Regarding signs and wonders. A question.

Blaine:

A couple of things come to mind. First there is ample scriptural evidence that the original 12 apostles and even Paul were allowed by God to operate in an unprecedented level of signs and wonders. One need only to look up the word "signs" in a KJV concordance to find ten or so scriptures attesting this fact. So we know that signs and wonders accompanied the early church.

But the question to today must then be considered. Two scriptures that come to mind pretty quickly are these.

First Mark 16:15-18

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. (16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; (18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. Mar 16:19-20 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. (20) And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Jesus did not say that these signs would follow them that are original 12 apostles and Paul, but rather He stated that these signs would follow them that believe. I am reminded of an event recorded in "The Life of Charles F. Parham" (available online as a free pdf download) when his water was poisoned and he drank. He immediately knew something was wrong with it and did not drink again. However the water was analyzed and the one drink should have killed him immediately. Yet he had no harmful effects. A definite example of verse 18. It is apparent to me from the words Jesus used and from examples in our own time that this is the case.

The second scripture was 1 Corinthians 12:7-14

But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. (8) For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; (9) To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; (10) To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: (11) But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. (12) For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. (13) For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (14) For the body is not one member, but many.

I will preface this comment by saying that I am not at all interested in a cessationalist or non-cessationalist argument. I read here that the gifts of the Holy Spirit include working of miracles, healings, etc. We know that the Holy Spirit has not been taken back and that we can be filled with the same Holy Spirit as was sent by Jesus and recorded in Acts 2. We know that Paul goes on in context to teach that all these gifts are needed and that none should be sought exclusively at the expense of the others. While God may choose to use me in a gift of healing he may choose to use you in prophecy and both are vital to the proper functioning of the body as a whole. I find no scripture that teaches that these gifts have been withdrawn.

A third thing that comes to mind is John 14:11-16

Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. (12) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. (13) And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. (14) If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. (15) If ye love me, keep my commandments. (16) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

First I find the promise of doing greater works than Christ is made to believers and not simply to 13 men. Second I find the promise that the Comforter is sent to abide with us forever. So to me it seems that if the Holy Spirit is withdrawn that means that time is no more. Interestingly many believe the withdrawal of the Holy Spirit signals the end of all things and the wrath of God poured out.

These are just a few passages and thoughts to ponder.

Oh, a further thought. The fact that there will be an increase of lying signs and wonders would indicate that there is also the operation of the true. How can you counterfeit something that does not exist in reality?

We do truly need spiritual discernment in this hour.

hi, God wrought special miracles by paul.... the shadow of peter... silver and gold have we not but such as we have we give to thee in the name of Jesus rise up and walk and he went walking and leaping.we do not operate in the miraculous because we dont need to in our society if someone is healed the preacher would be the most suprised. i have seen many miracles in the past but God is tired of sharing glory with a knucklehead preacher.the world wide ministry of jimp is what i wanted at one time but it is the world wide ministry of Jesus Christ or nothing. aa allen had creative miracles that would blow your mind as a drunk.on the mission field they pray until God moves. God has the same power ,but he cannot even trust us to get along with each other without miracles... how haughty would we be if we had miracles and healings in our ministry.jimp

Brothers, I appreciate your input on this subject. Travis, thank you for sharing the Word with us.

I know that many in the Body of Christ are skeptical of any signs and wonders because of the strange fire that has broke out in some places, but there is a reason why we do not see signs and wonders taking place very much any more unlike what is occuring in many of the third world countries as the Word of God is being preached.

Jesus could do no mighty works in his own home town because of the unbelief of the people. We say that we want revival, we want the power of God to be manifest, and then when it does happen, it is usally attributed as being a counterfeit, because after all that passed away with the early church.

Signs and wonders will occur with the preaching of the gospel. Jesus Christ is the power and wisdom of God. When Jesus is preached and the Holy Spirit is allowed to have His way, then God will confirm His Word. Signs and wonders should not be the main emphasis, it is the preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ that is the power of God to save, heal, and deliver men.

Mighty signs and wonders followed the preaching of men like John G. Lake and Smith Wigglesworth because they did not limit God, and the Lord found vessels that He could display His power through. God is looking for men that He can flow through that will stay humble and will not try to build their ministry on the gifts that He has freely given for the building up of the Body of Christ. Today, many men that are used by God in signs and wonders are put on pedestals, and unfortunatly many believe the publicity and the ministry becomes all about them.

Lord, give us men that know the power of the cross, crucified men and women that will give you all the glory, that you can display your mighty power through.

Mike

These days I expect very little from Churchians that claim much miracle working, as I rarely find any Word or scripture being used with the miracle working. I find I discern most foolishness to be attached to the friends of the Adversary, among the sons of disobedience.

Yet I know that the Ruach haKodesh is among us, and when we pray, we are powerful, and things happen.

The best times for me is when the Holy One calls me during some pending disaster to pray mightily with all those other Believers praying against that disaster, and I FEEL the movement of the joined prayers, and SEE evidence that Abba answers our prayers.

One feels blessed to join in with others across the world, lifting up voice and hand to Adonai, and find that something awful that has happened, or was to happen has been miraculously ameliorated.

Q

I keep hearing in this forum that a wicked and adulterous generation ask for a miracle.

This sentence is what stuck in my mind the most, Didn't Jesus rebuke the Pharisees for doing the same thing?

In my church here in germany one of the most common signs that the holy spirit works is that of conviction and repentance and breaking. We have people confessing and repenting sins almost every week. We have very long sermons and the word of god has time to work and to crush the conscience of the people. It happens very often, that people start to cry or collapse sometimes during the meeting.

We have very few altar-calls. I think in the past two years we had one or two altar calls. Our pastor says, that if the preacher does give an altar call, usually the holy spirit has already given three or four altar calls and the people were not obedient.

It also happens very often, that people get delivered from demons during the repentance. God delivers them sometimes without anyone laying hands on them or praying for them (we do that of course, but it happens also without doing that). especially in the last month this increases more and more.

So I can say that there are definitely signs and wonders following, although I know that there are many more signs that we never experienced. But this seem to be very good signs, because the people are totally changed and they are free from sin. this is a good fruit.

Krispy,

I have seen the Lord move many times to prevent a disaster from happening. As a matter of fact, I wouldn't even be writing this if it wasn't for the keeping power of God.

In 1992 there Hurricane Lily had already done much damage and was heading for Louisiana. Many people were evacuating Lake Charles La. and moving further north as it looked like the storm would hit us head on. We had been tracking the storm and even the day before it hit the decision had been made to begin shutting down the Citgo Refinery where I work. I later learned that this was taking place throughout La and Southeast Texas. At about 10:00 P.M Wednesday night the storm began to take a more easterly course which took Lake Charles out of harm's way. As the storm approached the coast it began to weaken. The wind speeds were up to 145 m.p.h. and there was nothing to slow the storm down, because it was still over warm water. The meteorologists were completely baffled and the story in the paper the next day was that this is the first hurricane that they had ever seen implode before it hit land. The wind speed actually decreased from 145 to 100 m.p.h.

This is an excerpt of the article that appeared in the Lake Charles American Press the day after the storm hit:

WEAKENING OF STORM CONFOUNDS EXPERTS

"Stephen K. Rinhard, head meteorologist at the National Weather Service's Lake Charles forecast office, said that Hurricane Lili is the first storm that he's ever seen "implode" as it approached the coast."

"I've seen storms explode before, but to my knowledge this one is the first I've seen do this," he said. Hurrican Opal in 1995 is an example of a hurricane that exploded as it approached the coast." But in an overnight transformation even the forecasters could not fully explain, Lili weakened from a 145-mph, Category 4 hurricane to a Category 2."

"And after its center crossed land at Marsh Island, the storm's winds dropped again, falling by midday to 75 mph, barely a hurricane."

"A category 4 storm could have created a life threatening storm surge of up to 25 feet. Instead, more manageable surges of 6 to 10 feet blew in."

"This storm went to a Category 2 before it came inland and that kept the storm surge to 5 to 10 feet in Vermillion Bay. If it had to happen, that was the best place for it because there is a lot of buffer around the bay, Rinard said."

I believe that this disaster was averted as a direct result of the prayers of the saints.

Another time I was working the evening shift at the plant and we noticed a large vapor cloud that was moving into our unit. This vapor cloud was the result of a propane line that split open. We have furnaces in our unit, and we knew that it was only a matter of minutes before this vapor cloud would hit one of the furnaces, and there would be a violent explosion. We all took off running away from the unit. We found out later that for some unknown reason the wind shifted and the vapor cloud was being directed right between two units that had furnaces. Even the plant manager, who was not a Christian, had to admit that there was a higher power that shifted the wind and prevented a disaster from taking place.

Before I started working an inside console job operating the units, I was an outside operator in the Sulphuric Acid Plant. I was making a round one day and part of my job was to run an acid dilution on the 98% acid to determine the acid strength. I was standing underneath a large acid line which was directly overhead. For some unknown reason I moved away from this acid line. The line ruptured and sprayed acid directly at the place where I had moved from. The amazing thing is that I did not have any reason to move away from this line not knowing that it was going to rupture.

The Lord does keep us and deliver us, and I do believe that the Lord saves us from many disasters. I believe every word of Psalm 91.

"Because you have made the LORD, who is my refuge,
Even the Most High, your dwelling place,
No evil shall befall you,
Nor shall any plague come near your dwelling;
For He shall give His angels charge over you,
To keep you in all your ways.
In their hands they shall bear you up,
Lest you dash your foot against a stone.
You shall tread upon the lion and the cobra,
The young lion and the serpent you shall trample underfoot.

“Because he has set his love upon Me, therefore I will deliver him;
I will set him on high, because he has known My name.
He shall call upon Me, and I will answer him;
I will be with him in trouble;
I will deliver him and honor him.
With long life I will satisfy him,
And show him My salvation.” (Psalm 91:9-16).

we are getting off topic, the question was not about answers to prayer, but if there are signs following the preaching.

The greatest sign and miracle is a person being saved by the power of God. The devil can't dispute a changed heart and life. He can imitate many other things, but not a changed holy life.

I keep hearing in this forum that a wicked and adulterous generation ask for a miracle.

This sentence is what stuck in my mind the most, Didn't Jesus rebuke the Pharisees for doing the same thing?

I would submit that Matt. 16:1-4 is not dealing with the question of whether or not God still confirms His word with signs and miracles or whether or not we still see signs and miracles today. Jesus claimed to be Messiah, who the Jews were eagerly anticipating and who most of the Jews still look for. The Pharisees and the Saducees rejected Jesus as Messiah because He did not fit their idea or interpretation of old testament prophecy. So, they asked Jesus for a sign. He told them that they were a wicked and adulteress generation that sought a sign. Basically they said, "If we are to believe you, work some sort of miracle for us." Interestingly enough Jesus had worked many miracles and the Pharisees saw them and still did not believe. They would not have believe had Jesus done some mighty work at this time either. Remember that they looked at demons cast out and said Beelzabub was responsible. He simply told them, "You will know because I will rise from the dead in three days." Of course most did not believe then either.

This is to me quite a different discussion than asking whether God through His Holy Spirit still works miracles and signs and wonders today. Remember Jesus' words in John 14. The same things that I do and greater will you do because I go to the Father (implying the coming of the Holy Spirit to empower us).

It is important to remember thought that the working of miracles, gifts of healing, etc. are for the purpose of manifesting the love and heart of God in ministry, not for "proof" or for show. I don't even believe we seek these things for their own sake. We seek to have God's heart toward people and we minister to them from His love. He then empowers us to operate in the gifts of the Holy Spirit as He wills. The gifts are a manifestation of His love not an end in themselves.

"I gently said to him after that for me the greated miracle is when the Holy Spirit changes someone's heart from stubborness to gentlessness/teachablity or someone who suffers from anger submitting to God and being changed into someone who is gentle and kind, no longer being a slave to anger.
- those things are what impress me the most."

Brother, I am in total agreement with you that when you witness someone that was displaying the works of the flesh, in bondage to sin, and now they are producing the fruit of the Spirit and living a holy life, this is the greatest miracle. The new birth experience in which one becomes a new creation, is delivered from the power of darkness and translated to the kingdom of God's dear Son, far surpasses any outward manifestation.

It is the ministers that are making signs, wonders, and miracles a main priority in their ministry and are not emphasizing the need for belivers to live a holy, consecrated life that has caused many believers to discredit any kind of supernatural manifestation of the Sprit.

Getting back to the orgiginal post, the full gospel of salvation needs to be preached once again that Jesus Christ has not only come to save us from the penalty of sin, but the power of sin. Signs and wonders will follow those that believe the whole council of God. Our lack of seeing the power of God in our churches should not cause us to come to the wrong conclusion that God is no longer moving as He did in the early church and in various moves of God, but it should cause us to ask the question: Why isn't it happening? Where have we missed it? I have witnessed many fine Christian men and women that loved the Lord that have gone to be with Jesus as a result of dying of cancer, and have had to ask the Lord: why is this happening? I know that God hasns't changed, but we have.

Mike

JB1968 wrote:
The greatest sign and miracle is a person being saved by the power of God. The devil can't dispute a changed heart and life. He can imitate many other things, but not a changed holy life.

He made a way where there seemed to be no way to live, not just to live a life but to live an abundant life! We are His disciples in the 21 century, will we continue on to follow Him or not?

God bless,
Lisa