Quiverfall

Not long ago I came across a story of a woman who was living in a Quiverfall group. I never heard of this until this interview. It deals with families having as many kids as God allows them to have. There is a verse from the Psalms that deals with this. THe groups seem to use it as their cornerstone and it seems to be mostly in the midwest.

I follow the lady on twitter because this whole thing is just so intriguing to me. She recently posted a link on twitter that caught my eye because parts of it are things I have seen in Christendom and I have wondered how really accurate is it? Is it biblical? It is more cultural yet it is being taught as bibical.

Here is the link. Read at your convenience and tell me what your thoughts are.

http://nolongerquivering.com/2010/08/03/quiverfull-daughters-the-making-of-a-helpmeet/

I think you mean Quiverfull.

I follow that site, too.

It talks a lot about spiritual abuse in Christianity.

Their aim is to preach the truth and let the light dispel the darkness while ministering wholeness to those who have been abused spiritually. I am impressed that they are not operating from a root of bitterness.

Very needed for our day as almost all Christians have been touched by spiritual abuse which is basically misrepresenting the truth in order to take advantage of someone in one way or another for your own personal gain. It deals mostly with women.

It is good to read this so you don't get the wrong idea about where they are coming from.

http://nolongerquivering.com/what-is-quiverfull/

In Christ,
Sarah

Yes, I meant quiverfull. I Realized I spelled it wrong but I can't go back and edit it-woops.

Quiverfull seems to be something that advocates familes having lots of kids because this is what God has ordained. I think that is skewed.

One of the reasons this thing caught my interest is because of the class in 'women's studies' I am in. The catch is to sort through it all to find out what is wrong and what is right and why and why some women are being abused through it and what the church should learn as a result. Don't you think?

"Quiverfull seems to be something that advocates familes having lots of kids because this is what God has ordained"

I am one that would be considered to have raised my family in the "Quiverfull movement", but the very term movement gets my dander up. ANY basis for the raising of my children came from a Biblical conviction. Any "movement" in history, or any denomination across church history no doubt started because of beliefs. Yes - many are filled with abuse and a twisting of God's truth. After all, doesn't satan come as an angel of light? I get very angry at this "anti-quiverfull" movement that has now arisen because they are missing all of the Biblical TRUTHS and convictions that have come out of a heartfelt desire of MANY FAMILIES to raise children "counter-culturally". Admittedly, some have gone too far. But you don't throw away the Bible because of it. I don't like to put myself out here like this on this forum because I do not have the emotional energy for the debate that most often comes. But this topic really rankles me, and I feel a need to correct misconceptions regarding it.

Regarding your quote - the idea is NOT "having large families". There is a subtle difference that many people who are on the outside and just observing often miss - the idea is that we give God control over every area of our lives. And that when God says "Be fruitful and multiply" (yes, Old Testament), we give Him control in that area as well. In my case, my husband and I said, "Lord we are willing to have as many children as You would have for us"....

mama27

your last sentence, 'Lord we are willing to have as many children as You would have for us....' How practical is that? Do you have kids until both of you agree that is enough? OR until you hear God say ENOUGH? Or until you encounter some female complications? When does it become enough?

Over here on the shelf it seems like this is taken out of context-the be fruitful and multiply context.

I understand how 'movement' rankles you- always a buzz word.

I registered for the site just to respond to this thread. I am a mother of 9 children. I never heard of the quiverfull "movement" until today. In fact, I have yet to meet NAYONE who agrees with me on this. Yet, God spoke into my Spirit (NOT my husband's although he supported me) many years ago many of the things that I read are advocated by the "movement."
Specifically, I had three children and began to take birth control to prevent more pregnancies. I heard the LORD say to me: "Are there any blessings from me that you would want to stop?" I answered of course not. Then I felt the LORD say to me: "Then why do you want to stop having children since they are a blessing from Me?" (Psalm 127 is just one example. This may be Old Testament, but I would think the spirit of the New Testament supports it.)

I became immediately convicted and stopped taking birth control. Thanks to God my husband supported my decision. Although I did take natural methods not to become pregnant, I understood that it was in the LORD's hands and in His sovereignty whether I would have any more children. In other words, I surrendered MY will to HIS will. Is that not what Christ calls us to in EVERY area of out lives?

Someone asked this is practical. Following Christ in any form is NOT practical. We trust God to provide for us in every other thing. Why should this be any different? God has always provided.

To note, I don't agree with the website's description of raising girls only to be a wife and serve a husband. This is highly unscriptural. Girls, just like boys, should be raise
d to serve and follow Christ ONLY. If this is done properly, they will become a good wife or husband IF that is what God calls them to.

I specifically de-emphasize to my children the cultural obsession with marriage and relationships. The only relationship that matters is the one with Christ. We teach them, as did the apostle Paul, that it is better to remain unmarried so as to be able to serve the LORD fully. That should be their focus UNLESS Christ calls them to marriage. The example of Brother Gordon is perfect here, if you have read his testimony.

I also do not advocate the type of corporal punishment described.

My daughters attend college and prepare themselves as the LORD will have. I could add, as to the matter of being "practical" that I have attended law school to and successfully graduated, by the grace of God, even with my 9 children because I felt that is what the LORD called me to do. He is not always "practical" as we see things. But he is always right.

Since when does God live in the realm of "practical"?? His ways are infinitely higher and deeper than ours. (Isa 55:8,9)

God could have chosen for us to have one child, and that would have been His perfect plan. In my case we prayed and waited through 8 years of marriage before our first child was born. And I had 3 miscarriages after our last child was born. We had given the matter to the Lord. CLEARLY our family size, AND EACH INDIVIDUAL LIFE (He brought us 7) was totally in His control. I could not control the starting of having children, and I could not keep them coming when my time was finished.

This is sort of like the headcovering issue that is being and has been discussed....God convicts and impresses each individual. Maybe to those on the outside looking in to this "movement", God hasn't given that conviction. Just PLEASE don't lump everyone together with all the stories you read of things "gone wrong"....

This is a Quote by Doug Phillips
"The Bible calls debt a curse and children a blessing; but in our culture, we apply for a curse and reject blessings. Something is wrong with this picture."

QUOTE:
"God convicts and impresses each individual."

I have not followed the site posted but am familiar with the mindset of the quiverfull philosophy - it did not begin with a formal organization. The idea is that one should have as many children as physically possible, believing that conception is in God's control because after all, the OT patriarchs had large families.

This idea is seriously flawed. Is it God's will for singles to get pregnant? NO! Never has and never will be. I have had many single clients tell me it must God's will they are pregnant because they are! Hey! have you never heard of the biological reasons how a body conceives???!!! Ok, this is for singles. Now what about marrieds?

Any married couple will be faced with this issue, given all the methods available to limit your family size. Some opt for however many physically possible, others know their limitations and will work with it. In our case, before we married, we talked about family size and did pray about it. Even in it, God did rule and surprise us with two surprise conceptions and three planned pregnancies. Would you know that in time I did forget which ones were planned and which ones were a surprise? :-)

When #5 was in the oven I seriously considered whether this should be our last one since this was the number we had striven for. Then one day in church service as I was thumbing through Genesis my eyes fell on 3:16: "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." I saw something I never noticed before: the ability to conceive frequently was a result of the fall! (I will greatly multiply thy conception.) This is given in the context of where Adam was told there would be weeds to be dealt with. Soooo, this means that to see how many children you can have is not God's will, either, because it says that the ability to conceive more frequently is part of the curse placed on a woman.

I did more checking in the WORD to find the highest number of children birthed by any woman. I did find Hannah birthed 6 children. Leah seemed to have birthed 7 children that we have record of. I am not aware of any other woman birthing more then these after the flood.

Now, how many children should a couple have? These numbers teach us something, IMHO.

Husband and wife are called by God to enjoy each other and if a child results, one should resort to the mercy and grace of God to enable them to accept this child as a gift from Him. But to deliberately work to see how many you can have - this seems to me a point of pride and others looking on have observed this as well. But then that is between them and God - you do not want to go a child and tell them you think they were conceived as a result of pride!

My take on the quiverfull philosophy...

ginnyrose

WOW, I am impressed and astounded at the last few comments after my previous one. I am taking it all in as I read them. I have my own ideas about the whole thing but listening to you ladies on this and even ginnyrose makes for what I consider some powerful reading!!!

Thank you for your input on this!!!!

Hello,

This is a very interesting topic.
I have always pondered the question of having children and family size as I am in a courting relationship and the topic has come up on more than one occasion.I have come to believe that God does call people to marriage specifically. That is part of my own testimony. I did not want to be married for the longest time because I had a wrong idea of what it meant to be "devoted" to the Lord. However God really changed all that and has helped me grow through a godly relationship (you can read about it here http://evangelandevelyn.posterous.com/ )

The thing that I am really struggling with is precisely on the topic of having children and birth control. This has been quite helpful. Thank you all for your postings.

There are so many men and women of God who wee mightily used throughout history who were single, married with children or married without children.

God uses every single possible situation for His glory.

Watchman Nee got married but did not have any kids
William and Catherine Booth were married and had children
Marie Monsen stayed single her whole life and of course the Apostle Paul.

*I had always wondered in Priscilla and Aquilla had children and how they ministered as a couple?

This is another topic I have been pondering...
In what ways do couples minister together?

I know some who work together side my side others in which the male is the foremost minister but the wife supports in a crucial way and still others where the wife is the minister and the husband is not.

There are other forms of birth control aside from taking a pill. Abstinence at key times of the month is partially effective, as are other methods. The reason I say this is to ask a couple of questions. I ask them not to argue, but simply to put the questions out there and see if anyone has considered them.

If the command is to be fruitful and multiply and if a couple abstains for a week or two during a particular time of the month, have they sinned in not allowing God to make the decision about their child?

Does this mean that a couple is bound by scripture to come together during these key times?

Is it possible that God placed within each man and woman the ability to reproduce and decreed, "now go and be fruitful", leaving it up to the natural processes that He built into the man and woman to bring about offspring?

I am NOT implying by the last question that each person is not unique nor that God does not cause each man to be a unique spiritual being. I am asking if it is possible given the previous comment and questions that it is up to us to be fruitful and that we can simply listen to the leading of the Holy Spirit as to when we should start and stop bearing children?

I have never heard of the quiverfull movement. I have just had friends who felt they ought to have as many children as would naturally occur if they did nothing to inhibit the process.

QUOTE:
"There are other forms of birth control aside from taking a pill"

I will share my take on this issue as discretely as possible.

The pill functions as an abortifactant. It does not prevent conception (edited) but prevents the implantation of the fertilized ovum into the uterine wall, or at least it used to. There are other methods of contraception that work this way as well.

I am not convinced that using the pill or its cousins is not without risks, even though the birth control industry says it is safe. I do not believe it is healthy to fool around with nature like this - the women know what I am talking about.

I would recommend for any who are seriously interested in this topic to check out "Natural family planning". You can google this term and find the info you need on the web.

'Nuff said....

ginnyrose

When I was set free by Jesus Christ, I was set free from dogmas.

There are those who think their spirituality increases as their family increases and yet this is not how personal spirituality increases. If they think that, then the implication is that those who don't have x number of children or none at all are then, not blessed by the Lord. This is very Old Testament thinking. To the Christian, outward circmstances or "props" are no measure of spirituality.

Is God practical? Of course He is. Look at the world around you. Look at your own body. He gave you natural means to practice family planning.

There are many dogmas that have been created, from wearing certain clothing to having x number of children.

Be led by the Holy Spirit in conjuction with your spouse and stay free in Jesus.

In Christ,
Sarah

"When I was set free by Jesus Christ, I was set free from dogmas.

There are those who think their spirituality increases as their family increases and yet this is not how personal spirituality increases. If they think that, then the implication is that those who don't have x number of children or none at all are then, not blessed by the Lord. This is very Old Testament thinking. To the Christian, outward circmstances or "props" are no measure of spirituality.

Is God practical? Of course He is. Look at the world around you. Look at your own body. He gave you natural means to practice family planning.

There are many dogmas that have been created, from wearing certain clothing to having x number of children. "

WOW- set free from dogmas. THat can be a blessing and a curse yet your words here strike at the heart of the issue, for me.
Natural family planning? I would agree, everything to not sleeping next to each other, as in the older days, which really doesn't happen anymore. Also, knowing that window of when a woman is able to get pregnant during that period of the month. My month knows this, hence we do not have kids. I actually learned about this through her. Never was taught this anywhere.

Last paragraph leads me to shout AMEN and that doesn't happen very often for me. It reminds of of independent baptist churches who tend to frown on ladies who wear pants and don't wear long hair as if they are less christians. I know of some churchs here like this.

This question then remains for me is this. with all of this thinking and what I call man made dogmas what is it to be christian in the end anyway? Now we see why the Pharisee became as they were and why many in the secular world see religion as messed up.

Most families today have some prodigals within their ranks. But I do know of a few that don't. These families I really admire and wonder what they did different from other parents. Perhaps the family I admire the most has six boys, no girls. All are faithful serving the LORD, active in their church and church conference. Four of them are married with very nice families. I do know the mother is a very spiritual lady as is her husband.

If you are going to have a very large family there is one point the husband has to consider: how would his wife cope should something happen to him? This is not a hypothetical question, I am serious. Husbands and wives do die in the prime of life, leaving the spouse to cope. And some do not cope well at all. Seems to me not very many consider this question seriously.

QUOTE:
"**As a side note: several of the huge families we know are heavily dependent on welfare, food stamps and medicare (whatever the insurance is)... and I do very MUCH have an issue with that. Those things were intended to help people while they are going thru hard times, not to support families that keep having more and more children. If it's God's will for you to have 15 kids then you better also trust Him to provide for you! Your husband better work his tail off (at 3 jobs if necessary) providing for you and the kids. If he works like that perhaps your child bearing would slow down... lol... **

AMEN! But, I also LOL!

"I think scripture is quite clear on matters like this where there is no clear command one way or the other... the second half of Romans 14:5 "Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind."

The parents with 12 kids, fully convinced that that is what the Lord wants for them, need not judge the family with 1 child. And the family who can not comprehend having a dozen children and stopped at 1 need not judge the bigger family.

The number of children does not make a parent more spiritual or less spiritual.

Each couple need to seek the Lord in matters like this.

**As a side note: several of the huge families we know are heavily dependent on welfare, food stamps and medicare (whatever the insurance is)... and I do very MUCH have an issue with that. Those things were intended to help people while they are going thru hard times, not to support families that keep having more and more children. If it's God's will for you to have 15 kids then you better also trust Him to provide for you! Your husband better work his tail off (at 3 jobs if necessary) providing for you and the kids. If he works like that perhaps your child bearing would slow down... lol... **

Krispy"

One thing I would have to ask is when a couple has , say 10 kids or more, and mom is still able to have kids are those couple waiting upon 'God' to tell them to stop? What is their sign? This is what puzzles me even after reading articles about those who have come out of this quiverfull thing.

Your last paragraph tackles the practicalness of this all. It is my thinking that if all of this ordained of God would the circumstances not cause the families to be self sufficient somehow? Instead, as you said KK they are reliant on food stamps and so forth which doesn't seem to be bring glory to God. Yet, I know some christians will say children are a blessing from God despite circumstances-yet is that really reality? Is my thinking twisted in this? Is it Godly minded to think like that?

One last comment/question on my post here. What percentage of christian couple have this belief? I have never heard of this "mentality" before and I think the average person, christian-nonchristian would be wowed at those who have lots of kids but then looked down upon if those same families had to reach out for food stamps and welfare because they cannot afford the household though God inspired them to have many kids. It doesn't seem practical that this is glorifying God. Help my unbelief in this area because I just shake my head on it.