And what about the early church????

I have to chuckle when I see a title thread that starts out with 'early church' and a posting by one of those we call the 'church fathers'. I am puzzled as why the posters only go to the second century. I mean if you are going to the early church then take it back to Christ and the Apostles. And for the record I am not a Cambelite Church of Christ.

When one reads Mat.18 one sees Christ is building his church and he is still building it today. The church was was birthed in Acts 2 through the pouring out of the Holy Spirit. At first the early believers met in the temple but later separated and formed its own identy in Jesus. In the first 30 or so years the church was a living breathing, ORGANISM. Not the organization that evolved in the second century. That is not a typo. Organization began creeping into the church at the close of the first century and evolved into the montrosity we have today.

Reason being the church was turning away from the Holy Spirit by the end of the first century. One could observe that the church at the end of the first century was not the sane dynamic church that one saw in the first 30 years being birthed and spreading out of Jerusalem. Thie early church was full of life and joy of Jesus. It had signs and wonders. The pagans were drawn to the church in Acts because it offered something their religions could not offer. It offered life. The life of Jesus.

Has anyone ever wondered how did the early church survive and even thrive? I mean the Acts church had no Bible, no church fathers, no Sermon Index, Yet they grew and preached the gospel. How did they do it? They had the Holy Spirit. In all honesty the early Acts church had more of a dependence on the Holy Spirit then the American church does today. Actually the theology of the American church does not allow for the working of the Holy Spirit.

For the first 3 decades or so the church in Acts was in dependence on the Holy Spirit and remarkably the church flourished. Even in its first doctrinal crisis there was no appealing to the church fathers. None to appeal to. But during the circumcism controversy James said it seemed good to the Holy Spirot and us. There was an appeal to the Holy Spirit and his wisdom.

If we believe that Revelations was written around 90 AD or so there is a powerful plea of Jesus to the churches of Asia Minor. To all of the seven churches Jesus says he that has an ear let him hear what the SPIRIT SAYS to the churches. This is almost like a prophetic cry as the churches were starting to listen to men and not the Spirit.

The amazing thing is that same Spirit is still speaking today. Where you ask? China, Iran, Africa. But not in America or Europe. You look back and long for the revivals of times past. You want to see another Jonathan Edwards or Owen Roberts.

Saints look around the world and revival is happening. Look at China. China is called the modern day book of Acts. Look at Iran. Does anyone know what is happening in Iran? Are you aware that in 1979 there were only 500 believers in Iran under the Shaw. Now 30 years, later there are over 100,000 believers in Iran controlled by Islam. Voice of the Martyrs estimate between 500 to 600 people a day are coming to Christ in Iran and that number is expected to grow. That is the Spirit moving. That is revival.

There were some Cbineese house church leaders who were touring some American mega churches. When asked what they thought of the American churches. They respectfully answered, 'It is amazing what the American church can do.......without the Holy Spirit.'

Blaine Scogin

'It is amazing what the American church can do.......without the Holy Spirit.'

Fact check: Who said this?

Not that I dont agree with that statement because I do... I just hear a lot of "quotes" like that from pulpits, etc and I wonder if they are were actual quotes, or just made up by some preacher somewhere to make a point.

Krispy

I remember seeing that quote in a magazine but don't remember which one. It might have been something out of VOM. Maybe someone ekse in the forum might know.

Blaine

Doug,

Brother I appreciate your post and the spirit in which it was written. While your observation may be valid I must respectfully take a different view. Or rather offer a different angle. The fact that their may be different interpretations of scripture should not stop us at the second century. We can go to Acts and see how the early church operated and did so with consensus. They operated in an accord with the Holy Spirit.

When you look at Acts 15 the young church was facing its first doctrinal crisis. The crisis was how to view these new Gentile believers coming. into the church. One party in the church was saying that in addition to believing in Jesus the Gentiles had to be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses. Paul and Barnabas were saying that salvation was solely by faith in Jesus Christ.

The upshot of all of this was a conference convened in Jerusalem. The apostles and elders were in uncharted waters. There was no Sermon Index, no church, fathers, no creeds to reference. There was the Torah and other Old Testament scriptures. But God was doing a new thing in the early days if the Acts church. The new thing was the Holy Spirit.

There was much discussion and debate and no doubt much prayer for the Spirit's wisdom. What emerged was the letter to the Gentiles. There is an interesting phrase in that letter that says 'it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and us'.

I share Acts 15 because this is one example of the Acts church listening to the Spirit and not to men. And this is where the concern lies. We have this collection of men called the church fathers. We elevate them as the final authority in certain matters. But they are only men. Whether it be the church fathers or the Puritains they are only men. We do better to listen to the Spirit through his word.

The scriptures tell us that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and foreever. Jesus spoke the same thing to the churches in Revelation when he said that he that has an ear let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. That same Spirit is still speaking today.

At the risk of being heretical, we do better to set aside the church fathers and listen to Jesus.

Blaine

Bonjour my brother. And amen. I am so sorry my French is limited. But may we truly listen to his blessed Spirit.

Blaine

Sister do agree. There is a profound mystery when we partake of that holy nature that becomes the incarnated word in our lives.

Blaine

Ever since I started this thread I have been thinking about the early church. Not the one of the second century. But the early church of Acts. I stand in awe of how God used a group of 'unschooled, ordinary' men and women to acomplish the work of preaching Christ to the then known world. How did they do it?

I mean imagine. You are one of the eleven disciples in Mat. 28. You have been charged to go and make disciples of ALL the nations. You have no game plan, no strategy, no mission board to back, not even a group of intercessors to pray for you. So how are you going to accomplish this monmental task?

I imagine the disciples forgot that Jesus said he would be with them til the end of the age. A promise for us today. Jesus was going to empower the disciples for world evangelism and discipleship. This promise is restated again Acts 1:8 when we see Jesus telling the apostles they would recieve power when the Holy Spirit came upon them. They would be witnesses of Christ in Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth. An activity that still goes on today. God was and still empowering his church to go and witness of Christ and make disciples in his name. When you read Acts you see this is what common, unschooled people did. They were advancing the kingdom of God.

It is hard for us in the 21st century to wrap our minds around this. We feel the more complex things are the greater the advancing if his kingdom. We read Acts like a Tim LaHaye novel, something like Christian fiction. I leave with you with this true story as reported by Open Doors.

A few years ago two young Cbineese peasant sisters came to Christ. With Bibles being scarce they had only one New Testament.t given to them to share. They only had a few weeks of discipling. Persecution was a threat in that area so the trainers could not stayong. A few few months later a brother followed up on the sisters to see how they were doing. Here is how the coversation went.

Brother....Sisters, what have you been doing?

Sisters with bowed heads and meekness......Honorable brother we have been sharing Jesus and starting churches. (SI please hold your judgement. This is China after all.)

Brother with condescending look.....Oh really! Starting. churches? How many people in your smallest church?

Sisters with respectful pose and quietly talking to each other........Honorable brother our smallest church has 25 people.

Brother still with condescending look.....Oh really. Ok. How many people in your largest church and how many churches have you started.

Sisters still with submissive bowed heads quietly talking to one another........Honorable brother our largest church has over 5000 people and we have started over 30 churches.

Brother with stunned look.......5000 people and 30 churches. How did you do this? You only had a few weeks of training.

Sisters with resolved looks at brother........We pray to the Holy Spirit and do what he tells us to do.

End of story.

Blaine

Amen Brother Doug.

Here is the problem. So many things that the Evangelical Church in North America, considers true is false. So many practices of the modern evangelical church are cultural and not Scriptural. The early church fathers were much closer to the apostolic original then our modern churches and we would do very well to look to them more even if it goes against everything you felt was right in your church situation.

Here is the problem it sounds very spiritual to say we just need to listen to the Holy Spirit or follow Jesus but the original Apostles called our Master the Lord Jesus Christ and not just a glib jesus and that the Holy Spirit to the Apostles was a person of the Trinity who was given to those that obeyed Him.

The Holy Spirit led into obedience and sacrifice in the days of the Apostles. And the Holy Spirit was not just for their comfort or to recieve a "word" from for their selfish spirituality.

We need to really ask if we have the genuine article and if we are willing to look to the early church fathers as having more truth then us. This might be true.!!

I've tried using the ECF, those that were contemporaries to the Apostles and those discipled by those contemporaries to prove out a post-trib resurrection and a coming anti-Christ but it doesn't persuade many.
I have a much longer list of quotes, but can't find it right now but this link says a lot on just that one topic ...

http://www.totall.exagorazo.net/Post-Tribulation/Mirrors/Last%20Trumpet%202000/www.geocities.com/lasttrumpet_2000/ecf/index.html

Much to my displeasure, I was forced to study cults, heresies and the RCC for far too long and found that the great majority of these splinter groups that you mention, Doug, are because of one person that wants a following, so he adds a new teaching or new law to GOD's Word and wha-lah - all of these off-shoots of protestantism.

Paul lamented with tears, that as soon as he would leave *Ephesus that ravenous wolves would rise up from among the number there and twist doctrine - so this problem is nothing new and Satan has the wisdom of who to pick, who's open to some sort of ego-trip, like Mary Baker Eddy or Joseph Smith, etc. etc. that will cause another split between us - but Paul said that division was necessary to seperate the approved from those who are not.
Some followed Jesus just for the fish and bread - others to gainsay over others.

The only sure fire way to prove out a doctrine is with The Word of GOD and a good working knowledge of the Greek, 'if' in a debate - but even then, the word heresy defined from the Greek is "the opinion chosen" and if a person isn't open - nothing on earth will dissuade them - not The Word of GOD nor the words of those who knew the Apostles.
The further on and away from the contemporaries of the Apostles, the less reliable these ECF become. I only know that from being forced to debate a RCC scholar/author.

When the ECFs begin to contradict the contemporaries of the Apostles, that's when one realizes that what Paul said was true - as soon as he left the Church, it started and if a person cannot be shown error from using The Word of GOD alone and with the original languages and grammar - that is what Jesus told us would happen as well.

New ideas make somebody, somebody, and that's the way every schism in church history started.

We're praying for John 17 to come soon. Hope more join in. Amen.

Respectfully we must come to an understanding of the Holy Spirit's ministry in the church today. His ministry is an ongoing ever present dynamic. The same Spirit that spoke to the church in Acts is still speaking to the church today. God told Moses in the burning bush 'I AM that I AM'. Jesus told the Jews that before Abraham was born I AM. Jesus in answering the Saducees said I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. He is not the God of the dead but of the living. He is a present reality.

If the Spirit be God and the scriptures say he is. Then the Spirit is a present dynamic speaking to the church even today. I began this thread by asking the question how did the Acts church preach the gospel without the church fathers or a complete Bible. They had the promise of Acts 1:8. They had the Holy Spirit and the gospel was marvouy preached. People were converted, lives were changed, and the kingdom grew. All without the church fathers, Greek and Hebrew word studies, and so forth. We bless God that such are available. But one wonders is the church in America doing any better with our Bible schools, seminaries, wotd studies, church fathers and so forth. We have correct theology but do we have the Spirit. Do we have Jesus. Peter and John were two ignorant fishermen. The NIV called them unschooled, ordinary men. But the Jewish leadership took note they had been with Jesus.

In places like Iran and China great moves of God are taking place. Revival if you will. These places lack many of the resources we have. They do not even have Bibles. But they have the Holy Spirit movingi in power.

I say again the Acts church had a greater dependence on the Holy Spirit than the church in America. And look what they accomplished. The church in China and Iran have a far greater dependence on the Holy Spirit and look what they are acomplidhing. VOM estimates 500 or more people come to Christ a day in Iran. I doubt very seriously if that many come to Christ a month in this country. It goes back to the power of the Holy Spirit.

Also I get concerned when we elevate a body of men, as the church fathers, as the sole repositors of truth. That may not be the intent. But it seems there is this attitude they got it all together. Let us remember they are only men. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit if truth. He is the one who will lead us and guide us into all of the truth.

Respectfully,

Blaine Scogin

In places like Iran and China great moves of God are taking place. Revival if you will. These places lack many of the resources we have. They do not even have Bibles. But they have the Holy Spirit movingi in power.

Brother,

what many do not understand is that the Chinese home church network has rules, authority structure and submission that many would not follow in the West considering it "cultish" and "controlling". The Holy Spirit in these believers leads them to sacrifice for the Gospel in submitting to authority, and church practice and doctrine. Watchman Nee established much of what the church order is for the home churches and part of this order in scripture was headcoverings for the sisters. (which is practiced by many in home churches).

Watchman Nee's desire was to go back to the Early Church Fathers and Apostles and see what is the most Biblical Church practice and he gleamed much from the "brethren" movements which were an attempt to do this. A great book on this subject of church structure that has been practiced throughout the 2000 years by small remnant groups is: The Pilgrim Church by B.H. Broadbent.

The fact is that the Holy Spirit is not a liscense for us to be free to practice our religion how we want but leads us into submission to authority and to biblical doctrine and practice. The Spirit of God leads into all truth. That truth is not defined by us but we must lose our own wills and allow the Spirit to lead us into this truth and obedience to God's will.

We want to follow the Apostles Traditions. Also we want to follow the ways of those after the apostles. It is clear those traditions were not diluted or changed much till AD 300. To say all the churches became legalistic somehow right after the 12 apostles died is not right nor valid.

The confusion modern evangelicals have with the concept that it is all by grace and that you cannot lose the salvation is one of the major problems when therefore reading "ANY" church fathers even letters RIGHT AFTER the apostles NONE of it works with the New Testament and it is like reading a legalistic rule book compared to the idea of grace that many protray. But whe n the New Testament is read rightily with the right emphasis on Grace and Truth and in the fear of the Lord then those other writings fit very clearly.

Many evangelicals have no idea or cannot fit the idea in Revelation why the Spirit of Christ says repeatedly: "We will be judged by our works" I know thy works!

The Church Fathers relied on the Spirit of God and saw great exploits in their day, as the Gospel spread to the 4 corners of the earth, with great unity and blessing from the Lord.

Hi Brother Doug. I don't see where you and I are in any disagreement, foundationally speaking.

Only here, in this one paragraph, if I could just add a bit of my understanding -

""You seem to realize this when specify the cult founders of so-called "Christian Science" and of "Mormonism." I was not referring to how cults are founded, (i.e. through deceit and lies), but how well-meaning Christian denominations are founded,(i.e. through looking to the Word and lots of people agreeing together that they are "feeling led" by the Spirit to understand some certain text or texts differently than others.)""

If Jesus promised that His Spirit would "lead us into all truth", then these who are "feeling led" to understand differently than what is Truly Biblical, are being "led" by what spirit? Is there any "spiritually neutral ground"? And if "heresy" is defined by GOD as, "Choice, to choose for oneself, the opinion chosen" - then to me, it would seem the source of their non-Biblical beliefs are no different than the same source who would stretch things even further to be called a cult... ie, same spirit or "a different spirit", or a "different Jesus", as Jesus 'is' The Word of GOD and no lie is of the truth. Any belief that is against what The Word of GOD in it's/His entirety states, is from the father of lies to divide HIS Body --- same 'source' that would produce a cult as well.

I believe the controversy may be over a thread posted here on the Revival section. A thread that I've thoroughly enjoyed, but know that the topic is the most debated topic on any forum and one that won't be resolved until The LORD returns, though we pray that as the darkness increases in this world that His Light will be poured out all the more. It's possible that that may happen, from reading Daniel :) and then at the same time - we'd see the fulfillment, once and for all of John 17 - Jesus' prayer and ours.
And if the thread that I read on this Revival section, that quotes the ECF on 'Salvation' is being questioned - I know that Brother Blaine would agree with those quotes, doctrinally and by knowing that they are from those who sat under the Apostles, themselves. Rather amazing thread at that. Is there a link for it? - I can't find it on a web search and there's subtitles that we're instructed to see that need a link to see.

The LORD Bless you and I pray that we all see that, on this particular thread - that in the end - it 'does' indeed take His Spirit to lead us into all truth, as you, as well as Blaine have agreed on - and that it does take our own 'freewills' to receive His True Truths.
The thread that may be in question is, in my mind, an important one - especially in these days.

His Best to you both.

Resoefully.brothers and sisters,

The New Testament reminds us of the centrality of the gospel. The Apostle Paul writes 1 Cor.15 that he passed on to us, even today, what he also recieved. That Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, and that he was buried, and that he rose on the third day according. to the scriptures. In essence this was the message that the early church in Acts proclaimed and lived out. And this is the same message the church of today proclaims and lives out. The gospel message is about faith andife in Jesus Christ.

But how are we to live out the reality found in Jesus. It has to be through his Spirit. I raised the question in this thread how did the Acts church spread and live out the gospel. It was with a dependence upon the Spirit. Before the church fathers or even the Bible the Holy Spirit was present shepherding, counseling, guiding the young church. His gifts were present to build up the church. His servants were empowered to preach the gospel and do miraclrs to autheticate that gospel.

Saints this is what I am trying to convey. The church in Acts was successfully dynamic because of her dependence on the Hoky Spirit. I know I am sounding like a broken record. But when you read Acts how could the first century church do what she did without the Spirit? For that matter how can the churches in China, Iran, and India do what they are doing without the Holy Spirit. Jesus taught that apart from me you can do nothing.

Greg and Doug I seem to hear you say that dependence on the Spirit of truth apart from the church fathers will lead to doctrinal error. I don't think so. If onei is holding to the gospel message as Paul articulated 1 Cor.15 and faithful in reading the New Testament under the instruction of the Spirit God will preserve him from false teaching. The promise of John 10 is the sheep will not listen to the voice of the stranger. Of course a Christ-centered fellowship woukd be a great help.

Brothers I am not trying to be devisive in my posts but urge for a dependence upon the Spirit of Jesus. I think we all woud agree that the gospel is central in our walk with Jesus and its message is what saves the lost. I pray that we would be filled with the Spirit's power so we can live out and proclaim that message.

Respectfully,

Blaine