the beginning of the birthpangs..?

The Times, UK 29 December 2004 “Sumatra is thought to have moved by as much as 120ft and the Earth to have shifted on its axis The earthquake responsible for the Asian tsunami was so powerful that it changed the local geography, shifting islands and the mainland of Sumatra by as much as 120ft, American seismologists said yesterday. The energy released by the quake was so huge that it may even have caused the Earth to wobble on its axis. Geophysicists are calling it a megathrust, the term used for the most powerful of changes in the Earth’s surface. Pressure built up over nearly two centuries was released in a single snap.” And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. (Isa 2:19 KJV)The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again. (Isa 24:20 KJV)And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. (Luk 21:25-28 KJV)"But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs. (Mat 24:8 NASB)

megathrustMegathrust? :-o Who ever heard of such a thing? The shocking thing is that these things are happening and few seem to feel the need to repent. This is the type of thing that should awaken even the most careless of sinners. It should awaken every sleeping Saint. I am reminded of how Peter said we have a more sure word of prophecy whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts. (II Peter 1:19) When a prophecy is fulfilled it is more powerful for the purpose of authentication of truth than an eyewitness account. Abraham told the rich man that if a person will not repent by the word of Moses and the prophets, they would not repent even if one came back from the dead to warn them! Moses and the prophets? The fulfillment of the prophesies Moses and the prophets should have convinced the rich man's family to repent. No use in sending a dead man if a fulfilled prophecy won't do it.What about us? We have Moses, the prophets, and the New Testament. We have seen many prophesies fulfilled in the last 100 or so years (even if we exclude Israel as a nation). The fearful words of Revelation are even now coming to pass; "Yet they repented not..."God Bless,-Robert

the sea and the waves roaring;How greater can a wave roar than a 40' tidal wave traveling at 500 MPH?

The shocking thing is that these things are happening and few seem to feel the need to repent. This is the type of thing that should awaken even the most careless of sinners.The bible says something about "how can they believe unless they hear?" and in many of these asian places, it is a third world, poor, not even consistent electricity and good water and sanitation (bathrooms), so they don't have TVs and things at their disposal to watch TV preaching. In blindness, there has been resistance and persecution to Christians in many of these places, so we must pray and support the christians and people that their eyes will be opened and God will draw them to himself. The missionaries work and are working hard (like in Gospel for Asia ministry), but still many do not know and understand the name Jesus Christ. I do hope with those of us who do know what is going on with God and His plan, we will be spurred to labor in truth and love in His harvest. Not just with our words, but with action (faith without deeds is nothing). Lord, please thrust forth laborers into the Father's harvest. Thank you Lord Jesus for hearing our prayers and answering according to the Father's will in heaven. His will be done. In Jesus' Name I pray, amen.

The thing that struck me most, past such massive destruction, was listening to all of the western news people who kept saying, "What a devestating natural phenomena", or something to that effect ...But the most ironic thing i saw/heard on TV was a Buddhist, in a Buddhist temple who said, "This destruction is of biblical proportions. It's like a flood out of the Old Testament ...

I do hope with those of us who do know what is going on with God and His plan, we will be spurred to labor in truth and love in His harvest. Not just with our words, but with action (faith without deeds is nothing). Lord, please thrust forth laborers into the Father's harvest.Amen. Let us be off to the fields as God hath sent us. I don't know about you guys, but I feel an awesome unction to preach. Just last night I watched God moving among the youth, pouring out His Spirit. This is the time. This is the hour! God Bless,-Robert

I thought I would do a little web surfing to find out a little more about earthquakes. Others who are interested can find more at Earthquakes FAQs

And another sign:Matt. 24:4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, “I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows."Men are drunk with the passion for wars. Rumors of wars are talked about in our newspapers. Fortunately we are running out of money to start other wars. Just think, the U.S. has just committed 35 million dollars to help aid the remaining people of the area struck by these tidal waves. That sum of money is less than 1% of the money the U.S. spends each month trying to give Iraq a new form of government.The hearts of many grow cold.In ChristJeff

Here's one "another christ": By Sarah Junk - CNSNews.com(CNSNews.com) - When the Rev. Sun Myung Moon and his wife were crowned the "King and Queen of Peace" on March 23rd -- inside the Dirksen Senate Office Building with Members of Congress looking on -- few news outlets took notice.But in the months since Moon's March 23rd "coronation" as Messiah, a growing number of people are questioning the appropriateness of allowing a "coronation" to take place inside a government building.At a press conference on Wednesday, Jewish, Muslim and Christian representatives from the organization that sponsored Moon's coronation unapologetically defended the ceremony, its location, and Moon's Messiah declaration."It was the spirit world that said he was the Messiah," said Archbishop George A. Stallings, Jr., pastor of an independent African-American Catholic congregation. Moon, founder of the Unification Church, was merely repeating the message, said Stallings.Here's another:# God operates by spiritual law and is obligated to obey the "FAITH FILLED" words. "Faith is a force and words are the containers of that force."# The demotion of God and the deification of man - "The biggest failure in the whole Bible is God." (Kenneth Copeland)# "You are as much an incarnation of God as Jesus Christ was. You are a little god." (Benny Hinn)# "God could not intervene since He had made Adam the god of the earth. God was left on the outside looking in." (Kenneth Copeland)and another... After being won over by the ritual of the Catholic Mass, Hahn plunged into traditional Catholic teachings and errors. He turned to a dark teaching: the "Melchizedek" priesthood of the Roman Catholic Church. "When the priest speaks the words of institution 'This is My body... This is the cup of My blood, the blood of the new and everlasting covenant,'" wrote Hahn, "he is not merely narrating, he is speaking in the person of Christ, who is the principal celebrant of the Mass. By the sacrament of Holy Orders, a man is changed in his very being; as priest, he becomes 'another Christ'."Later in the book he reiterated, "now we can understand why we call priests 'Father' and the pope our 'Holy Father,' because they are other Christs,..."7 Does Rome support Hahn's statements? Vatican Council II Vol. II, No. 77, Dominicae Cenae, 24 Feb. 1980, Section 8, page 74 reads: "The priest offers the Holy Sacrifice in persona Christi; this means more than offering 'in the name of' or 'in the place of' Christ. In persona means in specific sacramental identification with the eternal High priest."Paul warned in 2 Corinthians 11:3-4 about deception in the form of another Christ, "... For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted you bear this beautifully."Be warned, "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed" --Galatians 1:8.So Rome does endorse "another Christ" and when Hahn takes this supposedly transubstantiated wafer he receives it from "a man" who "is changed in his very being" into "another Christ," and he bears this beautifully. In turn, every Roman Catholic who trusts in this "host" as being the actual body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ is taking "another Christ" from "another Christ." This is heresy of the highest rank, and their very souls are at risk of being separated from the true Christ forever because of their trust in another Christ.jouko

Greetings bubbaguy, and welcome to our forums.There's something of an edge to your tone; I don't mind terribly, but I thought I would mention it in case it was unintentional.In any event, I have some sympathy with those that object to the prevailing idea that the end is near. There has undeniably been a large amount of irresponsible twisting of Scripture and current events to fit the eschatalogical theories (and, dare I say, desires) of various people. We ought be more discerning than to take every headline and attempt to shoehorn it and some verse or another out of Revelation or Daniel together into a halfway-plausible argument that the world is ending, at latest, next Tuesday.But I think this latest "birthpang", as it were, does warrant consideration in light of Scripture. Though I think eschatalogical theories should take the back burner compared to our being tools of God in dealing with the situation: physically through obvious means of support and assistance, and spiritually through bringing the Word to those who may have not heard (this does open quite a window of oppurtunity into generally intensely Muslim areas, as well as generally unreached areas) and reminding others who may be shocked into a more receptive state by recent events.And, for the record, there have been a number of people in the not too distant past claiming to be Christ, or Christ reincarnate, or some kind or another of Messiah. The fellow leading the "Heaven's Gate" group comes to mind, and so does another guy whose website I came across some time ago (http://www.strongcity.com/ , I don't think his previous website is still up), and I don't properly recall whether David Koresh made claims of that nature.I agree, though, in that I get the impression from the text that the number and/or temporary success of these impostors will be somewhat greater than we have seen.edit - of course, the Roman Catholic system of "impersonating" Christ has been exceedingly successful in terms of numbers; they have more than we do. But only a small percentage (or so I get the impression) really understands what Rome teaches on that.

Welcome Bubbaguy,And thanks Keith, well said. I think if you were to look around a bit here bubbaguy you would find a mixed reaction and yet I believe level headed.One of the things that always comes up when these catastrophes happen is past history. We have had pandemics that have wiped out hundreds of thousands, wars, genocide, the holocoust... and for the bible believing I am sure that those who survived, lived through these things must have had similar thoughts, that this was the beginning of the end, if not the end.One of the threads here related to recent events started off with the comment "I don't know and I don't think any of us knows" 'why' this happened.So I don't think anyone is making the leap to a conclusion. The 'beginning of birth pangs' was a heading with a question mark and that possibility is just as likely as the opposite, being that the Lord Himself said this would happen.So I did find this comment interesting; Ain't happening, and we are not going to see this for many ages, if ever. The end is not near!What makes you so sure?And more puzzling was;Don't put every world event in context of Revelations. It is a false trail. By means of its maleable and easily misconstrued words, it (Revelations) is a deception in itself!Maybe you meant something different than I am reading it. The 'false trail' of narrating every event to specific prophecy, I could understand that point of view, but you are not saying that the book " The Revelation of Jesus Christ" is a deception are you?

[font=Verdana]For many will come in My name, saying, “I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. I see no sign of this happening. Who, exactly, besides the obviously insane, is saying "I am the Christ"?[/font][font=Verdana]The Mormon's, Jehovah Witnesses and other cults are teaching of a different Christ a different Gospel. Im sure they can be considered as false Christs.[/font]

hi bubbaguyYou don't know Mark Jacobson by any chance do you? He was a regular here for a long time and there is a remarkable similarity in your postings.Anyway, 'the Christ' is a role as well as a person. Jesus of Nazareth was acknowledged by God as 'both Lord and Christ' but many before him and after him have claimed to be the 'uniquely authorised one'. The Bar Kochba rebellion of AD 135 was led by one who many regarded as The Christ. Anyone who says 'but I say unto you' and in so doing sets himself up as the authoratitive voice of God does the same. In this sense Muhammed was a 'Christ', so is the Papacy (as a system not as a person), atheistic communism is a 'Christ'. These all produce totalitarian authority systems.Anyone who claims to be a self-contained authority without reference to the absolute authority of the scriptures is on the borderline. Many early Quakers were on the borderline, some crossed it.I think you are reading the "I am Christ" to mean 'I am Jesus of Nazareth'. It may mean that and some have claimed it, but the real meaning is "I am God's uniquely authorised Leader". Sadly there have been very many of these.

Hi Jake aka bubbaguy from a personal email…The problem for the scriptures here is that in order for "many" to be decieved by an imposter, returned "Christ" they have to be believers in God the Father in the first place. You cannot believe in the son of God without first believing in a Godhead. Those who put their faith in God, then will have to be willingly allowed by God to be decieved, when they have faith in God, and then be sent to the unquenchable fire!! God comes out being duplicitious in this affair, saving some who believe and casting others into the fire for being misled by a Satan created by God to do this job! He creates imperfect creatures (or those he knows will become imperfect through sin) and goes about judging them and sending them to hell. WHATAGUY!So I was right, I did recognise that voice! Well I think we have been around this circle often enough to know where it going to go, but personally I don’t mind your reappearance here. The problem is that your views are so distant from most of the folk here that there is just no point of contact, so we end up talking past each other. Your view of the Bible is one of ‘pick n mix’ and the Bible only used to confirm your own insights. Your final authority is yourself and your witness, ours is the inerrant word of God. We do not always understand it but when we don’t we don’t bin it, we bin our opinions.The word 'Christ' had many definitions which is why Jesus was reluctant in using it. When He was asked ‘are you the Christ’ He hardly ever gave a straight answer. The reason was that His definition of The Christ and their definition had hardly any points in common. They thought in terms of military conquest and Israel’s domination of the world as a super-race. He thought in terms of substitutionary sacrifice of His own life to set the sinners free. To say ‘yes’ to the question ‘are you the Christ?’ would only have confirmed them in their folly.False ‘Christs’ in this sense are those who say ‘God says’ when He hasn’t. People who submit to no external authority because they say they themselves are ‘christed’ and are equal in authority to the apostles and to Christ Himself. They arise inside churches and outside them. The belong to organisations or are independent. Their common characteristic is ‘autonomy’; self-authority. Some will claim to be ‘Jesus Returned’, some will deny He ever came in the flesh, the motto is ‘we will not have this man to reign over us’.I’m not sure what your point is in this posting. I know that you reject Paul and the Book of Revelation. I know you only accept the occasional verses which fit into your own pre-formed notions. So I am not surprised to hear that you reject these words of Christ. Do you still think of yourself as a Christian? from the same personal email...I am satisfied that Jesus lived to preach and demonstrate "love one another as I have loved you" and that if we follow after His example, loving and forgiving others as best we can, we are Christians. Beliefs about the literal or figurative Bible are all secondary and usually not fruitful. Jesus' message and examples shine clearly through the many translations and interpretations of of the Bible, and that, for me, is the only real test of its Truth. This Jesus that you believe in who was not virgin born, and did not die as God’s substitute for all sinners, and who did not rise from the dead, is a figment of your imagination. You are putting your faith in the ‘Gospel according to Jake’, and I tremble for you.

I'm not sure if Jake wants others to respond, or if we really want to walk these paths again, but a few questions I think would be helpful for me to understand exactly where he's coming from:You (Jake) seem to affirm some of what the Bible teaches, particularly those parts concerned with humans loving one another as they love themselves. Do you believe Jesus actually existed, had a ministry, and taught that concept? Why do you affirm that men should love one another as they love themselves? By what standard do you judge such a concept?On the other hand, you reject other parts of the Scripture, particularly those parts concerned with God creating beings and then damning some of them. Do you believe that Jesus, the prophets, and/or the apostles taught such concepts? By what standard do you judge these concepts as being wrong?Why do you trust your standard?Thank you,-Keith

If you have no love for yourself you will not be able to show love to others. Let us define this "love." It is not an egotistical, self gratifying love, but one that is best illuminated in 1 Corinthians 13.

You are putting your faith in the ‘Gospel according to Jake’, and I tremble for you.I agree. I think of II Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some,... The problem with these types of false teachings is that they are like leaven. The lies spread like a miasma, making excuse for those who oppose themselves and dispelling the fear of the Lord. It's the age old tactic of the Devil! 1) Undermine what God said with foolish questionsif that don't work2) Undermine the penalty for sinif that don't work3) Make the penalty seem way distant in the futureThere is no new thing under the Sun. Yet, for those of us who know better and have seen the same line up of evidence as those who don't believe God's word, there are those who are immediately taken off guard by this stuff. It makes new converts waver in the faith. Listen to this passage; But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. (II Peter 2:1) It would be a horrible thing to have to be judged of God in order to have God's word authenticated in your own eyes. Think of it, your judgment becomes the confirmation; yet, you can't take heed because you are gone. Personally, I would not want to be confirmation for someone else. Damnable heresy is about as serious of sin as it gets. If there is even a drop of fear of God- I pray it kicks in!

Quote:3) Make the penalty seem way distant in the future Yet, isn't that the most pertinent lesson of this disaster? Our life is but a vapor. On vacation one day and washed into eternity the next. Preparing a meal for your family one moment, and fighting to save your life the next. Will you have time to repent? Even if I haven't figured out who the Antichrist is, I could be gone tomorrow. Jesus may not come next week, but you might go to Him.There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And Jesus answered and said to them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. "Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish." Luke 13:1-5