thirdly, the economy will not recover…ever.

The economy is collapsing, along with jobs. We will see the fuller impact beginning the summer of 09′. Renters also will be affected, and perhaps more vulnerable. Everyone has bought into the idea that your CREDIT RATING is the thing that makes you a success. The Lord showed me men in dirty suits, which reads to me that the middle and the upper middle class will also be there among them. The rich, and the nearly rich have acquired debt as a lifestyle, to enjoy and be entitled to the American dream to the fullest. From gourmet Pet food, to the “better colleges”, classy cars, along with the “Prize”…the 5 bedroom brick Tudor semi-mansion in the ‘burbs….the middle class has taken the bait…and who will deliver them?

All believed that America would just go on putting out for ever..and it would never end. It has now.

As I write, the largest reverse migration in American history is happening: Mexican migrants returning to Mexico. In the past several months, over 2 million have returned home to the south, to survive with their families. There is no longer the construction industry. It has vanished, along with the absence of a credit market. The mass exodus continues, and the poor and service industries are always the first to fall.

Why?

There are 4 sins that are paramount in the last days; Immorality, Murder, Theft and Sorcery. America was founded in Christian Puritanical beliefs, that spread throughout her government and judicial system, and the fibers of every realm of society. Volumes could, and are written on her demise, but it is suffice to say that America, hand in hand with the freedom to do ANYTHING she likes, or is pleasurable, (has believed) it is our RIGHT: guaranteed by our constitution.

This can be paralleled with ancient Israel as they often drifted the same way…and through out time, the Lord has so dealt with Nations by sending judgment.

JUDGMENT FIRST MUST BEGIN WITH THE HOUSE OF GOD!

The CHURCH is the salt of the Earth, and the American Church has, overall, lost her saltiness, her savor. We have been exposed, uncovered as one loving prosperity, and living and loving such riches as the prior Kings of the Earth knew not. We have willfully believed that happiness, health and prosperity have become our rights! God has ordained that we are the head, and not the tail.

There is no longer a Word about Sin, for there really is no sin, just principles! God is all inclusive, and God is Love. If there is no sin, then there is no repentance, and we are Earth bound.

Of course, we will fly away to more luxury and peace later, but that is in the by and by. The Blood of Jesus is no longer the pillar of our faith..but instead our pillar is the living of a purpose filled life, and that with your best life NOW! Happiness and Prosperity, along with good health to make you live longer and enjoy it, of course.

The end of the matter and conclusion concerning this sordid and unbiblical church is simple. THE CHURCH NO LONGER NEEDS GOD, or HER GLORIOUS MASTER, THE LORD JESUS! He exists only to serve her, like a butler, and to protect her rights, and of course, she shall never suffer.

When this vision is matured, the Church will realize that she does need God. The church will need Him more than she ever believed she would.

Judgment:Immorality. America and pornographic Hollywood, making billions yearly, importing our filth to nations that still blush, not being Christian. We have elevated sodomy to the halls of congress, and marry homosexuals. We teach our children, by law, the rightness of inclusiveness: that this is natural and must be accepted. We sell sex , millions of times a day on our airwaves, and are awash in sexual enhancement products, and endorse public displays of horrific and blasphemous “art forms”.

It is indeed a river of filth, and shows no signs of abating. Watch one minute of VH1 or MTV. This is our legacy.

Judgment: Murder. Over 50 million innocent children taken (alive) from their mothers wombs; that’s one out of six today in America. Don’t worry, God has covered His eyes, and didn’t see. Violence and death, and the “mass murderer”. This was generally unknown in America, with very few exceptions. It is a spirit.

My own brother was murdered, assassinated. The murderer was never brought to man’s justice. The US government does not hesitate to do so either, if it serves our political interest.

Remember KHADAFI?, and his tent in the sand…and his daughters that were blown to bits by an American cruise missile?

Judgment: Theft. I have written in my Bible, “THE BANKING SPIRIT.” Every element of business has morphed into a predator mentality, from the car dealer, to the investment Banker and your local bank, to the mechanic and Neighbor, Fairness, and doing the right thing has been replaced by deception and greed, to profit. It is a jungle out there, and everyone wants to rip you off. Have you ever felt that way? That’s because theft is rampant…

Judgment: Sorcery. Witchcraft and her covens are growing exponentially. Harry Potter, and some 30 TV shows and more cartoons about the occult are feeding our children a steady diet of satanism, not counting the hundreds of dark video games they devour. Well, as long as they are quiet!

The other side of sorcery is DRUGS: We have joyfully embraced drugs for any and all discomfort or pressure or unhappiness. Psychotropic drugs that “calm the nerves”, are casually dubbed “MEDICATION”; PSYCHOLOGICALLY EQUATING IT WITH REAL CURES, like penicillin, or the Polio cure. It is not. they are drugs…dopa!

The medical practice of the Physician has been reduced to a pill pusher…a pill for everything!It is the chief advertising dollar in America. It is estimated that one in six Americans use Marijuana.

Methamphetamine’s are a plague to mid America. Our prisons are bursting, overcrowded two to one , or worse. Thousands are beheaded and murdered today, as we speak, in Mexico over control of the dealing of this evil lust and addiction inside America.

You cannot tell the difference between the Church, and the World….except that possibly the Church doesn’t drink and party as much, and goes to meeting on Sunday.

RIGHT NOW, AMERICA DOESN’T NEED GOD, NOR DOES THE CHURCH. SHE IS LAODICEAN! SHE IS RICH, AND HAS NEED OF NOTHING.

Hope and Faith

God will provide. He has never forsaken one who has put their trust in Him, never! He has never broken a Promise, never, to any who Love Him, and even to those who call upon His Name!

There is a great division coming however, and it will prove to be a division between those who love Him, or love their own lives more.

How will we respond without prosperity? Will we be, as righteous Job, and still trust and say: “Even though He slay me, yet will I trust in Him!”, or will we be selfish, and despise His chastening, and Him too, when things are no longer? How will we relate to the homeless, the poor?, and especially to Christians that have lost everything? (see Acts 4:32) Will we open or homes, and will we give? Even unto our last cup of meal and oil to cook it with?

Will we give all unto the Lord, no matter the cost, or circumstances? Will we lay our lives down for our brother and sisters, no matter what?..or..will we get all we can, and can all we get? Some will…and the days of Ananias and Sapphira will return again. (see Acts 5:1-11 )

This will end in a purified church. The true Church will be greatly affected, for when we suffer, we stop playing Church, and become the Church.

There will be a shift from institutionalized pew sitters, and the clergy laity model, to the BODY, edifying itself in Love. The “House Church will become the norm, and the professional clergy will dry up for lack of money, and real anointing. The least of the Brethren will become a battle cry, and for those who want Jesus, their compassion’s will abound and increase, even unto abandonment…..and that is what this HOLY company is about.

They will be completely abandoned to Christ, and will impart that spirit. They will take the lead as examples, to minister to a grieving America, and will do so in real Power and Love.

There will again be a difference between the holy and the profane, and it will be obvious.

The catastrophe will be the stepping stone to REVIVAL, but not in the way of REFORMATION. It will be upheaval….a Revolution! It will be a rebirth, a true renewal based on Resurrection Life from Heaven, not reform in Doctrine only.

Many, many will return to Christ, and many will receive Him as Savior, as they behold real Glory and Love. Many will go on in their dead religion, and reject compassion. Many lost will be saved, and there also will be real healing’s and signs, that are indisputable, accompanied by brothers and sisters who want no glory of their own. Holiness will be all about them, and all will see.

This will be an awesome time for those willing to pay the price. We may not have a lot, but the promise is, “God will provide!” - this is a conditional promise however, fulfilled unto those who honor, fear, and Love Him.

Remember these words:

“AS MUCH AS YOU HAVE DONE IT UNTO THESE, THE LEAST OF THESE MY BROTHERS, YOU HAVE DONE IT UNTO ME!”

Jesus will become the rise and fall unto many. Many religious people and false Pastors and Prophets will be exposed in this pressure….Many. Many holy will gain Jesus, and true Salvation in this time. There will be those who give all, and truly please their Master. It will be, as the old novel begins, “THE BEST OF TIMES, AND THE WORST OF TIMES.”

The best for those who fall at His feet, and say: “JESUS IS LORD. IT IS HE, AND HE ALONE WHO IS LORD!” - to the rest, it will be the worst.

God himself is in the center of this “Meltdown”, and it is He who is applying the fire!”

Brother Thomas Watkins

**

sermonindex Jul 18, 2011

Thanks brother Tom for sharing the vision that you had from the Lord. The vision I believe. I believe it was from the Lord. But when you get to the "Why?" section of your post, I think even you would admit that it is your interpretation of things and not necessarily from the Lord. Is that correct? And I'm not saying you are right or wrong as to "Why?".

S

sarahsdream Jul 18, 2011

The Vision was good overall. Bro. David had many good insights from the Lord that have come to pass.

A NT prophet does not "foretell" events. He speaks forth Christ is about the simplest way that I can put it. Many will know what I mean.

If NT prophecy was the same as OT prophecy and NT prophets were judged as OT prophets, then even Bro. David would fail the test, but that is not what NT prophecy is all about.

In Christ,
Sarah

sermonindex Jul 18, 2011

It is a sobering word. Particularly as Aug.2 approaches. We need to be grounded in Christ.

sermonindex Jul 18, 2011

I think the republicans in Washington, DC will cave into the democrats and our president. The situation in Europe is really much worse. It's like where the U.S. will be in 5 years.

I also think the brother that posted the vision about the poor people may be right. Our best days may in fact be behind us, and they wont be coming back.

sermonindex Jul 18, 2011

It is a sobering word. Particularly as Aug.2 approaches. We need to be grounded in Christ.

While I do believe things will either stay the same or get worse at least for awhile, I also do not put much stock in people's "prophecies and visions".

The economy is cyclical, it has always been that way. There are very real reasons for why it tanked, and why it has not revived yet. These reasons are fixable, the question is "does anyone want to fix it?"

OK... I'll bite... what is Aug 2nd?

Krispy

sermonindex Jul 18, 2011

August 2nd is my mom's birthday.

S

sarahsdream Jul 18, 2011

It's politics season. Neither party wants to be blamed for the U.S. getting a lower credit rating or default.

They will play their chess game and make each other sweat and in the end the debt ceiling will be raised, but at what cost to everyday people?

Our best days of outward prosperity may be behind us, but our best days as Servants of the Lord could be in front of us. It is our choice.

In Christ,
Sarah

sermonindex Jul 19, 2011

Thanks again brother Tom for sharing that vision. And also I agree with your take on things that have happened and will happen in the U.S.

Here's a guy whose financial advice I trust. I worked with him for 2 years. He was a YWAM guy many years ago. He has a free financial newsletter now with over 1 million subscribers:

From John Mauldin:

As I write, Europe is starting to unravel. This is going to be much worse than 2008, at least as far as Europe is concerned, and odds are high that it will be very bad for the US. And the markets are still acting as if the problems in Europe can be resolved. The recent bank stress tests were a joke, as they assumed no Greek or Irish defaults. This simply can’t be. There is a banking crisis of massive proportions in our future.

As Lacy notes, we are testing the economic theories of three (I think von Mises should be added) dead white guys. The dominant theories are being shown to be wrong. The sooner we acknowledge that the better. But don’t hold your breath waiting for the major economic schools to come to grips with their failure.

This is a real problem, and there is just no way to avoid it. I wish I had more positive things to say.

Your trying to figure this out analyst,

John Mauldin, Editor
Outside the Box
JohnMauldin@2000wave.com

sermonindex Jul 19, 2011

Time to seriously take these verses to heart.

sermonindex Jul 19, 2011

Krispy,

August 2 is the day the debt will reach the limit set out in American law, allowing for the possibility of default. This will not really happen, since the debt ceiling is purely an abstraction... nothing actual will happen to the economy that day... and it has been raised 10 times in the past 10 years. However, it does give politicians of all stripes the opportunity to needlessly bicker and blame the other party for all of America's problems, while promoting their own interests through the rhetoric of "no compromise". Really, it's amazing that anyone would have the energy for all of this.

sermonindex Jul 19, 2011

" But when you get to the "Why?" section of your post, I think even you would admit that it is your interpretation of things and not necessarily from the Lord. Is that correct? And I'm not saying you are right or wrong as to "Why?"....................Endzone

I prefaced the WHY? portion with "Implications and Thoughts", which are obviously my take on the vision. Yes, you are right. They are not necessarily from the Lord.

I think that what we are witnessing is much more than an isolated financial event. I believe that we as a church, the international body of Christ; those that are, and will be BORN AGAIN, are headed into the great Tribulation spoken of by Jesus.

I also think that America will fall as a Nation, being defeated militarily. This will set up events for the world wide take-over of the anti-Christ....and I sense that the time is much, much shorter than people believe it could happen. I do not know the time.

I sorrow for the suffering coming upon so many innocent people...so many. The Bible says that 1/3rd of the EARTH will die...today that would be well over two billion. I also thing that of these, about 100 million Americans will be slain.

The implications are too dire to think upon....but...in the midst of this, I am assured that the Church will rise to heights of glory never imagined, given much power and graces, and accomplish even greater works.

The church will know that Jesus is Lord, God almighty, and power belongs unto God.

C

ccchhhrrriiisss Jul 19, 2011

I think that it is important to consider America in terms of the history of the world.

The United States is a very young nation. It is 235 years old (and its Constitution is 224 years old). This is especially true when it is compared with nations from the Old World (such as England, which became unified as a nation in 927 AD -- 1084 years ago). As Leonard Ravenhill said about America's uniqueness, "America is a nation without a people." There is no ethnic or racial makeup regarding national identity as "America." The nationality consists of multiple races and ethnic groups and the term "American" is based upon citizenship and nothing more.

Moreover, America has only been a superpower since World War II. That is a period of about 70 years. In terms of empires (if one would even want to label America as such), America is still in its infancy. This is startling when we consider the duration of other empires. The "superpower" status of empires like that of the British, Spanish, Portuguese, Roman, Islamic, Greek, Babylonian, Assyrian, Mongol, etc... -- lasted for centuries (or longer).

However, since the US is the world's preeminent "superpower," it is easy to point at it as if it were they enemy of Christianity or, in a secular sense, the advancement of the rest of the world. Following the end of the Cold War, the bulk of the nations of the world lay within a new type of power equilibrium. There is no bipolar fight for power, territory or political allegiance. This could be a factor in a future attempt to conglomerate the nations together under a united military or economic agreement as indicated in Revelation chapter 13.

Contrary to popular sentiment, the world may not unite under a "one world government" in prophecy, but under a confederation type of government for which the Anti-Christ will rise to power. Separate nations will still exist. In my estimation, this sounds more like the European Union type of governing. It is the binding of independent nations under a common set of laws and agreements.

America is unique in that its Constitution does not allow for ANY international document, law, treaty, agreement or ruling to take preeminence over the Federal or State constitutions. This is one of the great criticisms of the American role in the United Nations. The US largely funds the operations and security expenses for that organization yet dismisses most of the decisions as non-binding (because of Constitutional supremacy). Therefore, for America to play a role in such an international confederation (considered in terms of Eschatology), its government would not be able to exist in its present form. So, as Brother Tom said, America (at least in its current form) may very well come to an untimely end BEFORE the rise of the Anti-Christ.

Now, in regard to the initial post, it is amazing how "relative" the term "poverty" might be. In his sermon HOLY GROUND, David Wilkerson spoke about the dreadful flaws of the "prosperity" message. Brother David mentioned how the "luxuries" of yesterday have a tendency to become the "necessities" of today. He mentions how indoor plumbing (such as hot and cold running water) was once a luxury but has become a necessity in modern times. The same can be said of other items, like a refrigerator, stove, oven, electric lights, automobiles, etc...

During the Great Depression and through the rations of the Second World War, Americans endured quite well under difficult circumstances. They learned to make the most of what they had and to "do without" for the rest. As a young man, I have always enjoyed speaking with those who are older. I have enjoyed hearing many elderly friends tell me about life during that time period. Families and churches often "pulled together" because they had no other option.

This morning, I saw an interesting article. It was an analysis of the word "poor" and the status of those who are supposedly in "poverty" in the United States. The article shows how current US agencies define these terms.

The term "poverty" is obviously relative to the conditions of the individual who thinks of the word. I remember thinking about how "poor" I was during college when, at times, I lived off of ramen noodles, crackers and peanut butter sandwiches as I worked my way through school (until I was awarded a major scholarship that funded my room and board). Yet, relatively speaking, a young man living in the bush of Africa may have thought of me as "rich." After all, I owned two vehicles, a computer, plenty of clothes, and lived in a nice, fully furnished dormitory with air conditioning and a bathroom.

The analysis mentions that the US Census Bureau paints the American definition of "poverty" with a very broad brush so that it includes more than 40 Million individuals.

Now, the average "poor" family in the United States lives in a home that is in "good repair" and has air conditioning, washers and dryers, many kitchen appliances and cable or satellite television. On average, those families in "poverty" own two cars, have ALL three of their daily meals, own coffee makers, microwaves, ceiling fans, DVD players, two televisions, video game systems, desks, beds with adequate mattresses, couches, chairs, carpeting, cellular phones, computers, high speed internet, etc... Moreover, given vast entitlement programs in the United States, many of these individuals live with the cost of their housing, electricity, water, sewage, etc... paid for through government welfare programs.

Here is a link to a chart showing the results of amenities enjoyed by today's "poor" in America:

http://tinyurl.com/americanpoor

I remember visiting the "government projects" every Saturday and Sunday for evangelism during college and seeing how many of these "poor" lived better than I did.

Like I said, this idea of "poverty" is very different than the notion of "poverty" in many nations. This definition is also very different than those Americans who endured through the difficulties of the Great Depression.

I suppose that many are living the "good ol' days" -- because the days are VERY good for them. It has created an entitlement mentality in that many are dissatisfied even with all of these luxuries. Their appetite is never filled; Their thirst for more is never quenched. In accord with the reference from A TALE OF TWO CITIES in the title of BrotherTom's post, these days are the "best of times" and "the worst of times" concurrently for many individuals.

Yet what does it matter? The New Testament teaches us that we should be content with what God has provided for us. Now, we should endeavor to take care of the needs of our families -- or risk being "worse than an infidel" (I Timothy 5:8). Yet "godliness with contentment" should be our goal in regard to such things (I Timothy 6:6). We should never covet the things of this world -- which I believe is the great underlying error of the "prosperity" message. It literally instructs its adherents to covet the things in this life and find happiness and contentment with them (rather than, like Abraham, we refuse to build a home as we wait for a "city whose builder and maker is God"). Such longing breeds lust: The lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life (I John 2:16).

I believe that we are "pilgrims" passing through this world. I used to walk through the halls of my high school and colleges and observe everyone else walking around. I felt so "apart" from the rest. I literally felt like a "pilgrim" just wandering through the "wilderness of this world" in this life. I still feel that way -- regardless if I am at home, work, walking around the neighborhood, jogging around The Dish here in Palo Alto or just out shopping.

The difficulty is trying to determine how to bridge any supposed gap between being a "pilgrim" and an "ambassador." We are Christ's ambassadors to a lost and dying world (II Corinthians 5:20). We still must live in this world of our temporary citizenship, grow in our relationship with Christ, provide for our families and introduce Christ to others.

The good news is that, like Paul, we should have a testimony that "to live is Christ." It is a difficult thing to struggle with when we are so aware that this world is not our home. We long to see our Savior face-to-face...and that cannot happen on this side of the "glass darkly" of eternity (I Corinthians 13:12). Yet that admonition that "Godliness with contentment is great gain" (I Timothy 6:6) causes me to realize that I can be content in this life even though my heart longs for my eternal home in Christ. That contentment is not laziness or complacency, for we long for godliness and an even greater intimacy with Christ.

sermonindex Jul 19, 2011

Chris if you live in Palo Alto, no wonder you think we are all rich. Just kidding. I haven't been there since the 3 months I spent at Oakland Army Base on a merchant ship. Very nice area there though.

C

ccchhhrrriiisss Jul 19, 2011

Hi Endzone,

Chris if you live in Palo Alto, no wonder you think we are all rich. Just kidding. I haven't been there since the 3 months I spent at Oakland Army Base on a merchant ship. Very nice area there though.

Ahhh...yes, this is a beautiful area. The weather is nearly perfect by most estimations of the idea of "perfect weather." But I understand what you mean by the term "rich." Palo Alto is one of the wealthiest communities in America. The zip code where we live has an average home price of about $1.8 Million

This community is highly educated and very wealthy. Yet, ironically, there are even some people in this community who think that they are "poor." And, of course, we live in an area that is quite intolerant of Christianity.

Thankfully, God has His people in even these sort of areas who have not "bowed their knees to Baal" like the 7000 mentioned in I Kings chapter 19. We have found some good believers to fellowship with. In fact, my wife and I were recently able to fellowship with a good brother from SermonIndex following a meeting at a local church. We have also been blessed to visit with a couple of other local brothers from SermonIndex as well.

M

mikey2 Jul 19, 2011

From Chris:

America is unique in that its Constitution does not allow for ANY international document, law, treaty, agreement or ruling to take preeminence over the Federal or State constitutions.

I am not too sure about that.

The Supremacy Clause

That is the common name given to Article VI, Clause 2 of the United States Constitution, which reads:

“This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.”

Now, check out some of the treaties in the last 50 years. So, if the government cannot pass something through legislation, they can always go for a treaty.

List of U.S. Treaties
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_treaties

And this is what happens when Government, (who wants to be our Nanny) thinks they know better than you how to spend your money or make other decisions for you.

Nanny Steven Chu: “We Are Taking Away a Choice that Lets You Waste Your Own Money!”

http://paulgregorysblog.blogspot.com/2011/07/nanny-steven-chu-we-are-taking-away.html

But, in all of this mess, we still have to trust the Lord,

Mike

S

SimpleLiving Jul 19, 2011

I'm in agreement with sarahsdream (from another thread). They'll raise the debt ceiling... yet again.

And, as KrispyKreme mentioned, I do believe there's a cyclical element to the economy. However. I also believe a lot of this has been orchestrated, too. I don't think the Dems and Reps are as viciously opposed to one another behind the scenes as they are in front of the cameras. I also believe there's an "elite" group behind them both. Decisions have long been made already. Many of them years, and decades, ago. They just bide their time and let the news play out the soap opera of it all.

Saying that, many folks jump to the "conspiracy theory" accusation, and that's fine. I'm not out to convince anyone. I'm not worried and my faith is in God alone. Nothing can happen without His permission. But, much of what the "conspiracy theorists" have been saying for decades has actually been found to be true, so... each person to their own. In the end, it makes no difference.

S

sarahsdream Jul 19, 2011

Yes, Simpleliving, after all their posturing and bloviating, they will raise it, but the American people will have lost something else. Either higher taxes will be on the menu or more debt, or what is most likely, BOTH.

Regarding conspiracy theories.

Conspiracy theories are always theories until proven as fact and then they are Conspiracy fact.

Like Hitler invading Poland. He conspired to trick Nevil Chamberlain and Britain, which he did successfully and then invaded Poland, anyway.

Conspiracy in and of itself is not a bad word. It is just a word with a definition.

Conspiracies take place all the time. People conspire (secretly) to do something (usually evil) but in the strictest sense of the definition you could conspire to do something good like a surprise birthday party. But normally, conspiracy is used in the negative sense because it implies doing things "in darkness, secretly".

The Pharisees conspired to kill Jesus. No one would believe that was going to happen, but Jesus knew it would.

But you are right Simpleliving, politicians are only puppets of the powerbrokers and uber rich people in the world that run the financial institutions and companies. One of the things that President Kennedy wanted to do was abolish the Federal Reserve: Need I say more?

We all know that Congress has been taken over by lobbyists which the current President promised to ban. You could say, Congress has been taken over by money (bribes) instead of lobbyists. I know that there are good lobbyists and they are needed to combat the bad lobbyists that are trying to get us all to eat genetically modified food or whatever. Good lobbyists are an added voice for the people, but if we had no lobbyists at all,then we could get back to the elected officials being the voice of the people and being accountable to the people. But this is not the case today. They seem to be more accountable to lobbyists. Follow the money.

For instance SEC investigators that are suppose to prosecute Financial Institutions that break the law usually only slap them on the wrist and then they end up working for these big financial firms like Goldman-Sachs. People from Goldman-Sachs then end up working for the government (Treasury Secretary). Everything in politics and business is a revolving door. You scratch my back and I will scratch yours. Senator's aides become lobbyists for Defense Contractors. They all really help each other, despite what they want you to believe.

Representatives and Senators really don't have to worry about the people getting upset with them. They voted in their own retirement program, their own healthcare and their own raises and if they are voted out of Congress by angry people, they can always cash in their ticket with their favorite lobbyist who they helped while they were in office.

It should be no surprise to anyone that most members of Congress are multi-millionaires. Just a fact.

The world is not fair and will never be fair. Jesus knows this and we need to know this, too.

Trust in Him and put no confidence in man.

Dishonest men would take exception with that verse. They would say that our God is cynical and should not be telling us to "put no confidence in men".

No,,, God is realistic and we need to be, too.

Sarah

C

ccchhhrrriiisss Jul 19, 2011

Hi mikey2...

From Chris:
America is unique in that its Constitution does not allow for ANY international document, law, treaty, agreement or ruling to take preeminence over the Federal or State constitutions.

I am not too sure about that.
The Supremacy Clause
That is the common name given to Article VI, Clause 2 of the United States Constitution, which reads:
“This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.”
Now, check out some of the treaties in the last 50 years. So, if the government cannot pass something through legislation, they can always go for a treaty.
List of U.S. Treaties
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_treaties

In other words, the "Supremacy Clause," as Article VI - Clause 2 is often referred, states that the federal Constitution is the supreme "law of the land" and, thus, no treaty, law or agreement can supersede the statutes contained within it. Of course, this clause also allows for international treaties to be made -- but they can only be constitutionally legal if they do not supersede or conflict with what is found within the federal Constitution.

The Supremacy Clause gives the Federal Government the power to form international treaties that the States must recognize IF (and only IF) those treaties are constitutional in nature. Moreover, the 10th Amendment indicates that the States have sovereign power over anything not expressly mentioned or implied within the Federal Constitution. Thus, if a liberal state legislature were to pass a law allowing for "homosexual marriages," a more conservative state does not have to recognize it since it is within their power to do so.

Also: If a law or treaty is passed by the Federal Government and is deemed as extra-constitutional act that imposes upon state sovereignty, the State can declare this and make an appeal to the courts that the law as a violation of the 10th Amendment. This is currently the situation in regard to the recent health care legislation and international environmental agreements.

What does this mean?

I brought it up to point out that the US Constitution prohibits international entities (like the United Nations or International Court of Justice) from determining or interfering with federal or state laws. The federal government can make an international treaty as long as it is not unconstitutional. States would then be obliged to observe that law. However, it is common for states to fight certain treaties in courts. The environmental Kyoto Protocol during the 1990s was never passed partially because of such constitutional supremacy questions.

The point is that, under the Constitution, the United States cannot enter into a "confederation" type of international government that would cede powers to an international figure. While trade agreements can be made by our federal government, no decision can be binding unless it is agreed upon by the US government and passes Constitutional scrutiny.

This is different from the European Union, in which many monetary and policy decisions are decided by a central, international institutions. In fact, the EU currently has SEVEN institutions that make policy for the European Union members -- including Court of Justice of the European Union, the European Parliament, the Council of the European Union, the European Commission, the European Council, the European Central Bank and the European Court of Auditors. When a decision is made by these agencies, the member states are obliged to abide by those decisions.

This cannot happen in the United States. If the UN passed a rule that watering your lawn should be illegal and a waste of water, then the US would merely ignore it. The UN does not have the power to meddle in national or state laws UNLESS the elected federal government passes a treaty that agrees to it (and only if it isn't a violation of the Constitution). Thus, an international figure like the Anti-Christ could not, under our Constitution, stand up and take preemption in determining US laws. So, I agree with BrotherTom that the United States -- as we know it -- will probably not exist by that time or cannot participate in any such secession of legal authority.

I hope that this clarifies the point that I was trying to make.