I have no relationship to the law. It does not apply to me.

Great post tuc.
Theology is perfect and Biblical.
The illustrations too are very accurate and clear.
I take that you do not sin any more.

"Children, Obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right. Honor thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise;) That it may be well with thee, and Thou mayest live long on the earth."

Ephesians 6:1-3.

A good post tuc, it helps much to hear what you believe, for there are so many voices try to take it away from you. Again, thanks I needed that.

Romans 8:1-9 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Praise God I am no longer under the warden and his guards. I have been set free. I have the Spirit of Christ in me now and it is by His work in me that makes me pleasing to our Father.

Not only am I our of prison, but I am dead to sin and resurrected to new life. Even if I fall into the old man mold and sin, it no longer has a hold over me, for we have the Advocate with the Father that set us free in the first place. Grace, Free at last.

Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Justified by the Faith of Christ, set free to live the life of Christ that is in me.

This wonderful mystery revealed to His saints now.

Colossians 1:26-29 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

By His working, every man perfect as we are in Christ not my own perfection but His, presenting me to the Father, "Perfect": Phillip

I think it is important for us to understand the distinction between the civil, ceremonial and moral Law in the OT. If we do not make that distinction we can fall into a form of "semi-antinomianism" as Christians.

The Bible is crystal clear that as Christians we have absolutely no relation to the civil and ceremonial aspects of the OT Law. But the moral Law still applies for us to keep in mind and abide by through the Spirit's power. Areadymind pointed out a good example of this principle from Eph 6(Other examples are in Rom.13:8-10 and James 2:11-12)).

So we see throughout the New Testament epistles that the moral Law still applies to us. The NT writers warn us over and over regarding the practice of "law-breaking". Romans 8:7-8 tells us, "the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God."

One main difference for us as Christians is that we have a clearer understanding of the spiritual nature of the moral Law than what was written in the OT. In the sermon on the mount Christ clearly explained the spiritual nature of the moral Law so that we would not walk in darkness regarding it. We have a higher standard to abide by than what was commonly "understood" prior to Christ.

Another main difference is that we now have the Spirit's power abiding in us that enables us to keep it
(Rom.8:1-11).

And now we can call it "The Law of Christ"(1Cor.9:21). That law of Christ is essentially the same moral Law from the OT but understood better and kept better by true believers in Christ. So we are not "lawless" if we are true Christians.

But as to not having any relation to the wrath and condemnation which the Law brings, I completely agree with the OP.

Oracio: You called attention to a difference in moral law and ceremonial or civil law and stated, if I understand you correctly, that we are no longer bound in any way, shape, or form to the civil or ceremonial portion of the law but still live under the moral law. One statement that you made is that "the law of Christ is essentially the same moral Law from the OT but understood better and kept better by true believers in Christ. So we are not 'lawless' if we are true Christians." I would ask us to consider a couple of items that I think pertain to this discussion.

First the Bible does not make any distinction between nor does it call out any distinction between "moral" and "civil" law. I believe this distinction is a construct of man applied to the Bible. I do understand that teachers have used Biblical evidence to try to weed out what is moral and what is civil or ceremonial, but I do not see the distinction as a Biblical one but rather as a human one.

That being said, look at Matthew chapter 5 where Jesus discusses what we might call the "moral" law.

Mat 5:17-48 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. (18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (19) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (20) For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. (21) Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: (22) But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. (23) Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; (24) Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. (25) Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. (26) Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing. (27) Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: (28) But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. (29) And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. (30) And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. (31) It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: (32) But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery. (33) Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: (34) But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: (35) Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. (36) Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. (37) But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil. (38) Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: (39) But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. (40) And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. (41) And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. (42) Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. (43) Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. (44) But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; (45) That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. (46) For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? (47) And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? (48) Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Notice that Jesus came not to destroy the law but rather to fulfill and that until the end not one jot or tittle will pass from the law until all of the law is fulfilled. A couple of things that I notice. First Jesus makes no distinction between the moral or civil law. He simply refers to the law and says that not one little part will pass from the law until all be fulfilled. But we know that Jesus is the fulfillment of the law. Remember that He was witnessed by the law and the prophets. What many call the ceremonial law presents a beautiful picture of Christ that we see totally fulfilled in His person and in what He has done.

Now Jesus goes on to quote some portions of the law and present the fact that the letter of the law is not God's holy standard but only in imperfect picture of God's standard. For example murder vs hatred and adultery vs lust.

So we see that even what many call the "moral" part of the law is still only a very imperfect picture at best of standard of holiness that God is and requires of all who enter His kingdom.

So just as Jesus fulfilled the so called "ceremonial" portion of the law so too He is the fulfillment of the so called "moral" portion of the law. When I have my righteousness through Christ Jesus, when I am sanctified and set apart by Him, He is my righteousness and His Holy Spirit is my guide. As a spirit born again I will follow the leading of the Holy Spirit where moral life is concerned. I don't refrain from murder because murder is wrong is God's eyes. I don't refrain from adultery because adultery is wrong in God's eyes. I don't refrain from pornography because it is wrong in God's eyes. I refrain from doing these things because it is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me. If I find myself missing the mark in some area my spirit grieves within me and I know that I have not lived from the Spirit but rather from my flesh and I quickly repent. (As I did a few moments ago when I found myself grumbling to myself about something my wife did. She was not present but I immediately knew my grumbling was not in keeping with Christ in me through the Holy Spirit's conviction and I repented before God.) You see to live in Christ or better put to have Him live through us will be to have Him be through us the fulfillment of the whole law, spirit and letter.

I also think it detrimental to the body to see the NT as simply a superior form of the OT law that we are still under bondage to keep. If I am keeping the law then I am doing it out of my own effort and it will produce the same death in me. But if I allow the literal fulfillment of the law to live out life through me through the person of the Holy Spirit then I am no longer doing ANYTHING of myself and I will through this death to self find life in Him.

Twayne wrote,
"So just as Jesus fulfilled the so called "ceremonial" portion of the law so too He is the fulfillment of the so called "moral" portion of the law. When I have my righteousness through Christ Jesus, when I am sanctified and set apart by Him, He is my righteousness and His Holy Spirit is my guide."

No disagreement there. I did not write that we can or should keep the moral law to attain a righteousness before God and earn a place in heaven through our lawkeeping. Christ fulfilled the perfect requirement of that law on our behalf. But that does not mean we can now be lawless. That's what the NT makes very clear.

Although we are set free from the legal punishment of the law which is hell, we are still commanded to obey the law through the Spirit's enabling. Jesus said, if you love Me keep my commandments. What are His commandments. We see clearly in the NT that His commandments are "you shall not commit adultery/or lust, murder/or hate, have unforgiveness, use profane speech, get drunk, etc.etc.

If we have a problem with and/or despise those commandments we have a problem with God's Word and God's mind and holiness. For the child of God those commandments are something he delights in, like Paul speaks of in Romans 7 and David speaks of in Psalm 1. Those commandments are part of the nature and character of God, which our new man loves and desires to be like above all else.

This may break some bubbles but in the NT epistles we DO have a set of RULES we are commanded to abide by. Over and over we are exhorted and commanded as Christians to abstain from all form of wickedness or ungodliness and walk in the fruit of the Spirit. Not my word but God's.

ginnyrose wrote,
"What's important to say regarding this topic is that MANY say they are not under the law who live wicked lives in sin. Such are indeed under the law until they repent and follow Christ as a true disciple led by the Spirit. If we don't proclaim and demonstrate the effect of the grace of God as true righteousness by the life of Christ and power not to fulfill the lust of the flesh by grace, then many will end up twofold the children of hell thinking that they are safe and under grace in their sin. All those who are lawless and disobedient need to hear the condemnation of their lives and the claim of God's rightful authority over us by the law so they will be persuaded to repent and flee to Christ for true grace."

Amen dear sister, couldn't have put it better. Your whole post was refreshing.

I think growing one got it right.

The argument Paul uses in Rom 7 is so clear. We are not under the law in its condemning effects if the flesh is dead. Dead flesh does not sin. That means that when we sin, we are under condemnation until we repent.

Another thought came to mind. Those who are apart from Christ are also under the dominion of sin and have no power to keep God's law. They are under the authority and control of sin, which is transgression of the law(1John 3:4). But in Christ we are set free from the dominion of sin and are given the Spirit to be able to fulfill the moral law in our walk. We will not fullfill it perfectly in this life but to a certain measure we can fulfill it by His grace. That's what Romans 6 and 8 points out. What the law could not do because of our weakness, Christ has accomplished through His life, death, and resurrection; and by His Spirit indwelling us. His resurrected life is now made ours by faith. Through that resurrected life we can have victory of the dominion of sin which is lawlessness.

Also Twayneb is right. When Paul speaks of the law he speaks of the whole law ceremanial and moral. We see that in 1 Tim 1: 9,10 as Growingone mentioned. Paul here speaks of the moral law. but again the only qualification to escape the condemnation the law brings is to be in Christ, led by the Spirit. since we can not serve two masters, we can not be in Christ and in the flesh at the same time, for one will by nature oppose the other.

There is no distinction between the civil, ceremonial and moral Law, Law is Law, If I break any of the Law, it is sin.

God does not sit and judge, Oh, they don't keep the fourth commandment, I will apply that to the ceremonial Law, it does not carry a greater penalty than 1 or 2. Any breaking of any law is a choice on the law breaker, no matter what we deem it, civil, ceremonial, or moral. If it is one of the 10 commandments, it is sin. If it is adultry, is it moral or one of the ceremonial laws that say to kill the adulterer.

We are not under any Law, only ONE applies to the Born again Christian. LOVE.

Ok, which Law did I break, it does not matter it is all Law.
One Jot or tittle is in all the Law. I don't want to break any Law because I love Jesus Christ. That is where my soul mind wants to be, With the Mind I serve the Law of God In my heart, with the flesh, well you make the Judgement.

In Christ who fulfilled the whole Law by whom I now am as He is, which establishes the fulfilled Law in us.

Phillip

I think Oracio here is when people will disagree on this thread. When you said we do not fulfill the law perfectly in this life.The question arise, what do we do when we fail to fufill the law perfectly? do we repent or do we just go on believing we are not under condemnation? Those who say we are no longer under the law will find no necessity to repent, but if you notice the argument the Apostle is using is " We are no longer under the law because the flesh is dead" Since dead flesh does not sin, then there is no need for the law. But if we sin, that proves that the flesh is not dead, and therefore we are still under the law. For the law is made to restrain sinners 1 Tim: 1: 9,10

You are right Christinyou,
Paul says we are not under any law, but you seem to forget the ground upon which he builds his argument. He says we are not under the law because the flesh is dead. Dead flesh does not sin.

tuc,
Do you then believe in "Sinless perfection"?

Christinyou,
In your first post I followed your thought until you said this: "Even if I fall into the old man mold and sin, it no longer has a hold over me"

I just want to direct your attention to the argument Paul puts forth in Rom 7 in the OP.

He says: the old nature and sin no longer has hold over me because it is dead.

But you said: " If I fall into the mold of the old man and sin, it no longer has a hold over me."

Your statement cantains a contraditon, if it has no hold over you, you can not fall into its mold.
But if you fall into its mold, then it has a hold over you. It is the one or the other. It can not be both.