Can Love For God be Separated from Obedience ?

sermonindex Aug 15, 2011

If you love me, you will obey what I command. John 14:15
Can Love be Separated from Obedience ?
The act of obeying Submissive to the Fathers will.
Willing to Obey, When you just don’t want to.
A Life, and behavior that pleases God.
Walking in a manner worthy of the Lord to please Him in all respects, even when we don’t see the blessing in it.
Isaiah 1:19 If you are willing and obedient,
you will eat the best from the Land.
Trusting God in your tomorrows, a heart sincerely devoted to him and to his holy ways, not choosing instead to cling to our own way.
Moses, Chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather
Than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a short time. He was looking ahead to his reward. Every believer faces alternative choices.
Moses traded momentary pleasure for future long-range good.
He was able to make the right choice for two reasons: He was a man with spiritual values, and He was a man with spiritual vision.

G

ginnyrose Aug 15, 2011

"Can Love be Separated from Obedience?"

No.

Love is a command. Therefore, you cannot separate the two.

Anymore thoughts?

sermonindex Aug 15, 2011

Love shouldn't be seperated from obedience at all. It should be the sole motivator. I believe that is totally what He had in mind from Deut 6 through the NT - by making love the royal law and 1st commandment.
It's something that's been debated and sad that it would be - but I believe the whole purpose of why He created us, was to love us and to have us love Him in return.
Commandments are only to protect us.
Him being Father, sending The Son to live out a life of visible love for us - we should wonder why someone wouldn't love Him in return.
Some people don't love their biological father because of some cruelty or abuse - but Jesus said, if you see Me, you have seen The Father and He did nothing but sacrifice for us - so how could we not love Him? And love would grow stronger, with every passing year that we come to know Him more, into a very passionate, driving sort of love. One that almost hurts because we want to be with Him or get as close as possible. One would think that our love for the Bridegroom would be stronger than the greatest human love story out there.
It's good to do a search on all of the 'love' verses in the N.T., to see that it's necessary to being saved as well, but it would be sad to think we'd need to force love in order to be saved, after all that He's done for us.
If we look at how beautiful He created everything on earth [before mankind ruined it], we'd see how much He loved us, by that alone, nonetheless the life and death of Jesus and His sending His Spirit to Love Him through us.
I guess I'm venting some deep sorrow here, because I can't understand how anyone couldn't love Him for all that He's done for us all and I meet a number of those each week, that claim He hasn't done enough for them, so they question in their minds why they should 'have to obey' Him because of some supposed 'negligence' on His part.
He loves us so much - why isn't He worthy to be loved in return?

J

jimp Aug 15, 2011

faith and love cannot be separated from obedience.faith which worketh by love...faith is hearing a word from God,noah ,iwant you to build an ark... believing the word and obeying the word.noah built an ark to the saving of his family.he heard a lot of grief from his nieghbors but he loved his family and loved God.

sermonindex Aug 15, 2011

If we love someone, we will want to please them. If we love God then we will do as He wishes and not even question why.

M

mguldner Aug 15, 2011

Another question to be purposed for discussion, if love and obedience can't be seperate does this mean when one disobeys they don't love God?

L

Lysa Aug 15, 2011

Oh, if it were so simple or as black and white as we have made it out to be in this thread!!

As I look back on raising my children and how disobedient they were at times, I know they loved me and their father. I also look back on my walk with the Lord and how disobedient I have been at times and I know I have loved the Lord.

God created us with the ability to choose right from wrong, obedience from disobedience AND He also gave us the mind to submit to His authority or not. Sadly, some of us learn faster than others.

God bless,
Lisa

B

brothergary Aug 15, 2011

mguldner ,,,,,,,bro i think that proves one thing that is verry humbleing and convicting ,,the we dont love god the way he should be loved all the time ,,our love is not perfect like jesus love ,,he loved the lord his god with all his mind soul strength all the time every seconed of every day ,and his perfect obedance to his law proved that with out any doubt ,,we fall short of that type of perfection,,,,and the only reason why we god is because he first loved us ,and shead abroad that love into our hearts changing us in to new creations in jesus christ ,created for good works which god befor prepared that we should walk in them
taking out the old heart of stone and replaceing it with a heart of fleash and writing his laws of that new heart making it possable to love and obeay accoring to the spirit which he as givern us through the plan and practical nature of regenration ,which was by faith through grace that not being of our selvs ,but being the gift of god

as im sure you alreay no bro

i have a lot to thank him for
so much to praise him for
and yet i still dont love him any where near what he derserves ,

but the reality of that casue a contrite spirit and a morning ,and then god goes and blesses that that morn with evalasting confert ,and sets them freethrough his son indeed, a slow but sure perfecting of our soul ,and a comformety to the image of his son,which he predestined befor the foundation of the world , for with out which no one would see the lord ,,his election is efectual toward his sheep ,who are evedent in there efectal heraing of his voice ,and there following of him , for he knows them
and he gives to all of them eturnal life , and none of them shale perish by the way side , nor shal the perish on the rocky ground , nor shall and hated bird devour them ,neither shall any many pluck them out of his hand

god is greater

neither height ,nor debth
neither any created thing be able to seperate them from

THE LOVE OF GOD

but they kepeth them selfs and the evil one can not touch them

how power full is the love of god

im sure most of you know this power

ohh he is worth prasing all day long

ohh lord pour out on us more of the spirit of prayer and suplecation ,and let your spirit prayth for us with grones that cannot be uttered

and interseed for us where you sit at the right hand of the magesty on high ,as the high preist that you are accoring to the order of mekeseldek

bless you all brethern with mutiplyed grace and mercy

gazzer

sermonindex Aug 15, 2011

Oh, if it were so simple or as black and white as we have made it out to be in this thread!!

[quote[As I look back on raising my children and how disobedient they were at times, I know they loved me and their father. I also look back on my walk with the Lord and how disobedient I have been at times and I know I have loved the Lord.

God created us with the ability to choose right from wrong, obedience from disobedience AND He also gave us the mind to submit to His authority or not. Sadly, some of us learn faster than others.

God bless,
Lisa

Thanks Lysa, I was beginning to think I was on some kind of cult board after reading through all the post in this thread. Of course love can be separated from obedience to answer the OP's question. My gosh if God stopped loving us when we were disobedient, we would all have no hope. There are always bad consequences for disobedience.

I would say that obedience has not be given its rightful place in the church because of how important it is. Talking about obedience doesn't bring in a big tithe or put butts in the seats. It is extremely important, and I guess even the ultimate expression of love towards God. I have wrestled with this mightily in my own life because of the bad experience I had with authority in my teen years.

sermonindex Aug 15, 2011

Psychology and obedience is not mentioned in His Word.
Some of us had a life of unimaginable suffering yet ...

This verse is found in the "Love Chapter", as it's called ...

1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

When our Theology excuses a life-style of sin [which differs from a stumble, according to 1John], then it's not being derived from His Word. I don't mean petty sins neither.

When I was a child, I couldn't understand my father's love or labor for our family.

As an adult - I can get tears in my eyes, realizing all that that man did and suffered to provide for us, because he loved us.

That's the difference between 'children'; those still needing the milk of the Word and those who have matured in Christ to being able to handle strong meat in order to discern good from evil - as is written in Hebrews 5.

Any Theology/Soteriology that doesn't represent GOD's Word about long-term rebellion is not Biblical Theology at all.
He gives no excuses, as the psychologists do, for long-term rebellion. Excuses for blatant long term rebellion is not found in His Word, amongst the Saints.

We fall because of 'Self' love - not any other reason on earth. Just like Lucifer.

That's why His commandments were written to 'protect' us - because of His Love for us.

To 'protect' us from taking on the image of Satan, and to bring us into the Image of His Son, through obedience and His working through it, as He obeyed the Father while on earth.

Satan equals hate, self-love and rebellion.

GOD 'is' selfless Love and Jesus proved it by His obedience, as our Example.

With every thought or action, we're either projecting one 'image' or the other. There's no neutral ground.

sermonindex Aug 15, 2011

Gary wrote

"he loved the lord his god with all his mind soul strength all the time every seconed of every day ,and his perfect obedance to his law proved that with out any doubt ,,we fall short of that type of perfection,"

But that is the first commandment FOR US! If we do not then we are living a life of sin - habitual sin.

Brenda

B

brothergary Aug 15, 2011

brenda if you think you can love god in the same way christ loved god evy miniute of the day ,then your the greatses christ i know

even in scripture we see lak of love towards god at time ,by the apostals

showing they were not perfect and sinless , but stilll made quite big mistakes

sermonindex Aug 15, 2011

What sins - lets call them sins not mistakes - did they commit then Gary?

A

ArtB Aug 16, 2011

Whenever I hear the word 'obedience' a red flag goes off in my mind.

Even the title: Can Love For God be Separated from Obedience? 'Begs the Question' obedient to what?

Let's rephrase the question to:

Can Love For God be Separated from Obedience TO GOD?

It still begs the question, specifically what does God want us to obey?

Now let us speculate what that 'WHAT' is.

a. Keep the Mosaic Laws. Yet no one but Jesus ever kept the entire Mosaic laws. Everyone else fails to keep, including Moses whom this Contract of keeping the Laws bears his name.
And this is as true today as it was in before Jesus Christ. God told Moses that the peoples entering the promised land would never be obedient to the Mosaic Laws that they just agreed to obey them all.

b. Keep the Laws of the New Covenant of Jesus Christ? How many Christians actually even know what they are?

C. Obedience means keeping the 7 sacraments by the Catholic Church to the extent permissible by their rules, which are held by a few other similar denominations?

Back to the question: Can Love For God be Separated from Obedience?

I sure hope so, because every sin we commit is an act of disobedience, and we all sin continually. As Pointed out by the Apostle John:

1 Jn 1:5-10
This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 IF WE SAY WE HAVE NOT SINNED, WE MAKE HIM A LIAR AND HIS WORD IS NOT IN US. NASU

WOULD ALL HERE AGREE THAT each of our sins is is an act of disobedience?

And yet, we do love God. We are just not perfect. God knows this, and all He ask is that we confess our sins to Him, and He is faithful forgive all our sins and He will also cleanse us from unrighteousness. That is not our job, it is His. He gave us the indwelling Holy Spirit, God-in-me, to change our nature that we may do the good He created us to do.

The Royal Law of Love, to love God with all our heart, mind and soul, and to love our neighbor as much as we love ourselves. The more we try, the better we get at Loving.

We should wisely consider the Law of Liberty: that as we measure unto others, so shall it be measured to us. As we judge others, so shall we be judged. MERCY TRIUMPHS OVER JUDGEMENT. Love and forgive. Love and forgive.

And do not quench the indwelling Holy Spirit by whom we are sealed as God's children, and whom works in us daily to change our very nature that we may do the good that God created us to do. And KNOW that God will succeed in completing the work He started in us when we accepted Jesus as our Savior.

So, what I view as God's - soon to be completed - work in us, which you may call obedience, but will be easy because of Love. Love is all important, we need to love, love, love, and God will perfect us in love

1 Co 16:14 Let all that you do be done in love.

Eph 3:14-19
I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in LOVE, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the LOVE of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.

1 Th 3:11-13
Now may our God and Father Himself and Jesus our Lord direct our way to you; and may the Lord cause you to increase and abound in LOVE for one another, and for all people, just as we also do for you; so that He may establish your hearts without blame in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints.

1 Jn 4:15-21
Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. We have come to know and have believed the LOVE which God has for us.

God is LOVE, and the one who abides in LOVE abides in God, and God abides in him. By this, LOVE is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world.

There is no fear in LOVE; but perfect LOVE casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

We LOVE, because He first loved us.

20 If someone says, "I LOVE God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not LOVE his brother whom he has seen, cannot LOVE God whom he has not seen. And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who LOVES God should LOVE his brother also.

LOVE LOVE LOVE!

It is my opinion that true LOVE of God and of one another leads to true obedience to God without any effort whatsoever, but is pure joy. For God is Love.

B

brothergary Aug 16, 2011

when peter comitted the sin of hipocracy for how long we dont no for sure , it was a big mistake for him not to teach the truth and teach the gentiles to live as jews especicaly when he was living like a gentile regarding diet ect
he sined against god , and wile he was doing this his love was wavering , in fear ,,when one is in fear ,he canot be expressing the love of god at this precice time ,
he wansnt expressing love properly toward his neibour ,or to god at this time he was expressing fear ,and paull saw through it and rebuked him

i know he loved god ,but he still struggeld to express it in is actions ,,,,,and love is not just a feeling ,but actions ,when we perform actions contrary to actions of love , we are not loving god with all our heart mind soul and strength ,peters mind was captured by fear and hiporcacy

that was all i was saying

i wasnt saying we should all go around sinning god forbid

i believe in the fruit of the spirit , it must be evedent

even sleaping in in the morning for half an hour is sin for me ,, i should be up praying to god becasue he deservs it , im not saying im really willing to not pray ,, but the flesh still trys to stop me , a wrectcerd man that i am who will delievrd me from the body of death

im a cheif of sinners

i wont say im the presedent of sinneres , i dont think paull was teaching that
but it is a worthy saying as paull said worty of all excepettation ,, i except it

bless you sis

i like you name

my lovely wifes name is brenda as well

you seem verry strong and firery like her lol

B

brothergary Aug 16, 2011

but i dont expect anyone to except my theological point of view

M

mguldner Aug 16, 2011

Amen brother Art, I asked the question to stir up deeper thought than the black and white, and you gave a well balanced answer that I agree with and view as biblical and lining up with the Word of God.

We are dark but He finds us lovely, We are saved not because our Love is so amazing but we are saved because His love is amazing. True Love will lead to Obedience as others have said but in no way shape or form are we perfect Lovers of God, BUT if Christ be in us then we have True Love residing in Us, I don't believe we can Love God with our Love but we are empowered to Love God with God's Love that He gives us through the Holy Spirit.

My personal view of God is that of a Father who will discipline his child but He disciplines out of Love so we will quit hurting ourselves with sin, which is something I think many seem to forget, SIN Hurts. God wants us free not only to freely Love Him but also because He doesn't enjoy seeing His children hurting. We do disobey but as you said if we confess our sins He is faithful to forgive us our sins.

Something that I find interesting Jesus says in John 4 paraphrased "It won't matter where we worship but God's worshipers will worship in Spirit and Truth." Can we operate in the Spirit of God? Yes, its a Spirit of Humility, Love, Holiness and What Truth? I believe their are two truths to consider, 1 the Truth about God Christ Jesus, and 2 the Truth about us, ie meaning honesty with ourselves that Yes we fail and fall and need a Saviour and Lord. BUT all in all Its Christ doing everything in us and so its nothing we can boast or brag about because without Christ we are the heathens so many religious christians like to turn up their noses to.

A

ArtB Aug 17, 2011

Amen mguldner, my brother in Jesus Christ!

sermonindex Aug 17, 2011

When we 'fear' the word "obedience", that's when the red flag should come up.

Obedience to what? His Words are in our New Testament, so that's an easy question to answer.

Love & obedience are synonymous in HIS Word. They go hand in hand. We can't have one without the other.
When the Word "obedience" comes to our minds - it should be with utter joy, because of our hearts of Love & Gratitude toward Him, for all that He's done for us.

A Bride that Loves her Husband, submits gladly, because she loves Him. As Ephesians 5 speaks of Christ and His Church.

What good husband wants a rebellious wife, when he knows that her rebellion is only hurting her and depriving her of all the riches he desires to pour out and robbing her of the authority in his name?

Will a rebellious Church have power?

If we cause others to get "red flags" at that beautiful word "obedience" - what could the consequences be?

Jesus' / The Word of GOD's test of our "Love" ...

Heb 5:8,9 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; and being made perfect,
he became the author of eternal salvation
unto all them that obey him

Joh 14:15 If ye love Me, keep My commandments.

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love Me,
he will keep My words: and My Father will love him,
and We will come unto him, and make Our abode with him.

Joh 15:10 If ye keep My commandments,
ye shall abide in My love;
even as I have kept My Father's commandments,
and abide in His love.

2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God,
and bringing into captivity Every thought
to the obedience of Christ

We can "tweek" The WORD of GOD by slicing and dicing it, for our own satisfaction.
Can Christ be divided or only parts of Him be handed out?
Pray that we reverence The Word of GOD that He left us,
and fear cutting Him to pieces.
We only love 'Jesus', as much as we love "The Word of GOD".
Anything less is another Jesus and another spirit.

M

mguldner Aug 17, 2011

So Jesus-is-God you then Love God, by being 100% obedient? If obedience and Love are synonomous, then hate and disobedience would be as well, would it not?

So in order to love God we must be 100% obedient all the time? I am not asking to be a wise guy, I truly am curious as to your thoughts on this.

Is it the striving that God looks at in the heart ie the attitude or the 100% follow through of obedience?

From all of this though you could look at someones life and say they love Jesus less than you granted your obedience is more, correct?

Where does obedience come into play on Salvation? Is 100% obedience required to be saved?