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Given Her for a Covering by Mike Atnip

sermonindex Oct 13, 2011


An exposition of 1 Corinthians 11:15

For 18 centuries, the title phrase never caught much attention from the people of God. Then came the 1800s, and new voices began to arise. New ways of looking at things. Questions of authority, questions of translation accuracy, questions about validity of long-established practices and teachings.

Yes, the question of covering the female head in public was one of those long-established practices that began to be questioned in the early 1800s. Was it mere coincidence that the question of covering the female head came right at the same time as the question of the woman teaching the man and taking leadership positions in the church? Both were long-settled practices. In the early church writings, both positions were clearly staked out: The woman was not to teach the man, and she was to cover her head in public as a sign of being under his authority. While occasionally a few small sects broke protocol and allowed women to preach to men, there seems to not have been a single group in the first 19 centuries of church history that questioned the use of a cloth-covered head for the woman. In fact, the practice and teaching was so well established, that, after the first couple of centuries, very few writers ever mentioned the issue, other than in passing.

Why so little in church history concerning the veil and long hair?

While thousands of volumes have been written about baptism, communion, and other topics, everything written during the first 19 centuries concerning the veil and long hair could probably be fitted on a couple of sheets of paper. The Ante-Nicene Fathers contain several quotations in definite support of using a veil, but the only real tract on the subject comes from Tertullian, somewhere around the year 200 A.D. And even that tract did not argue the question of whether “the covering” was a veil or long hair, but whether unmarried girls should use veils, and the age at which they should start wearing them.

Why so little attention to the topic? Simple. People generally don’t spend much time writing about things that everyone agrees upon. Simply put, all Christians of every stripe and color agreed that 1 Corinthians 11 taught that women should cover their heads in public as a sign of submission to their husband or father. The practice and teaching was so universally agreed upon that no one wrote much about it for a millennium and a half.

Then came the 19th century. New winds were blowing in Protestant lands. The woman’s place in the church was being questioned. Was she really supposed to keep quiet in the church? Did that mean not teach and preach to men?

Women’s “liberation” and unveiling

While the themes of women keeping silence in the church and the covering of her head in public as a sign of submission to the man were rarely tied together in public debates, they are rather intrinsically united. After all, if a covered head is a sign of submission to the man, how could a woman be in a leadership position in a congregation, and at the same time wear a veil as a sign of being under authority to the man? Veiled heads and leadership simply just don’t mix!

Returning to the theme of church history, in the early 1800s more churches began to allow women to start preaching to men (the Quakers had allowed women to speak in the assembly before then). At the same time, questions arose about the use of a veil, and by the end of the century, a good number of the Protestant churches in the USA had dropped the head veil, claiming that long hair was the covering, not a cloth veil. Another century passed, and by our time in 2010, the vast majority of churches worldwide have dropped the use of the veil … and long hair as well. Even the Catholic Church succumbed to the tide, and by the end of the 1900s, only certain nuns and socially conservative areas were still wearing veils.

As mentioned above, the use of a veil was so commonly accepted that no one focused—that is, focused enough to specifically write a tract—on the topic for 1500 years. But when the Protestants in America began to drop the practice, other churches begin to see the need to defend it in writings and make statements in their Confessions of Faith in support of veiling the head. This explains why early Anabaptist Confessions of Faith, for example, do not mention the head covering. In earlier times, they had little reason to expound on an issue that everyone, and I mean everyone, agreed upon.

Examining the phrase

There are two basic reasons why most churches reject a veil today.

They say covering the head with a veil was indeed a cultural practice of Paul’s day, but it is not intended for today. Most of those who think this way also accept women wearing short hair, since long hair and a veil are tied together.
They say that 1 Corinthians 11:15 teaches that long hair is the covering.
So let’s take a look at what “for her hair is given her for a covering” means.

What is “a covering”?

A Greek peribolaiou was a veil, or in the case of Hebrews 1:12 (the only other place the word is used in the NT), a mantle or cape. The word is a compound of “peri” (meaning “around”) and “ballo” (which means “to throw”). A head veil—as something that is “thrown around” the head—is clearly the intended meaning in 1 Corinthians 11:15. There is really no dispute about this word, and practically every English translation available translates it as “covering” or “veil.”

What does “for” mean?

The whole interpretation of 1 Corinthians 11:15 hinges on a single little word: for. And what a varied little word it can be! My Webster’s Unabridged Dictionary gives no less than 27 meanings under “for.” The following are the dictionary entries that could make sense with the context of our verse:

In the place of; instead of; as a substitute or equivalent
As representative of, on behalf of
With reference or in regard to
Because of; on account of, by reason of
With a view to the use and benefit of[1]
Essentially, we can narrow the definitions to two options: either the hair was given to replace the veil, or it was given as a response to a veil. The English word “for” can be used in both ways.

And the Greek?

In cases of ambiguity like this one, the original language can sometimes shed some light. Turning to the Greek text, we find that “for” is a translation of the Greek word anti. Literally translated, we see that “her hair is given her anti a covering.”

Immediately our English minds think, “Ah! Anti means opposed to. That means that her long hair is opposed to a veil!”

And that could be the case. But …

Anti is like our English word “for,” having more than one meaning. Let’s take a look …

For my own personal research, I looked at around ten different Greek-English lexicons. They were all agreed, although various shades of meaning came out. Some of these lexicons dealt only with biblical Greek, others dealt with the whole range of early Greek writings.

Anti means, literally, “in front of.”[2] In very colloquial English, it means “standing right smack in front of something.” While there are many slightly varying uses of the word in ancient Greek literature, they can all be boiled down to basically two reasons why something is “right in front of” something else:

Two things/people are opposing each other, or one is replacing the other.
Two things/people are responding to each other because one has provoked the other (positively or negatively).
So we have anti meaning either replacement or response. This is exactly what we concluded above, concerning the English word “for.” For that reason, “for” is a good English translation, even though it is ambiguous in its meaning.

Interestingly, both forms of anti have come down to us in transliterated forms in our English language. We are more familiar with the opposition use: antislavery, antiestablishment, antiabortion, etc. and etc.

On the responsive end, we have words like antiphonal (where two people/groups sing in response to each other), and antitype. An antitype is that which corresponds to a type. For example, we say that the brass snake hung on the pole was a type of Christ. We also say that Christ was the antitype of the brass serpent on the pole. Christ and the brass serpent are “right in front of each other,” corresponding to each other.

Since the opposing aspect of anti is the most common form for us in English, it is only natural to immediately think in that aspect when we see anti in 1 Corinthians 11:15. To get us used to the idea that anti also means “corresponding to,” we will look at a few New Testament verses where it is used that way.

Matthew 5:38 “eye anti eye, and tooth anti tooth.” This is a very classical use of anti in the sense of “corresponding to” or “as a response to.” Other similar phrases found in the New Testament are “evil anti evil,” “grace anti grace,” and “railing anti railing.” In all these cases, the first is a response to the second.
Luke 1:20 “And, behold, thou shalt be dumb, and not able to speak, until the day that these things shall be performed, antithou believest not my words, which shall be fulfilled in their season.” Here we see that the first part of the sentence was a result of the second part. Here, anti is used in the response sense. The response to Zacharias’ unbelief was dumbness.
Luke 19:44 “And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; anti thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.” Again, we see that the destruction of Jerusalem was a response to their rejection of the Messiah. This happened because of that.
Ephesians 5:31 “Anti this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.” This is another case of response. The response to God making male and female was that the male will leave the security and love of his father’s home, to begin his own.
Hebrews 12:2 “Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who anti the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.” In this case, our King James Version uses the word “for” in the responsive sense. As a response to the joy set before Him, Jesus endured the cross.
James 4:15 “Anti that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.” Once again we see anti translated to “for,” in the responsive sense. As a response to the uncertainties of life, we should say, “If the Lord wills …”
So …

Should “her long hair is given to her anti a covering” mean that the long hair replaces the covering, or is it a response to the covering (and all that the covering represents)?

If this sentence were all by itself, we would never be able to know. It could accurately be translated either way:

“her long hair is given her to replace a covering.”
“her long hair is given her in response to a covering.”
Listed below are a few alternative ways to say anti (in the responsive sense) in 1 Corinthians 11:15, gathered from the information in various Greek-English lexicons:

“her long hair is given her as a response to a covering.”
“her long hair is given her because of a covering.”
“her long hair is given her for the cause of a covering.”
“her long hair is given her in light of a covering.”
“her long hair is given her in consequence of a covering.”
“her long hair is given her in consideration of a covering.”
In each of the above phrases, we see that the first part (her long hair) is a result of the second part (a covering). Taking the liberty to change the order of the sentence—and using colloquial English—we can correctly translate the phrase to, “in response to what a veil represents, long hair was given (by God) to the woman.”

Modern translations

The last couple of decades have produced a profusion of English translations of the Bible. This can be confusing, and, personally, I think it is just another one of Satan’s tactics to confuse God’s people. Not that modern translations are always all wrong, but just the multiplicity of versions is enough to cause people to wonder, “Just what does the Bible say?”

Concerning 1 Corinthians 11:15, I have seen a number of the modern translations along the line of “given to her as a covering” or “given to her in place of a covering.” The reason this happens is because the translators take the liberty to use the opposition definition of anti. The older versions like the KJV, the RSV, and the ASV all stayed with simply translating anti to “for,” and allowed the reader to make the judgment as to what sense of “for” was meant. Students of the Bible need to be aware of this, both for 1 Corinthians 11:15 and for other scriptures.

The context

We have been given a couple of other witnesses to help us understand the meaning of this phrase: the context of the verse, and historical practice.

Concerning context, the replacement aspect of anti makes little sense in verse 15 when we look at verse 6: “For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.” If her long hair is given to replace her covering, it makes absolutely no sense to say, “But if the woman doesn’t have long hair, let her also be shorn or shaven.”

On the other hand, to say that her long hair was given to her as a natural response to a covering, verse six makes perfect sense: If the woman takes off her veil, she should also respond by taking off her corresponding long hair. In other words, if the man’s authority is taken off of her, so should her glory.

The whole point of the long hair being a response to a veil is actually quite simple. Because a man is not supposed to cover his head (since a covered head[3] represents submission to man), neither should he let his hair grow. On the other hand, since a woman is supposed to cover her head, having long hair is not a problem … the hair is in fact given to her by God because of the very fact that it is on the same part of her body that is to be covered. It was God’s response to His own law. Underneath the covering of authority was another covering of glory! It is actually a very meaningful picture, because (for) in the kingdom of God, the lowest servant has the highest glory! Hidden underneath submission is great beauty. What a jewel in the kingdom of God. Amen!

Historical practice

While historical practice in and of itself does not automatically make something sound doctrine, one can hardly ignore 1800 years of unified teaching and practice. As mentioned already, every Early Church reference to 1 Corinthians 11:1-15 unanimously teaches the use of a cloth veil. Then for the next 1500 years, not a single voice opposed that teaching. It was only in the late 1700s or early 1800s that the practice began to be questioned, finally to be abandoned by the majority of the churches by the time the mid-1900s rolled around. Can we really write off 1800 years of unified practice and teaching on a subject? Yes, we could. But we are not very wise to scorn one of the few teachings that was not questioned by any notable Christian[4] for 18 centuries.

What shall we say?

We have seen that, textually, the interpretation of 1 Corinthians 11:15 hinges upon which definition of anti is used. Either a woman’s long hair opposes and replaces a head veil, or it is a response to what a veil represents. Both definitions can be grammatically correct. So we have to look to the context for our answer. Contextually, it is clear that her long hair was God’s response to her submission to the authority of the man. He glorified what was in submission. And, 19 centuries of church history back up that interpretation.

What can we say, except that the Christian woman should cover her head as a symbol of submission, and with long hair in a natural response to that? And if she does not wish to cover her head with authority, she should also be stripped of her glory. For her hair is given to her because of a veil. ~

[1]Webster’s New Universal Unabridged Dictionary, 714-715.

[2] For those familiar with the Spanish tongue, ante in Spanish corresponds very closely to the response aspect of the Greek anti. So that we can say, “Ante un velo, le fue dado a la mujer el cabello.” Unfortunately, the Spanish versions tend toward the weaker expression, “en lugar de,” which creates the same ambiguity as the English “for” does.

[3] This study is not about the size of the covering, but as a side note we need to come to terms with the fact that it is a “covered head” that signifies submission, not “a covering on the head.” Many women have “a covering” on their head, but their head is not really covered. The Greek word for “cover” is rooted in the idea of “hidden.” The covering is supposed to “hide” the head, which signifies that the head (authority) is covered over by a man’s authority. In addition, we need to remember that to have the symbol (the hidden head) without the reality (submission to the man) is hypocrisy.

[4] I personally do not know of a single opposition, but I do not know everything. If anyone for the first 18 centuries of church history did oppose the use of a veil, he is certainly not well known.


from: http://www.charityministries.org/theremnant/2010/09/theremnant-2010-09-covering.a5w

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Heydave Oct 13, 2011

Another article on Head covering! :)
However this quite a good exposition of the text.

Here's my question though. For those who teach that the head covering for women is all the time they are in public, you have to accept that in the very same passage (1 Corinthians 11:4-5) it says that 'Every MAN praying or prohesying, having HIS HEAD COVERED, dishonours his head (Christ)'. I have never heard teaching saying that men should NEVER cover their heads in public. However you cannot insist on women being covered without the man being un-covered, because it is the same argument put forward by Paul. It's just illogical.

So, any man who insists that a woman has her head covered at all times in public, you also dare not cover your head at the same time!

Makes more sense to see this as a practice for corporate worship I think.

I do think that this is not such a big issue with the LORD as we make it. I sometimes wonder what Jesus would say about it if He was asked. Maybe in the same way he spoke to the religious folk during His earthly ministry, He would rebuke our concentration on outward things and remind us of the inner life and heart condition.

E
enid Oct 13, 2011

Haven't read the entire article yet, its quite long.

But, I do ask, should a man cover his head, and a woman not cover hers, will they go to hell for it?

Its a rhetorical question, no answer necessary.

sermonindex Oct 13, 2011

Heydave writes...... "Another article on Head covering! :)"

Yeah, makes you wonder.

"So, any man who insists that a woman has her head covered at all times in public, you also dare not cover your head at the same time!"

I wonder what the original poster makes of this question, does he cover his head at all times and if not, why not?
I agree that this tradition existed for at least 1800 years, yet the doctrine, in fact the central doctrine that burns at the heart of Catholicism, has existed for at least 1200 years, transubstantiation. I wonder if the author believes that this established doctrine is correct? Remember, those who believe this long practised doctrine believe that they have Scriptural authority based on John 6..........brother Frank


transubstantiation

H
Heydave Oct 13, 2011

Hi Frank,

You wrote "I wonder what the original poster makes of this question, does he cover his head at all times and if not, why not?"

I think it should read "does he UNCOVER his head at all times".

Blessings.

Dave.

sermonindex Oct 13, 2011

But, I do ask, should a man cover his head, and a woman not cover hers, will they go to hell for it?

Its a rhetorical question, no answer necessary.

Sister, absolutely not. It is not an issue of a sin that is practiced that one will not enter into life. It is like Baptism but not as serious. If one is not baptised or even baptised the right way then that does not change their "new birth" experience. Yet who would fight God on baptism if they are regenerated by him and then God asks for the first small step of disobedience and imagine someone saying: NO!.

It is the same but not as immediately serious with headcoverings and church practice. There is a level of importance to it as a step of obedience to the Lord and His Spirit but it is not required for salvation. There are many other issues like this in the new testament that are small commands and levels of obedience which we should all desire to walk in as the Spirit of the Lord gives us light.

Commands are not imposed by led into by the Spirit of God with a thankful heart of obedience or else it is a dead work and worse before the Lord.

I am bringing out many articles on issues in Christendom that have been forgotten or layed aside and trust the Spirit of God will led some sisters into these truths. I am not trying to condemn anyone by posting these so dear sisters please feel free in your spirit to obey the Lord.

God bless.

sermonindex Oct 13, 2011

:) Yes, your right Dave.........brother Frank

R
rainydaygirl Oct 13, 2011

I edited my post. Decided against stepping into this thread.

rdg

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dietolive Oct 13, 2011

Insightful article. Not comprehensive, but concise.

All of the unanswered questions will still need to be answered to satisfy the curious and encourage the seeking.

Doug

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Heydave Oct 13, 2011

Hi Greg,

Thanks for your reply to Enid, as I think it gives good perspective on this issue and other similar ones.

What would be your thoughts on men not covering their heads when praying and prophysying or at any time? It does seem quite important, as we would not want to dishonour our head, who is Christ.

Do we as men ever think about this scripture?

D
dietolive Oct 13, 2011

Hi Heydave. (Nice to "meet" you.)

You wrote:
"However you cannot insist on women being covered without the man being un-covered, because it is the same argument put forward by Paul. It's just illogical."

Strictly speaking, the apostle was inspired by the Spirit of Jesus to say "WHEN you pray or prophesy..." He did not specify WHERE, (take another look and recall that the chapter breaks, headings, and even the paragraphs in your Bible were [EDIT: "not"] in the inspired original.) Necessarily therefore, according to the laws of logical deduction, that would mean the apostle means "WHENEVER you pray or prophesy..."

Now consider if you will dear Brother, that there are approximately 115 waking hours in a week. We know we are to "pray without ceasing", and that opportunities to prophesy abound. Regarding our dear Sisters therefore, according to the LETTER of the text here before us, our dear Sisters must at least, if they are to be pleasing to their Lord, wear the headcovering whenever they pray or prophesy.

As you can see, having to carry around a shawl or other kind of covering, and be putting it on and taking it off all day long would be rather cumbersome. would it not? Of course it would, and it would seem like a silly burden as well. But simply wearing it, keeping it on, removes that difficulty.

You continue:
"So, any man who insists that a woman has her head covered at all times in public, you also dare not cover your head at the same time!"

This is a "non sequitur", i.e., this conclusion does not necessarily follow, for the very reasons I gave above.

Also, life and health are factors in this discussion as well. Our good Lord, who knows how to give good things to us, does not condemn the "accidental" covering of a conscientious man, where there is a true necessity for warmth, or the need to protect from the sun, just as He does not condemn the uncovering of a conscientious woman, due to the "accidents" of wind or dire poverty.

You conclude:
"I do think that this is not such a big issue with the LORD as we make it."

This particular apostolic practice is, my dear Brother, such a big deal that the Holy Spirit chose to breath it out, and preserve it for it almost two thousand years, until it made its way into the book of 1 Corinthians in the very Bible in your hands.

This same Jesus, the One who spoke through His apostles, yet speaks today. A profound thought for us all to seriously meditate upon.

Be well dear Brother,
Doug

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dietolive Oct 13, 2011

Hi Brother!

You wrote:
"Heydave writes...... "Another article on Head covering! :)"

Yeah, makes you wonder."

I don't wonder; I know. Brother Greg has already told us many times why he sacrifices his time, and risks the scorn and abuse to speak out on unpopular issues. The WAY upon which he walks is, of necessity, less popular at times, if he is to walk in true love toward the rest of us.

With anguish of soul, such a one must not only encourage his fellow believers, but also at times, must warn them as well. Not many understand this, but the one giving the "bitter medicine" is often as troubled in soul, as the one receiving it... Brother Greg pays a price.

I sense that you know this to be true, my dear Brother.

You continue:
"I agree that this tradition existed for at least 1800 years, yet the doctrine, in fact the central doctrine that burns at the heart of Catholicism, has existed for at least 1200 years, transubstantiation. I wonder if the author believes that this established doctrine is correct? Remember, those who believe this long practiced doctrine believe that they have Scriptural authority based on John 6..........brother Frank"

My Brother, your argument to discredit the writer's argument from antiquity does not follow, for your proof is incorrect. The dogma of Transubstantiation was only promulgated by Rome in 1215 A.D. by the Fourth Lateran Council. It was a rather late invention of the Roman Church (no longer truly Catholic at this point), with not only no basis whatsoever in Scripture, but no true basis in the early ante-nicene Church either.

What does have a basis in Scripture, and what we see the early Christians believing, was the doctrine of the True Spiritual Presence. That is, we do partake of Christ "Spiritually" in Communion. This is by faith alone. Please look at John 6:63 in particular. Notice, he says, his words about eating his flesh and drinking his blood, that they are "Spirit" and "Life", spiritual and living?

Therefore, saying that arguments that the antiquity of the headcovering practice can be dismissed, because after all the Roman Church believed in transubstantiation too, is a non-sequitur, it does not follow.

All of this is spoken in Faith and in Love. I pray you take it so, my friend.

Be well,
Doug

sermonindex Oct 13, 2011

I n all respect I still must propound this question. Why are you debating the appropiatness of wonan praying or prophesying in the church since neither is done?

Brother Greg I am asking in all sincerity, do you believe the gift of prophesy still operates in the church today? It seems pretty backward to argue about externals when very little prayer and certainly no prophrsying is taking place in our churches. If you have no life of the Spirit then all you have is dead religion.

In respect,

Blaine

H
Heydave Oct 13, 2011

Greetings to you also brother.

You will have to forgive me if I am a bit slow to follow, but I cannot see your logic and you have not answered the question.

The scripture clearly says that for a man to cover his head when praying or prophysying is a dishonour to his head (Christ). It also says that for a women to pray and prophesy without covering her head she dishonours her head (man). So then both can dishour their respective heads when praying or prophysying - one by covering the head and the other by not covering. The obvious conclusion is that the only way to honour your head is that the man does not cover his head and the woman does.

Now this is where you have to decide does it mean all the time or just in corporate gatherings. If it is all the time, it MUST apply to both man and woman. Unless I missuderstood you, it seems you were very generous to the man if he put a hat on by accident - how you do that I don't know :) - or has to for warmth, but do not use the same 'measure' for a women. i.e if it is too hot.

So if it is a big deal, please answer the question - Should a man always be without a covering on his head (save a situation he cannot avoid)? What about protection from the sun or safety helmet?

Edit: Is Verse 5 a bigger deal than verse 4?

D
dietolive Oct 13, 2011

Dear Brother Blaine,

You wrote:
"Why are you debating the appropiatness of wonan praying or prophesying in the church since neither is done?"

Dear Brother, I am not debating the appropriateness of women praying or prophesying in the meeting of the Church.

Please read my first explanatory post above.

You continue:
"Brother Greg I am asking in all sincerity, do you believe the gift of prophesy still operates in the church today? It seems pretty backward to argue about externals when very little prayer and certainly no prophesying is taking place in our churches. If you have no life of the Spirit then all you have is dead religion."

What is "prophesy", according to you, dear Brother?

I am no "Cessationist", and I know "prophesy", according to Scripture to mean, (among other things): to speak to spiritually edify, exhort, and comfort another soul. See here:

"But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort." I Corinthians 14:3

Such prophesy can and should be exercised by both men and women at all hours of the day, and where practicable. We all can use "a word in season", even when it isn't the Lord's Day.

Be well Brother,
Doug

L
Lysa Oct 13, 2011

martyr asked:
Brother Greg I am asking in all sincerity, do you believe the gift of prophesy still operates in the church today?

I know that there are women in Pentecostal churches praying and prophesying so I think the better question would be... "in churches that believe women should wear head-coverings, do they allow women to pray (sure they do but out loud?) and/or do they allow a women to prophesy during the worship or church service?

Do these churches even believe in prophesy? (edit: future events should be included in prophesy. AND if they prophesy, do they believe in speaking in tongues? /edit)

I'm just full of questions today!!

God bless us all,
Lisa

D
dietolive Oct 13, 2011

Hi Brother,
Thank you for your response.

You said:
"Unless I missuderstood you, it seems you were very generous to the man if he put a hat on by accident - how you do that I don't know :) - or has to for warmth, but do not use the same 'measure' for a women. i.e if it is too hot."

No, no. By "accidental" here, I mean it's alternative definiition: "nonessential, incidental." I.e., the conscientious man ONLY wears a hat when he absolutely has to. No, my friend, God doesn't require any less obedience from men than he does from women.

You wrote before this:
"Now this is where you have to decide does it mean all the time or just in corporate gatherings. If it is all the time, it MUST apply to both man and woman."

The apostle's headcovering tradition applies all the time. It applies to both men and women, whenever they pray or prophesy.

You wrote:
"So if it is a big deal, please answer the question - Should a man always be without a covering on his head (save a situation he cannot avoid)? What about protection from the sun or safety helmet?"

Out of respect for His Saviour, he should avoid covering his head, unless there is some necessity, like needing to protect his life or his health.

Does this make sense to you, dear Brother?

You conclude:
"Is Verse 5 a bigger deal than verse 4?"

No, both verses are of equal validity and importance.

Be well,
Doug

sermonindex Oct 13, 2011


Hi brother Doug, you write......

"I sense that you know this to be true, my dear Brother."

Well brother, your senses are slightly off today :) I guess its better to just stick to what we each write that way there would be less confusion, on that I am sure you would agree. I believe that my dear brother is caught up in this and believes that this outward sign is an inward sign of holiness. I have stated before, and I will state again, I do believe ( and hopefully this answers Lysa's question) that when a woman prays or prophesies in the church, her head should be covered. I have heard others argue that the hair is the covering or that it was an effort not to needlessly cause controversy because of that culture and the need to reach that culture, much like circumcising Timothy, and I believe that has some merit, yet I personally still come down to a lady covering her head in gathering where she would stand up and pray or prophesy, and I can accept your definition of prophesy for this discussion.

What I object to, and have witnessed, is the dangers of self-righteousness and how it typically rears its head on matters of externals. I am interested in not only someone doing as they are commanded, but I am interested in why they do what they do, the motivations of their hearts, which of course, ultimately, only God can know.

Let me use an exaggeration to try and prove the point. I live in Kansas, and on most highways the law says you cannot drive faster than 65 miles an hour, and if you do, you will be fined a certain amount. Okay, lets say the punishment is death for speeding ( because a small fine does not seem to put many people off speeding:) Now, I guarantee you that speeding would almost certainly all but disappear overnight. Why are people not speeding? Because they do not want to die I imagine. They are law-keepers because of the consequences of breaking that law. Question, are they law keepers in their hearts? Are they secret speeders? What did Jesus say to the Pharisees? Did He commend their hearts? They were law keepers. Yet, Jesus knew their hearts and tells the men who proudly proclaim that they have never committed adultery that He knows their hearts and that they have committed adultery in their hears therefore they are hypocrites. Why are they hypocrites? Because they announce their righteousness by pointing to their outward appearance and yet, God has considered the inside of the cup, God is more interested in why you do something that what you do ( which is why so much of our " works will be burned up when we stand before Him and many more will be cast out despite their works for He never " knew" them)

And so a major sign for me that hypocrisy is lurking here, is that there is no consistency among those who claim that it is there in Scripture so it must be obeyed despite what we thing( I actually agree with that) If a man thinks a woman should cover her head at all times, he must, and I repeat, must have his head uncovered at all times if he is to be consistent. I am sorry brother but your own explanation about accidents and making exceptions for weather and so on is just slightly strange :) And the same must also allow the sisters to stand and pray publicly and prophesy if he is to be consistent in his reasoning and his conviction ( whether he is right or wrong)

Finally, you write..........

"My Brother, your argument to discredit the writer's argument from antiquity does not follow, for your proof is incorrect. The dogma of Transubstantiation was only promulgated by Rome in 1215 A.D. by the Fourth Lateran Council. It was a rather late invention of the Roman Church (no longer truly Catholic at this point), with not only no basis whatsoever in Scripture, but no true basis in the early ante-nicene Church either."

Dear brother, In my opinion, I think your answer lacks the fundamental knowledge that before the fourth lantern council, this was widely practiced and had become tradition, which to the Catholic holds the same validity as Scriptures. Dogmas were introduced only after hundreds, if not more, years of tradition. The matter of infallibility of the Pope is a good example of this. I enjoy our discussions brother, iron sharpening iron, may the Lord bless you Doug............brother Frank

G
ginnyrose Oct 13, 2011

I was thinking along these lines all morning and then I came here and see that there is this article on men covering their heads. Talk about the Holy Spirit inspiring people! Awesome!

What made me think a lot more about it is the question Questor asked on the other thread about men covering their heads - this is what generated questions in my mind, so here goes...

It seems as though in our community whenever you have a public meeting like at a farm meeting/supper, college graduation or whatever there is prayer. Always, whenever prayer is about to be said the men will reach up and remove their hats. Every time. This even happened at our son Jonathan's graduation exercises at Mississippi State University where there were several hundred grads participating. But not one of the female students removed her cap!

Males naturally remove their caps/hats when public prayer is about to said. But, I wonder, do they know why they do it? Is it just a natural thing to do? Is it instinct? On the other hand, I have seen pic of a street preacher who wears a hat and in my spirit it does not sit well...

Do males realize the power that is on their uncovered heads when praying or prophesying?

I wonder, if they give no credibility to the covered/uncovered principle does this weaken their authority?

When I was in a situation where I had to minister to a male and the Holy Spirit told me that since I had the symbol of authority on my head and that I am to use it, does this follow as well for males who understand this principle and act on it, like I did?

Questions, and more questions, I admit....

D
dietolive Oct 13, 2011

Hi Brother, and thanks for taking the time to respond.

First, I want to apologize for assuming. I guess we don't see Brother Greg's ministry the same way.

Also, I understand there is a danger in focusing on externals. Understand too though, that there is also a danger on focusing on "internals", when Jesus said "you will know them by the their fruit." Fruit as you, is not only "the fruit of the Spirit", but also "the obedience of faith." We ought to meet in the middle on this one, and just agree that BOTH extremes should be objected to, brother Frank.

Also, I have been VERY consistent. Please re-read what I have written: I have never argued that women MUST wear the headcovering "all the time." You have erecting a straw man here, my friend. You then call my reasoning "strange", and I would agree that this is literally true, if you've never seen the argument that I have been very carefully presenting here.

Regarding women speaking in the Church: Paul literally says "no." Taken together with His requirement for women to pray and prophesy covered, that would logically mean, (deductively), that women do their praying and prophesying during the 165 other hours out of the 168 total hours that are in a week. Of course, we are all free, for now, to come up with some other interpretation of the literal texts here, if we feel this is still too restrictive.

Finally, regarding tradition and dogma, Christians, such as they were, were not forced to accept Transubstantiation until 1215. I understand that many did accept it before, but your argument here misses the point in either case. The original article that Brother Greg posted said that the headcovering was practiced from the earliest times up to the 19th century. Transubstantiation was not.

Yes, iron does sharpen iron. It also creates heat. My dear Brother: I am no hypocrite, and I never implied that you were anything other than genuine either. I pray there is no offense created from my writing these things to you.

Be well my Brother,
Doug

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