The blessing of cal vs arm!

Many as I myself have been very discouraged and frustrated by the many opposite "sides" in christianity, as for example calvanism vs armenianism or eternal security vs holiness doctrines or any other "vs" you can think of.

But it dawned on me that if God almight where not so active in saving souls, he would not have bothered in teaching us all of his truths that are to be found and awed by in his word.

Imagine for a moment that John Wesley and George Withfield where both have clinched to the same doctrine, what would have happened?

If Wesley would have embraced withfields doctrine or vice versa?

then only half of the souls would have meet God in true salvation!

I do not know the true procentage of every soul converted, but i do know booth withfield and wesley had revelations of Gods truth in the word of God, and if the separation in doctrine did not occur then only "half" of believers would have meet the truth, or whatever what % did embrace wesley or withfield in those days and their believers to follow through the ages....

So when God "separates" two camps, two brothers by an interpretation in scripture, it need not be a "apostate" belief nor a "heresy" it may be both truths be valid as Gods truth and the result of the division be that the Kingdom of God be doubled!

yet we are so bound to debate and discuss the small things! if we yet could rejoice in gods ways of saving souls!

God saves the calvinist and the arminian!

ohh the wisdom of God to separate the Calvinist and the anabaptist!

the kingdom of God be doubled thereby! the amount of souls that would enjoy Jesus for all of eternity doubled!

and yet we continue to speak on who is wright or wrong while the kingdom of God continues to fill with sols that has accepted The son of gods free gift to all of us!

Praise be to God!

i will end this revelation by a song by Isaac Waats

Salvation is for ever nigh
The souls that fear and trust the Lord
And grace descending from on high
Fresh hopes of glory shall afford.

Mercy and truth on earth are met
Since Christ the Lord came down from Heav’n;
By His obedience so complete,
Justice is pleased, and peace is giv’n.

Now truth and honor shall abound,
Religion dwell on earth again,
And heav’nly influence bless the ground
In our Redeemer’s gentle reign.

His righteousness is gone before
To give us free access to God;
Our wand’ring feet shall stray no more,
But mark His steps and keep the road

yea thats interesting

both sides hold truth ,even tho truth seems to contradict , it doesnt

in the book of acts ...the soverny of gods work and promise ,and the resonsablity of man actions are blended together , in one chapter ,,,,when paul was on the boat befor he was ship wrecked and got a word from god ,that promised that no one would be losted,but they were told by god ,that they still must stay in the boat

ill post the scripture later

I think truth is wider then what the human eye can comprehend. anyone that would openly deny that whitfield had truth or true converts or wesley, are in truth in some sort of denial, I do not consent to all that withfield taught or wesley for that matter, yet i do accept they both had revelations of God i pray i would catch a glimpse of and if i accomplished by Gods grace 1% of the imprint they made in history by their lifework my life would not been in vain. Yet by looking at the controversy and the opposition of their teachings superficially it is easy to get caught up in the discussion of "right and wrong" interpretation, but when ploughing deeper and seeing what God did by his sovereignty by accepting the diversity we see millions of souls added to HIS kingdom... who are we to continue to argue what truth is more precious or more close to earn us a closer understanding of gods truth?

amen

more then i comprhend thats for sure

i love both of those those saints

and like you,i dont agree with eveything they taught

i fell like im repeating my selfs ,becasue iv mentioned this a lot in the last few weeks

but what weasly said at whitfields funaral was lovely

and i pray ,that all the saint endevour to think as weasly did about his calvinist brothers,and vica verser

Wesley to Whitefield, "Your God is my devil."

Their time is over!

Ours is not!

We have to do with that which is done under the sun!

Let us watch and pray and contend for the faith!

"Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun." Ecc. 9:6

"What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done, and there is nothing new under the sun." Ecc. 1:9

you could say savannah,,that what you posted was when weasly was young and stupid

heres what weasly said about whitfield when he was older

And, first, let us keep close to the grand scriptural doctrines which he everywhere delivered. There are many doctrines of a less essential nature, with regard to which even the sincere children of God (such is the present weakness of human understanding) are and have been divided for many ages. In these we may think and let think; we may "agree to disagree." But, meantime, let us hold fast the essentials of "the faith which was once delivered to the saints;" and which this champion of God so strongly insisted on, at all times, and in all places!

2. His fundamental point was, "Give God all the glory of whatever is good in man;" and, "In the business of salvation, set Christ as high and man as low as possible." With this point, he and his friends at Oxford, the original Methodists, so called, set out. Their grand principle was, there is no power (by nature) and no merit in man. They insisted, all power to think, speak, or act aright, is in and from the Spirit of Christ; and all merit is (not in man, how high soever in grace, but merely) in the blood of Christ. So he and they taught: there is no power in man, till it is given him from above, to do one good work, to speak one good word, or to form one good desire. For it is not enough to say, all men are sick of sin: no, we are all "dead in trespasses and sins." It follows, that all the children of men are, "by nature, children of wrath." We are all "guilty before God," liable to death temporal and eternal.

3. And we are all helpless, both with regard to the power and to the guilt of sin. "For who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean?" None less than the Almighty. Who can raise those that are dead, spiritually dead in sin? None but He who raised us from the dust of the earth. But on what consideration will He do this? "Not for works of righteousness that we have done." "The dead cannot praise Thee, O Lord;" nor do anything for the sake of which they should be raised to life. Whatever, therefore, God does, He does it merely for the sake of His well-beloved Son: "He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities." He Himself "bore" all "our sins in His own body upon the tree." He "was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification." Here then is the sole meritorious cause of every blessing we do or can enjoy; in particular of our pardon and acceptance with God, of our full and free justification. But by what means do we become interested in what Christ has done and suffered? "Not by works, lest any man should boast;" but by faith alone. "We conclude," says the Apostle, "that a man is justified by faith, without the works of the law." And "to as many as" thus "receive Him, giveth He power to become the sons of God, even to those that believe in His name; who are born, not of the will of man, but of God."

4. And "except a man be" thus "born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." But all who are thus "born of the Spirit" have "the kingdom of God within them." Christ sets up His kingdom in their hearts; "righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost." That "mind is in them, which was in Christ Jesus," enabling them to "walk as Christ also walked." His indwelling Spirit makes them both holy in heart, and "holy in all manner of conversation." But still, seeing all this is a free gift, through the righteousness and blood of Christ, there is eternally the same reason to remember, "He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord."

5. You are not ignorant that these are the fundamental doctrines which he everywhere insisted on. And may they not be summed up, as it were, in two words, -- the new birth, and justification by faith? These let us insist upon with all boldness, at all times, and in all places; -- in public (those of us who are called thereto), and at all opportunities in private. Keep close to these good, old, unfashionable doctrines, how many soever contradict and blaspheme. Go on, my brethren, in the "name of the Lord, and in the power of His might." With all care and diligence, "keep that safe which is committed to your trust;" knowing that "heaven and earth shall pass away, but this truth shall not pass away."

6. But will it be sufficient to keep close to his doctrines, how pure soever they are? Is there not a point of still greater importance than this, namely, to drink into his spirit? -- herein to be a follower of him, even as he was of Christ? Without this, the purity of our doctrines would only increase our condemnation. This, therefore, is the principal thing -- to copy after his spirit. And allowing that in some points we must be content to admire what we cannot imitate; yet in many others we may, through the same free grace, be partakers of the same blessing. Conscious then of your own wants and of His bounteous love, who "giveth liberally and upbraids not," cry to Him that works all in all for a measure of the same precious faith; of the same zeal and activity; the same tender-heartedness, charitableness, bowels of mercies. Wrestle with God for some degree of the same grateful, friendly, affectionate temper; of the same openness, simplicity, and godly sincerity; "love without dissimulation." Wrestle on, till the power from on high works in you the same steady courage and patience; and above all, because it is the crown of all, the same invariable integrity!

7. Is there any other fruit of the grace of God with which he was eminently endowed, and the want of which among the children of God he frequently and passionately lamented? There is one, that is, catholic love; that sincere and tender affection which is due to all those who, we have reason to believe, are children of God by faith; in other words, all those, in every persuasion, who "fear God and work righteousness." He longed to see all who had "tasted of the good word," of a true catholic spirit; a word little understood, and still less experienced, by many who have it frequently in their mouth. Who is he that answers this character? Who is the man of a catholic spirit? One who loves as friends, as brethren in the Lord, as joint partakers of the present kingdom of heaven, and fellow heirs of His eternal kingdom, all, of whatever opinion, mode of worship, or congregation, who believe in the Lord Jesus; who love God and man; who, rejoicing to please and fearing to offend God, are careful to abstain from evil, and zealous of good works. He is a man of a truly catholic spirit, who bears all these continually upon his heart; who, having an unspeakable tenderness for their persons, and an earnest desire of their welfare, does not cease to commend them to God in prayer, as well as to plead their cause before men; who speaks comfortably to them, and labors, by all his words, to strengthen their hands in God. He assists them to the uttermost of his power, in all things, spiritual and temporal; he is ready to "spend and be spent" for them; yea, "to lay down his life for his brethren."

In "The Church Vindicated from Predestination",Wesley wrote that according to Whitefield's teachings,"the justice of God is no better than the tyranny of Tiberius.God Himself is little better than Moloch. A cruel, unwise, unjust, arbitrary, a self-willed tyrant. A being devoid of wisdom, justice, mercy, holiness, and truth. A devil, yea, worse than the devil."

Wesley also wrote in his treatise on Baptism,published in 1756, "By water, then, as a means—the water of baptism—we are regenerated or born again, whence it is also called by the Apostle the washing of regeneration. Herein a principle of grace is infused which will not be wholly taken away unless we quench the Holy Spirit of God by long-continued wickedness."

Wesley also cast calumny upon Augustus Toplady,author of the hymnn Rock of Ages and defender of the faith, both while he(Toplady)lived and after his(Toplady's) death. Wesley attempted to convince others that Toplady on his deathbed recanted the doctrine regarding predestination in salvation.

We ought not attempt to place a band-aid upon what many who know better realize that this is truly an open sepulchre of which the corruption,rotteness and stench has reached far and wide over many years and must have the finality of the heavy stone of God's immoveable and unbreakable Truth laid upon it.

Rock of Ages
Cleft for me
Let me hide myself in Thee

Don't think I really fit into either camp theologically, but I can definitely get along with anyone that loves Jesus. Here are some good quotes on the subject:

Tozer: “My son, when you get to college you’re going to find that all of the boys will be gathered in a room discussing and arguing over Arminianism and Calvinism night after night after night. I’ll tell you what to do, Cliff. Go to your room and meet God. At the end of four years you’ll be way down the line and they’ll still be where they started, because greater minds than yours have wrestled with this problem and have not come up with satisfactory conclusions. Instead, learn to know God.”

Spurgeon: “I fear I am not a very good Calvinist because I pray that the Lord will save all of the elect and then elect some more.”

Spurgeon: "I have preached here, you know it, invitations as free as those which proceeded from the lips of Master John Wesley. Van Armin himself, the founder of the Arminian school, could not more honestly have pleaded with the very vilest of the vile to come to Jesus than I have done. Have I therefore felt in my mind that there was a contradiction here? No, nothing of the kind"

Whitefield on Wesley: A minister was in company with Mr. Whitefield, and during the interview was very free with reflections on Wesley and his followers. Finally he expressed a doubt concerning Mr. Wesley's salvation, and said to Mr. Whitefield, "Sir, do you think when we get to heaven we shall see John Wesley?" "No sir," replied Whitefield, "I fear not; for he will be so near the eternal Throne, and we shall be at such a distance, we shall hardly get a sight of him."

Wesley preached Whitefield's funeral sermon: http://www.piney.com/WhitefSer54Funeral.html

we can see weasly take a full one 180 in his opinions about the doctrine of whitfield

posting old ,writings of weasly doesnt negate what he believed in the end about his brother whitfled

his complement towards his calvinist brother are greater then iv witnessed with any christan circules that agree on the minore doctrines

whitfield also had a wrong view of weasly for many years ,due to him not fully understanding what weasly taught regarding unaversal redemtion ecct

we shold all try to eat our pride and think like weasly towards the end of his life ,,and even speak highly of other saints for what they have done regardless of weather they fit into our theologal shoe box

and as weasly said at the death of his brother ,,,we should keep close to his doctrines

some amasing words from the weasly to us ,reagrding whitfield ,,and others in this day who except the doctrine of calvinisim

O Thou God of love, how long shall Thy people be a by-word among the Heathen? How long shall they laugh us to scorn, and say, "See how these Christians love one another!" When wilt Thou roll away our reproach? Shall the sword devour for ever? How long will it be ere Thou bid Thy people return from "following each other?" Now, at least, "let all the people stand still, and pursue after their brethren no more!" But what ever others do, let all of us, my brethren, hear the voice of him that, being dead, yet speaks! Suppose ye hear him say, "Now, at least, be ye followers of me as I was of Christ! Let brother "no more lift up sword against brother, neither know ye war any more!" Rather put ye on, as the elect of God, bowels of mercies, humbleness of mild, brotherly kindness, gentleness, long- suffering, forbearing one another in love. Let the time past suffice for strife, envy, contention; for biting and devouring one another. Blessed be God, that ye have not long ago been consumed one of another! From henceforth hold ye the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace."

10. O God, with Thee no word is impossible! Thou does whatsoever please Thee! O that Thou would cause the mantle of Thy prophet, whom Thou hast taken up, now to fall upon us that remain! "Where is the Lord God of Elijah?" Let his spirit rest upon these Thy servants! Show Thou art the God that answers by fire! Let the fire of Thy love fall on every heart! And because we love Thee, let us love one another with a "love stronger than death!" Take away from us "all anger, and wrath, and bitterness; all clamor and evil speaking!" Let Thy Spirit so rest upon us, that from this hour we may be "kind to each other, tender-hearted, forgiving one another, even as God, for Christ's sake hath forgiven us!"

lets esteme others as better then our self a wise saing from paul

weasly said "The character of this truly pious person must be [deeply] impressed on the heart of every friend to vital religion. In spite of a tender [and delicate] constitution, he continued to the last day of his life, preaching with a frequency and fervor that seemed to exceed the natural strength of the most robust. Being called to the exercise of his function at an age when most young men are only beginning to qualify themselves for it, he had not time to make a very considerable progress in the learned languages. But this defect was amply supplied by a lively and fertile genius, by fervent zeal, and by a forcible and most persuasive delivery. And though in the pulpit he often found it needful by "the terrors of the Lord" to "persuade men," he had nothing gloomy in his nature; being singularly cheerful, as well as charitable and tender-hearted. He was as ready to relieve the bodily as the spiritual necessities of those that applied to him. It ought also to be observed, that he constantly enforced upon his audience every moral duty; particularly industry in their several callings, and obedience to their superiors. He endeavored, by the most extraordinary efforts of preaching, in different places, and even in the open fields, to rouse the lower class of people from the last degree of inattention and ignorance to a sense of religion. For this, and his other labors, the name of GEORGE WHITEFIELD will long be remembered with esteem and veneration."

weasly said . I may close this head with observing what an honor it pleased God to put upon His faithful servant, by allowing him to declare His everlasting gospel in so many various countries, to such numbers of people, and with so great an effect on so many of their precious souls! Have we read or heard of any person since the Apostles, who testified the gospel of the grace of God through so widely extended a space, through so large a part of the habitable world? Have we read or heard of any person who called so many thousands, so many myriads, of sinners to repentance? Above all, have we read or heard of any who has been a blessed instrument in His hand of bringing so many sinners from "darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God?" It is true, were we to talk thus to the gay world, we should be judged to speak as barbarians. But you understand the language of the country to which you are going, and whither our dear friend is gone a little before us.

Good post Krispy.

I appreciate your spirit Bro.

Be well today,
Doug

Brother Krispy, we seem to have traveled a similar path, and have come to opposite conclusions...

I began my life as a sincere Christian in a Calvinistic church. In those days, “Arminians” were simply fools who didn’t know what the word “eternal” meant in “eternal life.” We laughed at those “fools” then... But deep down inside, my spirit was never free with the evil-speaking... It seemed wrong to me to mock other true believers in the Lord Jesus, even if their conclusions were strange to me, especially since I was ignorant of their reasons for coming to them.

Subsequently, I made a study of Doctrine, as well as a study of the History of Doctrine. Both were highly revealing. I learned how both sides used the Scriptures, what presuppositions they brought to them; what methods they used to catechize their converts, and what techniques they used to combat the opposing system. I also learned where the various doctrines came from in the first place: who first taught them, and how those doctrines progressed, changed, were mixed together, and refined through time and place.

And here we all are today... We have all come up through various modern denominations, and each hold, more or less, to the dominant prevailing doctrines of each. And if we think about it, we are TIED up to our doctrines in more ways than one. We are tied by our PRIDE, (for who wants to admit he was wrong after publically staking out a position?) And even if we could get over that hurdle by the power of God, and were able to seriously reconsider our doctrine and practice should overwhelming evidence “demand” it, we must then fear alienating our own families, our friends, and our local Church. Truly, we risk losing everything in this world we hold dear should we choose “TRUTH” before them...

You said:
“Also, having been in both theological camps I can also say with absolute certainty that most Arminians do not understand and totally mischaracterize Calvinism... and the same can be said about most Calvinists to Arminianism.”

This is so true. I have often thought that if both sides actually sat down like the noble Bereans, and simply spoke together with open hearts and minds, they would come to perfect agreement, because they would be READY to BELIEVE the doctrine, whatever it was the Scriptures literally said:

“These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with ALL READINESS OF MIND, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.” Acts 17:11

Sadly, most “discussion” today is between two opponents who are not “READY TO BELIEVE ALL THINGS”, should the most natural interpretation of the words of Scripture demand it.

What hinders us, dear Brother, but the PRIDE of our hearts, and the fear of the alienation of our family and friends and Church? These are the true obstacles to removing this disunity, this “Calvinism vs. Arminianism Debate” that has plagued the true Church of Jesus Christ for the past 500 years or so.

I see dear Brother, that like me, you too have spent years in a home-church; you too have had to change your views... You too have had to lose friends and your Church. We know what that pain is like, don’t we, dear Brother?

Be well today my friend,
Doug

hi, i have a strange theology coming from a strong calvistic backround... the future is all whosoever will and the past is predestined from the foundation of the earth.i walked up to a door one day and it said enter and when i turned around after going in ,it said exit.jimp one day a bible col. prof asked if a traffic light can be red and green at the same time and the class said no and he said that they are always red and green at the same time, it depended upon how you approached it.

Krispy said:
"Always learning, Doug... if we stay teachable there is no telling where God will lead us."

Yes Bro... if we stay teachable, and are willing to lose everything for Christ's sake if necessary, there is no telling where God will lead us.

An awesome and terrifying thought if we really think about it. Yet, our "God is a consuming fire", and what is our flesh, dear brothers, but fuel for that FIRE?

May God bless you Brothers, and may He help you and me both!

Be well,
Doug