Mike Bickle gives perspective on the manifestations of the Spirit at IHOP-KC.
What are your thoughts?
Some key quotations.
"I will allow the fake because I so believe in the genuine."
"Most of it's fake. Majority of the manifestations are not caused by the holy spirit."
I spent alot of time at IHOP. I had extremely good fellowship with many members there. I find that they are serious about the Word and serious about their faith.
However, like many movements they are not perfect. Some of the manifestations are very ungodly. The continuous laughing is very bizarre. I would recommend Andrew Storm article on this manifestation. He seems to understand this as being part of the prophetic movement.
The thrashing and violent movements are also wrong. If you are part of this movement I would recommend you fight these ungodly emotional reactions because I firmly believe they are not of the Spirit. Do all things for the edification of the body.
I went to Ihop a few times and actually at times attend a seed church er whatever you want to call it my family friends started up, like a small House of Prayer type thing. I also have many who were in the movement itself, I even attended a "Onething" conference.
I saw the jerking and laughing etc and thought what many thought this is rather "fleshly" at the conference despite the shak'n bakes and laughers I was greatly blessed with Godly messages and worship, I am glad that Mike Bickel did finally address some of the falsity of it all.
There is a Watchman Nee book that addresses this very thing of Soulish or emotional to an actual Spiritual and biblical act of Worship very good read :).
You will see a lot of Soulishness but this is what happens when you have a lot of passionate but immature young Christians coming together in large quantities. Ignore the soulish and immature and be blessed by the teaching and other things Ihop has to offer, as its been said already not ever ministry is perfect, why? because man is involved.
IHOPS? I thought they just served pancakes. Now they also serve the fruits, flakes, and nuts of the spirit? lol
p.s. Do they do all that bizarre behavior with other customers around? Bad for biz.
Saints let us be honest with ourselves. The only thing we regard as acceptable before God is revetential silence as his word is expounded from the pulpit. With no less than a 3 hour Puritant sermon. And that preferrably from the KJJV. Hymns are acceptable but not sung to loudly. There may be piano or organ but no guitar or drum. And certainly none of that contemporary praise stuff. And our singing is to be done in minor key. Sing solem as in a funeral.
And while the word is being taught you sit down. You are not to say Amen or lift your hands in praise to God and dare you not bow or prostrate yourself on worship before God. For this is acceptable, Reformed, Calvinistic worship before God. Only.this will please God.
I challenge anyone to read Nehemiah 8:1-10 and tell me that was not acceptable to God. I maintain the Old Testament saint had far more freedom and joy than the New Testamen saint in America. Any dispute this?
Blaine
Just a thought,
The Bible says that one of the fruits of the Spirit is self control, yet you hear lots of testimonies from stuff about laughing, shaking, manifesting, etc. and being completely out of control of it. By basis of their very testimonies in light of the Bible, proves that it cannot be the Holy Spirit.
"I'll allow the fake, because I so believe in the genuine."
Rephrased;
"I have no problem letting some drink poison, as long as there are a few drinking water."
No matter how heavy the Spirit has ever touched me, or moved me to tears, or towards any emotion, I've always been in full control of myself. I've never been "unable to stop".
This stuff is emotion at "best" though quite possibly Kundalini, and this man is a terrible shepherd, sorry to say.
As these are the last days, the truth will become harder and harder to discern especially when it's all based solely on emotions and not God's Word to us.
1 Corinthians 4:6
Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, so that in us you may learn NOT TO EXCEED WHAT IS WRITTEN, so that no one of you will become arrogant in behalf of one against the other. (NASB emphasis added)
If this stuff can't be seen through, good luck seeing through the one who's coming. He'll be much smoother than this, believe me.
PS, I would also recommend brother Andrew Strom's video's that can be viewed on YouTube about the Kundalini spirit. I think his channel is called JohnthebaptistTV or something along those lines.
"I maintain the Old Testament saint had far more freedom and joy than the New Testamen saint in America"
Wow, what an insulting word, a sheer slap in the face of our Lord.
"Far more freedom"?
We have far more freedom because we don't have sin weighing down over us as they did. Those sacrifices never took the sin away, it just covered them until the next sacrifice, and those sins rolled over to the next time. Sins warehouse was bursting at the seams.
Further, we have more freedom because if I do sin I have an advocate with the Father, and it's cleared immediately. Whereas in the law I would have to pay penalty charges and offer up a sacrifice of whatever bird or animal that that sin weighed. And my conscience would never be cleared, talk about stress. There is no joy in that.
As for the restrictions your placing on services, that is your preference, however, all I look for is one thing, is that preacher speaking by the unction of the Holy Ghost?
The music is important, even the guitar and drums because each man's talent is different and God puts no restrictions on those that give that gift to Him to worship Him in it. Just because the voodoos use drums doesn't mean that they are bad, they use the flute too, is that bad? God forbid if we find out that satanist use the organ, we'd ban that too.
The things that are seen are not eternal, the things that we don't see are eternal.
Personally, I love to worship our God. I sing, I weep, I lift my arms to Heaven, I clap, I dance. Mostly in my home alone with Him.
In Church I am a tad more reserved so that I am not bringing attention to myself. So, that others will not be looking at my demonstrative worship but be worshiping our Savior themselves.
David Wilkerson On Weird Manifestations - YouTube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrpW6Xctg8Q
Let's pray saints, please, for these children of the Lord. We could all be caught up in false teaching and most likely have at one time or another but by God's grace we have escaped. So, lets not allow pride in because we have been spared but have pity and pray for others, not pointing fingers etc. we dont have to part-take but we do have to pray for them. That is what discernment is all about. God opens our eyes to the truth that we may pray. God help me, God help us all not to be so self-righteous.
I challenge anyone to read Nehemiah 8:1-10 and tell me that was not acceptable to God. I maintain the Old Testament saint had far more freedom and joy than the New Testamen saint in America. Any dispute this?
Nehemiah 8 is a fantastic example. The very premise in verse one begins with the Scriptures being brought forth as the beginning, and Ezra reads to those with understanding from what Moses had written. Notice in verse eight it said he was translating to make sure they knew what it meant.
God's Word was the STANDARD. Not what others felt. Not the feeling that was going on, or the experience of others. The very starting point was truth being explained from the Word of God.
And then the people lifted their hands to God, and put their faces to the ground. They didn't fall over backwards, or start to roll around, or scream, or convulse, or hysterically laugh, or shake, or imitate an animal. The only thing that said that transpired beyond that was weeping. YET, when Ezra told them not to weep, you will not find a verse saying that they were not in control of themselves and continued to weep. They got up and they ate.
Notice the direction they fell for just a second as well. They fell forward on their faces. EVERY ACCOUNT in the Bible of people falling before the Lord save one, shows people falling on their faces (and in control of themselves). The only time we have people falling backwards, is when Jesus proclaimed Himself to the soldiers, and they were knocked down backwards under the power of God, as a judgement against them. People are falling the wrong way these days.
I can get into the account of "laughing in the Spirit" and "animal imitations" as well, but I'll just make it short of it and say, laughing is mentioned once in worship, and it's related to the worship going on in Exodus 32:6. However it's in relation to false worship, to the Golden Calf (which the children of Israel also referred to as YHWH, and reckoned that the two were the same). The phrase "rose up to play" I've been told by a Jewish scholar, actually more literally translates "rose up to laugh" in the original Hebrew. Kind of interesting the relationship with false worship. I would encourage anyone to read it in Hebrew and Google the word used for rose up to play, so they can check it out for themselves.
And I've seen animal imitations defended on here recently as a legitimate manifestation of the Holy Spirit, yet the only time we ever see it in the Bible is when King Nebuchadnezzar was given the mind of a beast as a judgement from God in Daniel chapter 4.
Mr. Bickle would do better to act as Ezra, and bring forth the Word to explain it to those who follow him with little understanding. But it appears he's given up understanding in favor of seeking manifestations and signs. Jesus had something to say about such a generation....
For this is acceptable, Reformed, Calvinistic worship before God. Only.this will please God.
Someone missed the intent of my post. To be honest I was being a tad sourcastic . In no way am I trying to put restrictions on anyone's worship before God. Personally I am charismatic, I pray in tongues, I have been on my knees and have been prostrate before the Lord. All of this has been in response to God's word. Yet in certain circles which for the most part are Calvinistic, this has been discouraged.
There was a poster who believed I was insulting God by sayiing that the Old Testament saint had more freedom to worship God than the New Testament saintt in America. Quite the contrary. Under the New Covenant we should be shouting our praise to God for the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the work. We should be shouting, I mean, SHOUTING HALLEUJAH WHAT A SAVIOR.
I have sat under some great preaching where the glories of Christ have been unfolded. In a moment where I would forget myself I would lift my hands and say AMEN, GLORY, HALLEUJAH!!!! When we hear the we hear the words Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world that should want to make us jump up and shout HALLEUJAH!!! In those times I do generally one of the leadership takes me aside and says that such expressions of joy are not welcome in the assembly.
I mentioned the New Testament saints in America. I have been to South America where the brothers and sisters get more excited just hearing the name of Jesus mentioned. Yet we hear that glorious name and sit like bumps on a log. And condemn those in the name of respectability who do show some response to the word of God. Maybe a little excitement over Jesus.
I mention Nehemiah 8 because if that took place in the 21st century in America we would condemn it as lack of self control. If Jonathan Edwards or George Whitfield or the Wesleys were preaching at a Sermon Index con$erence the religious spirit would rise up and condemn the things that would happen. You lnow the weeping but also expressions 9f joy. You read accounts where people were falling out crying before before God as the word was preached.
You will tell me that what is happening at IHOP is excessive and that may be true. But I feel many in this forum would discourage any type of emotional response to the word. That is why I said get honest here. You would prefer we sit there quietly and be as Mr. Spock and process the word with cold intellect. Sorry folks. I am not Vulcan.
I say again I am charismatic. I do speak and pray in tongues. I do believe in the prophetic gifts. I will continue to worship God with shouts of praise. I will continue to read my NIV New Testament. No I am not putting limits on anyone's worship. I would encourage the worship of God with joy and worship. But I do not think that will sit to well with many in this forum.
Blaine
I was listening to this today and feel that I should share it. Brother Bill McLeod speaks on the life lived surrendered through a look at the life of Joseph. I believe this has great implications in the discussion that will follow. May the Lord give hearing ears to those who will seek Him.
Move Out Of The Way by Bill McLeod
Topic: Surrender\t
Mike Bickle gets a lot of attention on this website, and I believe that most of it is negative.
It is not a good thing that 80% of the manifestations taking place in many meetings is not the result of the Spirit of God coming on the saints but is due to other factors.
There are many churches that can boast that they do not have any wildfire in their services, and this is very true, because they don't have the true fire of God falling either. The service is so tightly regulated, structured and predictable that the spirit is shut out altogether.
Mike Bickle made some very good points in addressing this subject, and if you can get past the idea of manifestations, look what he had to say at the very end on the 5 main things that they are seeking in their meetings.
1. They are seeking to connect with Jesus. Another word for connect is to abide or have intimate fellowship with.
2. They are seeking to do things according to the Spirit of truth. Seeking reality, keeping things real. No fake, no imitation.
3. Not drawing attention to ourselves. The focus has to be on Jesus.
4. Liberty (Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom).
5. sensitivity to other people (Not allowing our liberty to be a stumbling block to others.
Mike
"There was a poster who believed I was insulting God"
Spell my name out clear brother, it was me! :o)
"But I feel many in this forum would discourage any type of emotional response to the word."
I agree, they would!
There are a lot of people that come here that do speak in tongues brother, they don't come out and say it, but it's hinted here and there, and they are careful not to say it here because it's not received well, because equally there are people here that will whole heartily disagree with you on that subject as not being for us today.
We all know that our faith is not built upon a feeling, we all know that, but some tend to go further and say there is no feeling at all in this walk, and you know, that is pretty stupid when you think about it.
I mean, God is so above and beyond us, and yet, He has emotion. He gets angry, He even feels our infirmities, He even woos as a lover would His mate.
Personally,, I don't want to restrict the moving of the Holy Ghost.
As for this IHOP thingy, your going to get all manner of foolishness in a service when the service is not governed by the Spirit. The leadership needs to take authority of it's services and allow the Holy Spirit to have His way. We need discernment in our midst and once it's seen for what it is, it's stopped in it's tracks, there is no more discussion, it's dealt with right then and there.
Jesus wouldn't even allow them to continue on. That should tell you how much our eyes are shut to these things.
Ephesians 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
Brother in all honesty I could not remember who the other poster was. My Droid's small screen can only take so much info. But I think you see the intent of post was not to insult God. And I do apologize for the saorcasm in my post. But I am trying to challenge this forum to be honest. For the most part this forum is driven by a Calvinistic mindset that is cessionist. For the most part this forum disdains emotion.
Brother you have been honest and for that I respect you. We may not agree with aspects of doctrine but we do agree on Jesus. I know there are some who resent my posting in this forum. Ironicaly the post have concerned the persecuted church. On one occasion I was asked to leave the forum.
I know at some point I will leave but I will continue to post with honesty, particularly regarding myself.
Regarding IHOPI I do believe the mature leaders, assuming they have some, should gently oversee the worship and guide the younger believers into a more solid experience of the worship of Jesus.
Blaine Scogin
"IHOPS? I thought they just served pancakes. Now they also serve the fruits, flakes, and nuts of the spirit? lol
p.s. Do they do all that bizarre behavior with other customers around? Bad for biz."
Trekker, I am not sure if your question is an attempt at sarcasm or are you really wondering about IHOP...
When I first came here and people talked about IHOP I was really confused. The only IHOP I knew was the restaurant. It took a long time for me to learn they were talking about a church called "International House of Prayer".
If your question was genuine, here is the answer. If you tried to be humorous, I can appreciate it as well. :-)
I speak in tongues. I don't flaunt it nor am I ashamed of it. Paul thanked God he did.
Unfortunately there are many things within the Charismatic/Pentecostal movements that have brought a reproach on the name of Christ. [And I'm sure there is also incidents in the circles who don't believe in the gifts] but there are believers who are not caught up in the hysteria that is sometimes present in these circles. Many of those people are on this forum. We realize that it's not about drawing attention or impressing people. We realize the Holy Spirit wants to point to Christ not self. As a young believer I had a tendency to look around church and try to judge who's in the 'flesh' and who isn't. I realized it became more of a distraction. I think when it comes to issues like this where people disagree but orthodox doctrines are not violated, I judge by the fruits.
Does it give glory to God, produce more love for God, love for the lost, love for the brethren, is selfless, produce holiness and purity, humility...
When I hear/see the crazy things that happens, I'm actually grieved because it brings reproach to Christ. Also, many of these people are true brothers, misled and in error but nevertheless part of the body. We can be quick to cast of people who we see in the wrong. What is the Lord's attitude? I think He is grieved but wants to redeem them. Many OT prophets cried out for God's people when they forsook God. The prophets were seeking God and walking close to him yet they felt the heart of God and mourned and wept for those who were in error.
An old pentecostal preacher that I knew who just went to heaven 2 weeks ago [in his 90's] once said concerning order in the church, in his Okie [Oklahoma] countryfied tongue, "well, whose order do you want? you want man's order or God's order...there's a whole heap of a difference between them". If the wild and bizarre things that happen in the Bible was happened in front of us today and what would people say?
Yes, I am very disturbed and grieved by the errors taking place today but does that negate the genuine work of God in others? If an unbeliever says, look at the bad things that came out of Christianity. No way am I gonna believe that is truth. What are we gonna do?
Usually anyone more radical "than us" in their expression of praise or worship is "out of order". That is what Michal thought about David as he flailed, leaped, stomped about, and danced wildly. Oh, by the way, he was laughing as well. 2 Sam 6 uses the word play in KJV 'sachaq'. It means to laugh with joy or to mock an enemy. He that sits in the heavens shall LAUGH! David laughed as he praised the Lord. I think if God was displeased, He would have taken David out as well as Uzzah.
Paul also has an interesting comment 2 Cor 5:13 when he said if I be beside myself, it is unto the Lord, (like David said, it was before the Lord)but if I be sober it is for your sake.
He basically was saying sometimes it looks like I have lost my mind, (insane). Do some people look like they are insane at times? How do you know what is going on in their heart?
I remember hearing a testimony of a man who grew up "fatherless". God began to show him how HE was there for his ball games, and when he cried from loneliness, etc. This man began to roll across the floor weeping and laughing as God walked him through key times of his life showing him HIS faithfulness.
I am not justifying everything that happens but there is clearly WORD for unusual expression before the Lord.
How about some laughing during intercession and warfare prayer as we behold the futility of the enemy. We are seated with Christ. Are we not? If He is laughing then so am I as I am in Him.
sachaq check it out
Russell
I dont know... I really like their pancakes. The Colorado Omelette is pretty good too!
Krispy
If anyone is wondering exactly what kind of "manifestations" are occurring, I'd like to direct you to a few examples:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPhDxAQSpEE&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1udgv0LHEv4&feature=related
There's a fruitful discussion on the manifestations here:
http://slaughteringthesheep.wordpress.com/2011/06/28/unholy-manifestations-at-ihop/
And lets not be coy, this stuff is demonic.
rufnrust It's not whether the worship itself is acceptable or not, it's whether this manifestation hunting game some Christians are playing are opening themselves up to demonic possession.
David was willfully dancing before the Lord with all his might. He had the power to stop at any point. Paul may have had some ways of worship that seemed "crazy," but he ALWAYS had self-control. How do I know? Because self-control is a fruit of the Spirit and is an inherent characteristic of EVERYTHING THE SPIRIT DOES.
Some of these manifestations include UNCONTROLLABLE jerking, UNCONTROLLABLE laughter, and drunkenness (a la. LOSS OF CONTROL).
This discussion is locked.
