Looking for counsel from the Body of Christ

All,I have been a member for a few years now and have greatly been blessed by the words of encouragement and scriptures that have been posted on this site. I created a new nickname so that others won't know what situation I am about to discuss.My family (wife and two younger children) attend a church and are actively involved such as leading worship, youth leaders, preaching, etc. My wife was raised in this church and I have been attending for 15 years now. We were both married in this church and it has become a "home" to us.Here is where the problem is...the church use to be a place where conviction came during annointed preaching, God's presence came during worship, many families were involved in the church and the vision of the church was to reach to the local community and the world for Christ.During the last 10 years the Lord's presence has seemed to be non-existent, altar calls are rare and there seems to be no conviction when the sermons are preached. Worship is a very "dry" time and we (my wife and I)long to sense his presence again in our church. I believe we have an understanding of why God has seemingly removed his presence from our midst. Our Pastor and Senior Pastor will not speak with each other (it has gotten so bad that they won't even use the same bathroom!). Our senior Pastor is telling individuals within the church that the other Pastor is in rebellion and is no longer to be addressed as a Pastor. This has never been said over the pulpit and the other Pastor is still on staff and receiving all of the Pastoral benefits.Our senior Pastor does not have the authority to remove the other Pastor because the person in charge of the fellowship will not allow him to. (Basically he has give control of the local church over to his "spiritual father" which is president of our fellowship.) When we've discussed this with our senior Pastor his advise is to pray that the God will remove the other Pastor from the church. We don't really have elders in the church now (sadly, they all left) and now we have some individuals who just vote on items and are not really privy to what is happening in the local church.My wife and I take where we go to church very seriously and will be viewed as rebellious should we choose to leave. Our concern is mainly for our children who have not really been affected by the presence of the Lord like we were in times past. We believe it is essential for our kids to know now at a young age that God is real, he desires that we become more like Him, and just as He gave his life for us we should give ours for Him. We are teaching these things at home, but attending church 3 times a week without any childrens service is making us wonder what the children are getting out of this (other than seeing the Dad and Mom faithfully attending church).Both my wife and I are greatly burdened by this situation and we've asked some of our friends for counsel regarding this matter. My reason for writing is not to put-down the church (afterall Christ died for it) but to ask you all to provide any counsel that you may have regarding this situation. I will not give away details of where this church is located or any of the particulars regarding the fellowship because my intention is not to hurt others but see what counsel someone may be able to provide for us. The Bible makes in clear that "in the multitude of counselors there is much wisdom" and I respect many of you here in this forum and know that you seek the Lord before you answer many of these posts.Please hear my heart when I say I am not out to expose anything but rather to look after the spiritual needs of my family. We have prayerfully considered looking for another church but know it will not be easy to leave this one if that is what He is calling us to do.Thanks for taking time to read this, and I ask to pray if God leads you that He will give me direction leading my house in His ways.SeekingHim

Hi SeekingHimYour request moves me deeply. I think your request for counsel is a right move. Unity amongst the brethren, and particularly those in pastoral care is not an optional extra, but a vital necessity for God’s blessing. You will be familiar with Ps 133 and its portrayal of unity. It is like the dew of Hermon and the priestly anointing oil. The dew of Hermon was a necessary part of Israel’s farming year and without it there could be no proper sowing or expectation of harvest. The priestly anointing oil was an absolute necessity for the priesthood to function and to enable God’s presence among His people. Without unity there could be no harvest, and without unity their could be no manifest presence of God. Your posting describes a 21st century equivalent of this psalm.I really appreciate your faithfulness in wanting to be loyal to your home church, and your longings for your children, not just to go to church, but to be in the presence of God. In the present circumstances, other than a sovereign move of God’s Spirit, there can be no expectation of blessing in your home church. The dryness you speak of it due to the absence of Hermon’s dew.I can’t quite follow the pattern of authority in the church. Is the one you call a ‘spiritual father’ a part of the membership of the church? Does he have genuine spiritual responsibility for the church, or is this a management structure? Can you talk to him? Your roles within the church ought to give you some access to this man and I would advise you to seek his counsel too, if he is a genuine part of the spiritual body of the church rather than a denomination manager.I am anxious for your children. This is not ‘church’ and you may do them a disservice by letting them think it is. I think you may have to put your loyalty to them and their future above your loyalty to your ‘home church’ and its past. I appreciate too your discretion; I think this is honouring to the Lord and His people. If it is at all possible I would always recommend that you ‘join somewhere’ rather than ‘leave somewhere’. In other words you should have some sense of being drawn to a company of God’s people rather than just an overriding sense of being driven from the current situation. Have you visited other companies of God’s people? Did you find He had prepared some sustenance for you there? Did you hear His voice, not just in proficient sermons, but in personal application of truth to your heart? These gentle drawings can often be God’s ‘clues’.As God enables we will pray. Please keep us in the picture.

Thank you for your willingness to seek counsel, Brother, that requires a humility beyond many. I'm not qualified to give it, but I agree with Bros. Greg and Ron, and I will remember you, your family, and your church in my prayers.One thing that comes to mind (not counsel, just an observation) is that I'm wondering if the matter between your Senior Pastor and the other Pastor is being sorted out according to the Lord's commands in Matthew 18:15-17; presumably there were private discussions, then the involvement of a few others in the church (the Elders, for instance), and since then the Senior Pastor has voiced to others his disapproval of the other Pastor, but has he taken the next step? "And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church:"?The theme of discretion, which you have well honored, is partly to minimize the damage to the reputation of the one with which there is a problem, so that his life isn't messed up even when he repents. But if true hard-hearted rebellion is present, and resists private confrontation and such from a few more, the matter needs to be taken before the church, because its health is more important than the rebel's reputation, and he needs to make his choice out in the open of whether he will repent and remain among them, or whether he will follow his course to its end and leave the body of Christ. The consequences of "halting between two opinions," as it were, are grievous.But the handling of that issue is not your responsibility (you might even lack the information necessary to make a wise decision there). Your responsibility, as Bro. Ron mentioned, is more centered around your family and (particularly) your children.Grace and peace to you, from God our Father, and Christ Jesus our Lord,-Keith

I can’t quite follow the pattern of authority in the church. Is the one you call a ‘spiritual father’ a part of the membership of the church? Does he have genuine spiritual responsibility for the church, or is this a management structure? Can you talk to him? Your roles within the church ought to give you some access to this man and I would advise you to seek his counsel too, if he is a genuine part of the spiritual body of the church rather than a denomination manager.The head of the fellowship is the person I am referring to as our Pastor's "spiritual father". He has oversight over all of the churches in the fellowship and resides in another state. He has only visited our church maybe 3 times in the past 5-7 years and probably would not be able to put my face to a name if he saw me again (last time we met he didn't know I was married with children). So needless to say he is neither accessible nor probably cares too much regarding what I'd have to say. Even though he is so disconnected from our local church our Pastor has submitted care of the church to him and allows him to make decisions regarding leadership changes, financial decisions, etc.Thank you all for your replies, scriptures, and words of wisdom. As someone PM'd me and said, my concern is that of my family and not trying to iron out the problems in the church. I agree that this is not the way that Jesus said to handle disputes with your brother and as a result God is no longer honoring this church with his precious presence. It is difficult to even get out and visit another church because we are expected to be at every service and if we are not we hear about it. For us even to begin seeking another church would basically mean that we would cut ties with this one.As stated I'm not opposed to that for the sake of my family but I want to make sure that I seek counsel from Godly men and seek God's face and hear from him prior to me making a move that will affect my family for years to come. Again, your posts have already been a major encouragement to my wife and I and we eagerly await to see what God will speak.

SeekinghimSometime some of these things are beyond us…we have no access to the hearts of men, but the divine potter can do greater things than we can. It is difficult for us to see what we are actually battling against, and we ought to pity our brother who under darkness in some aspects of their conduct. It is so easy to fall into the trap of not praying for our brothers because of their backslidden state, but we are told to still love them as we love our own flesh. If God has revealed to you a problem, it is your responsibility to pray upon it with ceasing. It may take a long time before you see results but you must not faint on this issue if you have a strong conviction and feel a burden to pray for it.Luke18:1 And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, AND NOT FAINT. Pray for your pastors and pray against the enemy who has bound them until you see results. God will hear and act…Luke18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, SHALL HE FIND SUCH FAITH ON EARTH?Faith, which, is, see in not faith at all. You may not see what God is doing but he works through your prayers and he will provide better counsel for you than any of us can.James

Hi Brother,Totally unqualified to offer anything but an observation. But I can pray and will.This really stood out:It is difficult to even get out and visit another church because we are expected to be at every service and if we are not we hear about it.That just seems to add to the situation. Certainly because of your longevity it sounds as if this is being taken for granted, but it's still not right. I am sorry to hear these things truly, it has got to be extremely difficult for you and your wife.The obvious is to do Gods will first and foremostand think the counsel offered from our seasoned brothers is sound. But from all that you have described the sense runs along side Ron's comments;I am anxious for your children. This is not ‘church’ and you may do them a disservice by letting them think it is. I think you may have to put your loyalty to them and their future above your loyalty to your ‘home church’ and its pastandIf it is at all possible I would always recommend that you ‘join somewhere’ rather than ‘leave somewhere’. In other words you should have some sense of being drawn to a company of God’s people rather than just an overriding sense of being driven from the current situation. Have you visited other companies of God’s people? Did you find He had prepared some sustenance for you there? Did you hear His voice, not just in proficient sermons, but in personal application of truth to your heart? These gentle drawings can often be God’s ‘clues’.Being that this seems to be not the case from what you stated, am wondering if the opposite isn't true.That the Lord give you wisdom, and He will. James 1:5,6

Dear God, Lord Jesus Christ, please hear our prayers. Please help this person and family see and know Your will in this situation and help them obey You in what You speak to their heart, even if it is not popular. Help SeekingHim and his family to do Your will, Let us be like our "underground" brothers and sisters if needbe, doing Jesus' commands even with perhaps ungodly church and worldly leadership. Help us seek to obey the Father and please the Father more than ourselves and man. Help SeekingHim's family and children know You more than church services, to know, love and obey Jesus Christ is to be the church body. Help the children know the Spirit even if church leadership is not following You and Your ways, which You yourself warned us about in the Gospels. Thank you Lord Jesus Christ for the Holy Spirit, and thank you for Your help and Your Bible. In Christ Jesus' name I pray, not my will be done, but the Father in heaven, Amen.

After reading all the fine counsil and solid bible based direction posted I just want to encourage you brother to hang in there. I've been there but don't need to elaborate. I do want to comment on only one thing. Your home and you as Priest of your home can have the quality of the presence of Jesus Christ in your house as you might expect at a church setting.(I suspect it's there already) Blessed are thoughs who hunger and thirst after righteousness,ect....they shall be filled.Your children can learn and should learn about the very presence of God at home first, which I'm assured of by the Lord they do.So take courage and honor Jesus'- God- in all you say and do. The eyes of the Lord go to and fro in all the earth seeking thoughs who's hearts are fully his that He may strongly support them.