The High Benefit of Christian Submission

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roadsign Nov 7, 2011

The High Cost of Christian Submission

Submission is the Christian duty: “Submit to one another in the fear of Christ”. Eph. 5:21 It is the sense of yielding to another. We submit to those who have authority over us in our domestic relationships. We submit to the governing powers. (see Rom 12). We submit to our enemies. We submit to our subordinates – even as Christ submitted to humanity - by yielding his life. The Christian submits in all human contexts. It is our way of life – our very nature.

There is a quality of submission that arises merely from the flesh; but there is a different quality of submission made possible through surrender to Christ. The believer can submit in ways that are most unreasonable – even impossible for the unregenerate. Fleshly submission goes the first mile; godly submission, the second mile.

Fleshly submission is tainted with self-righteousness; Godly submission with true brokenness and humility. In fleshly submission the “self’ is preserved; in godly submission the ‘self’ is crucified. Fleshly submission is driven by the fear of man and the doctrine of works; Christ-centered submission, by the fear of God and by his grace.

Fleshly submission is an effect of slavery; godly submission, of freedom. Yet, paradoxically Christian submission is a form of slavery. (see Rom. 6:16 -23)

In scripture the idea of submission is often applied towards God’s children who are dominated, oppressed, and exploited. That is where believers have most often found themselves. That’s a historical reality. These are the ones, I believe, who can help us understand our call to submission.

So far I have said little about the nature and outworking of submission. I would like to explore this theme further.

Further study, I think can help me rise above the tendency to perceive “submission” through the fleshly mindset or through cultural paradigms (which has merely created confusion and dividing walls).

I cherish your thoughts and contributions.

Diane

sermonindex Nov 7, 2011

Fleshly submission is driven by the fear of man,

Yes.

Jesus said, My sheep know my voice and won't follow another.

The problem comes when we haven't had the time to get to Know His Voice. Normally that only comes through a great amount of time alone with Him or to those who's childlike faith has tuned in early in their walks or through those wilderness times.
We normally join a Church immediately after getting saved - which can be either good or bad, and rather than ask The LORD for counsel and learn Christ & His Word by study - we'll depend soley on others to answer all of our questions and there's not always the same quality of growth or quaranteed safety in that method, compared to asking Him with His Word wide open.

There is such a characteristic labeled "a dependent personality". These folks have little confidence to go it alone and need always get direction from someone else - other than alone in prayer with GOD.
Granted, for some it is more difficult to go from living autonomously while unsaved to suddenly getting saved and learning some "voice within" or to know His Word well enough to know how to find well sought-out counsel from it alone. There's a very vulnerable time directly after becoming a Christian and normally that is when new Christians are most vulnerable to come under the control of another, who is only too happy 'to control'.
Ideally, a leader will lead that person to an independent-dependence on Christ and His Word and away from depending solely on others to answer all of their questions. I was always taught that a good leader will always do that, besides just pray with the person and throw out questions and conversation that would train the person to seek out answers for themselves. Submission is normally only needed when the 'direction' we should go in is in question.

As far as 'leaders' go - few are called in comparison to how many call themselves by that title.

I've always actually enjoyed submission but after enough hard knocks, came to learn that GOD must truly show me clearly who I am to submit to. Gratefully, I found a very Godly Pastor and his wife is more of a sister to me/us than any "first lady" type. He set an example that few can follow. A good leader will lead by example and know how to walk with you through your hard times and his counsel will come across more as suggestions that we should go to GOD with.

Complicated topic. Other than wives submitting to their husbands and us to parents - except if it's a directive to sin against our conscience before GOD - my belief that all things and those who would 'lead' should be tested for a sufficient season, with prayer for protection for ourselves from our Good Shepherd.
Nothing wrong with taking time to "prove" an individual to be certain that what they are asking us to submit to is from the Spirit and not their flesh.

1Ti 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
1Ti 3:10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.

GOD doesn't bless blind submission. We're individually responsible and accountable to know His voice & Word for ourselves.
Walking this walk 'blind' in any area because we haven't consulted our King and permitting time for our own growth to hear His answers is the major cause of falls - either morally or doctrinally.
We can depend on others so much that we totally stunt our own growth - GOD forbid it.

There's so much more to this but I'll leave it and thank you for your post.

G

ginnyrose Nov 7, 2011

Diane, the way you contrast godly submission with fleshy submission is thoughtful, indeed...reminds me of the times when you tell a child he needs to apologize and does it because he fears you, not because he is sorry. Still, this exercise in submission is not bad - one hopes that in time the child will mature and learn the lesson the parent hoped to instill in that child.

Another aspect of submission used to be talked a lot about by our deacon - the one that exists in husband and wife relationships. The wife brings into a marriage her insights, perceptions of life, or whatever. It is her responsibility to share these insights with her husband for the betterment of life and to make life work. A wife who fails to share her insights with her husband is not a submissive wife. It has been my experience that rarely are my insights totally adequate to the issue at hand, but an important component that is essential in whatever decision is being made. I lend to it and in so doing it will trigger a thinking process in my husbands' mind that was absent before. This is the value of brainstorming where people of diverse experiences will share their insights in dealing with the issue at hand.

No, submission is not bad - it is the oil that lubricates the wheels of society, that keep it running smoothly. If it is inspired by the WORD you will have this added component in seeing the will of God at work.

I look forward to reading others' insights.

ginnyrose

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roadsign Nov 7, 2011

The quality of Christian submission is best demonstrated in Jesus Christ – most notably, his submission to evil man. He submitted to the point of death when he could have called ten thousand angels. He submitted, even when it meant he would be misunderstood, mocked as a failure, a loser. He submitted when he became the scapegoat for human sin. Note, he did not do this out of powerlessness or coercion - but out of free will and love:

When we were still God’s enemies (that is, in an undeserving state) Christ submitted his life in death. This is how God demonstrates his love to us. (See Romans 5) This is the ultimate submission. Really it is about Christ’s submission to none other than his heavenly Father.

We can easily understand submission to those who deserve our deference. But what about our “enemies” – those who seek our harm, or who seek to use us for their gain? When we touch on this aspect of submission, we touch on a very common Christian experience (historically and globally). Remember, when one becomes a believer, one lays aside their “swords”, ie, power over others. And in that way, they become vulnerable in a fallen and hostile world.

How does scripture address this?

Diane

sermonindex Nov 7, 2011

"Fleshly submission is tainted with self-righteousness; Godly submission with true brokenness and humility. In fleshly submission the “self’ is preserved; in godly submission the ‘self’ is crucified. Fleshly submission is driven by the fear of man and the doctrine of works, Christ-centered submission, by the fear of God and by his grace."

Yes indeed Diane, and may I add that Christ centered submission is driven, at the very heart, by love. We love Him because He loved us. We have a genuine relationship with Him because we are bond-servants. In the days of slavery, when a slave could have chosen freedom but he chose to stay with His master, what a beautiful thing and what a reflection upon the master. His Love for us changes everything. When all of the above flows from love then one is near to the heart of God. Of course this can only happen to those who have encountered the love of God and been completly broken and transformed by it.......brother Frank

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El-Bethel Nov 7, 2011

I couldn't conceal my joy in reading this thread. Thank you bros and siss for this wonderful, blesssed thread.Roadsign, one of the great threads.

R

roadsign Nov 7, 2011

In scripture:

Joseph submitted to his ruler Pharaoh, and it cost him a jail term.

David submitted to King Saul by sparing his life. Yet it cost David.

Daniel submitted the pagan emperor by serving and honouring him - and it cost him the lion's den.

Hannah submitted her right to motherhood, by offering Samuel to an apostate highpriest. God used Samuel for his redemptive purposes.

Jeremiah called Israel to submit to the Babylonian empire – but they refused. The cost was judgment - not blessing. Even still, Jeremiah submitted to God’s call, and remained faithful to Israel.

Other examples?

PS In what way did they all give to "Caesar" what is "Caesar's" and to God what is God's?

R

roadsign Nov 7, 2011

The “Second Mile” – a Risky Submission

I offered a few examples of Bible people who submitted to superior powers. Many others were positioned as underdogs in the societal power grid. Yet through their submission they exercised great power – power of a nature that pagans could not comprehend. It is the power to offer the rulers and authorities what (in God’s economy) is owed to them: loyalty, respect, deference, and the fruit of one’s labors. It is independent of the merit of the recipient. According to Jesus this is what it means to “be perfect”: to dispense merciful love just like God does - towards the just and the unjust alike. (see Matt. 5:43-48)

The “first mile” is performed out of obligation, the “second mile” out of freedom – and more: In that second mile the love of Christ becomes evident. But so does something else:

The superior realizes that he cannot control or intimidate his subject, nor does he have full authority over this person. The “second mile” puts the superior in a position of lesser power. He realizes that the Christian is acting from a different authority, one that is uncontrollable and that cannot be subdued. The “second mile” is an affront to a ruler’s supreme authority - and so for the Christian it is a double-edged sword. It is why so many Christians are persecuted.

Nothing is more threatening to an empire than uncontrollable subjects. All who appear to threaten its power must be kept in check. This could become true for any human-run system of governance – be that an education system, a religious system, the health system, and so forth. From that perspective – true Christian submission in a fallen world is inevitably threatening and will incur resistance.

“The second mile” can either humble a superior or aggravate him (or her). He can’t stay neutral. The response is either submission to Christ or hostile resistance against Him – vented towards the Christian.

Christian submission is costly …. but it is fruitful.

Diane

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InTheLight Nov 7, 2011

Other examples?

Jonathan, Saul's son comes to mind. He submitted to his father and served in war to the bitter end.
He submitted himself to David, a commoner, even though he was in line to be king.

I suppose he was ultimately submitted to the truth. Ultimately he recognized that it was God's choice.

In Christ,

Ron

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roadsign Nov 8, 2011

Jonathan, Saul's son comes to mind. He submitted to his father and served in war to the bitter end.

This I do not understand. Did Jonathan’s loyalty to his father in battle reflect godly submission - or merely a compliance that God never intended?

He submitted himself to David, a commoner, even though he was in line to be king.
I suppose he was ultimately submitted to the truth. Ultimately he recognized that it was God's choice.

This I can understand. Here Jonathan put himself in line with God’s design.

sermonindex Nov 8, 2011

I believe that I learned the most about submission from Richard Wurmbrand's books. Most especially thinking of his essay - The Underground Church.

Depends on one's eschatology or world view - what they'd see through that.

sermonindex Nov 8, 2011

If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies, fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: but made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: and being found in fashion as a man, He humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. (Philippians 2:1-8)

Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, and be found in Him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: that I may know Him, and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being made conformable unto His death; if by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. (Philippians 3:4-11)

And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: that your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. (1 Corinthians 5:1-5)

Paul intentionally disrobed himself of all of his intellect and learnedness for the church at Corinth. Their culture highly esteemed the wisdom and philosophical opinions of man and this leaven was spreading throughout the church (Luke 16:15). So Paul emptied himself to where he only mirrored Jesus Christ and His saving power on the cross. He saw the need for them to return to their first love again so he deliberately debased himself for their sakes. That's submissive love. To be considered a fool in the eyes of many for the sake of the salvation of a few is the mind of Christ and the love of God compels this type of faith. Was he seeking to please man? He was a bondservant of Christ (Galatians 1:10) and just as Christ was severely misunderstood for the joy set before Him, Paul decided to follow in His footsteps, despising the shame, walking by faith to recover what was lost.

J

jochbaptist Nov 8, 2011

1Pe 2:18 –
Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.

1Pe 2:19
FOR IT IS COMMENDABLE IF A MAN BEARS UP UNDER THE PAIN OF UNJUST SUFFERING BECAUSE HE IS CONSCIOUS OF GOD.

1Pe 2:20
But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? BUT IF YOU SUFFER FOR DOING GOOD AND YOU ENDURE IT, THIS IS COMMENDABLE BEFORE GOD.

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roadsign Nov 8, 2011

I see many beautiful posts here – with so many different perspectives – church, family, Christian books, scriptures….. Thank you!

1Pe 2:19
FOR IT IS COMMENDABLE IF A MAN BEARS UP UNDER THE PAIN OF UNJUST SUFFERING BECAUSE HE IS CONSCIOUS OF GOD.

Such as David. King Saul had caused David brutal unjust suffering. Yet in his lament (2 Sam. 1) David honored Saul. You see no thoughts of condemnation, ill will, or resentment. His grief flowed from sweet love and admiration – as if all the suffering and wrongs had vanished from his mind. “Love keeps no record of wrongs”. The severe trials served to make David acutely “conscious of God” (1 Pe 2:19) and also of his own sin. So David could eagerly honor Saul in death as he did in life. Surely David considered Saul better than himself. David went the second mile.

To me David’s lament is a tender portrait of godly submission to a faltering king.

In the lament David honors Saul as much as he honors Jonathan. Should I not also treat my own “Sauls” as I do my “Jonathans”? Isn’t that what Jesus meant when he said, “Be Perfect?” (see Matt. 5:43-48)

Diane

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roadsign Nov 8, 2011

Submit: [Greek: hupotasso]

1) to arrange under, to subordinate
2) to subject, put in subjection
3) to subject one's self, obey
4) to submit to one's control
5) to yield to one's admonition or advice
6) to obey, be subject
++++
A Greek military term meaning "to arrange [troop divisions] in a
military fashion under the command of a leader". In non-military use,
it was "a voluntary attitude of giving in, cooperating, assuming
responsibility, and carrying a burden".

(from NetBible.org)

sermonindex Nov 8, 2011

Some, like me, believe we're living in the beginning of the Last Days when deception will run rampant and as Richard Wurmbrand warned us - to be Very careful who you submit to, because we don't know until the End, Who will remain faithful until the end.
Many people fall when their 'leaders' fall or those they've looked up to.
Many Pastors have taken special training on how to round up their church's people under some special FEMA program. You decide if you want to get on that bus with them.

The greatest thing that we could lead people to, at this juncture is, to learn His Voice - His leading and to trust Him with all of our hearts, that regardless of what the majority are doing - we'll obey His leading. Without being submissive to the guidance of His Spirit, we're in rebellion, even if every Christian around us, is doing the opposite of what we're feeling led to do or not do.

Blind submission to human beings contradicts complete submission to Him, at the most crucial times in history.

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InTheLight Nov 9, 2011

This I do not understand. Did Jonathan’s loyalty to his father in battle reflect godly submission - or merely a compliance that God never intended?

Yes, this is difficult to understand. It's a tough question, is there some point where Jonathan should have just walked away?

In spite of great differences with his father he was still the king,appointed by God. Also, his father was not asking him to do something immoral. In submission to God he honored his father.

In Christ,

Ron

sermonindex Nov 9, 2011

"In spite of great differences with his father he was still the king,appointed by God. Also, his father was not asking him to do something immoral. In submission to God he honored his father."

This is the same thing Carter Conlon believed the Holy Spirit was showing him. I coincidentally (moreso providentially) listened to this sermon today:

Loyalty
http://media.sermonindex.net/23/SID23086.mp3

R

roadsign Nov 9, 2011

… be very careful who you submit to, because we don't know until the End, Who will remain faithful
Blind submission to human beings … .

I wonder, does scripture ever imply that submission require the acceptance of one’s ideologies? Even Paul required his listeners to “examine scripture” and see if his teaching lined up.

It would seem that “blind submission” is not Christian submission at all. How can one truly and freely submit to another while blinded. That seems more like passive conformity to an influence – other than Christ. It is giving to “Caesar” (a human power/ruler) what belongs to God.

I am concerned about the assumption that we decide to whom we submit. If we perceive one’s doctrine to be in error we think we are under no obligation to submit to that person. Yet scripture does not seem to make this distinction. After all, we are called to submit to enemies, to pagan Caesars, to unbelieving spouses - even our persecutors.

Oh … how many dividing walls in Christianity have been caused by the assumption that one is no under obligation to submit to the one "in the wrong" (assuming, of course, that we are in the right).

Ginnyrose explains submission as:

the oil that lubricates the wheels of society, that keep it running smoothly

This is insightful! In our “free” society – it is all too easy to drop a church when things aren’t right in our estimation. It is all too easy to leave a spouse; it is all too easy to join a labour union against our employer (using Carter Conlon’s example). In this way our loyalty is conditional upon one’s merit in our eyes. that, really, is not loyalty at all. I think this happens when God's people can't distinguish between what belongs to "Caesar" and what belongs to God. And they feel trapped.

Conlon (in the sermon posted here) uses of the word “loyalty” – to convey the idea of Christian submission. I prefer to keep the word “submission” here because we need to wrestle through with it. It is a word that has become extremely distasteful due to misuse (and abuse). I wish to reclaim it for kingdom purposes.

Diane

sermonindex Nov 10, 2011

Submit – 5293. {40x} hupotasso, hoop-ot-as’-so; from 5259 and 5021; to subordinate; reflexive to obey:—put under {6x}, be subject unto {6x}, be subject to {5x}, submit (one’s) self unto {5x}, submit (one’s) self to {3x}, be in subjection unto {2x}, put in subjection under {1x}, miscellaneous {12x} = be under obedience (obedient), subdue unto.
(1) This was originally a Greek military term meaning to arrange [troop divisions] in a military fashion under the command of a leader. (2) In non-military use, it was a voluntary attitude of giving in, cooperating, assuming responsibility, and carrying a burden. (3) It denotes (3a) “to put in subjection, to subject, to put under” in Romans 8:20 (twice); 1 Corinthians 15:27 (thrice), 28 (3rd clause); Ephesians 1:22; Hebrews 2:8 (4th clause); (3b) in 1 Corinthians 15:28 (1st clause), “be subdued”; (3c) in Philippians 3:21, “subdue”; (3d) in Hebrews 2:5, “hath… put in subjection”; (4) in the middle or passive voice, to subject oneself, to obey, be subject to, (4a) Luke 2:51; 10:17, 20; (4b) Romans 8:7; 10:3, “have (not) submitted themselves”; 13:1, 5; (4c) 1 Corinthians 14:34, “be under obedience”; 15:28 (2nd clause); 16:16, “submit, etc.”; so Colossians 3:18; (4d) Ephesians 5:21, “submitting, etc.”; 5:22, 24, “is subject”; (4e) Titus 2:5, 9, “be obedient”; 3:1, “to be subject”; (4f) Hebrews 12:9, “be in subjection”; James 4:7, “submit yourselves”; so (4g) 1 Peter 2:13, 18; so 3:1, 5, 22, “being made subject”; 5:5, “submit yourselves”; also in the 2nd part. See: TDNT—8:39, 1156; BAGD—847d; THAYER—645c.

5259. {230x} hupo, hoop’-o; a primary preposition; under, i.e. (with the genitive) of place (beneath), or with verbs (the agency or means, through); (with the accusative) of place (whither [underneath] or where [below] or time (when [at]):—of {116x}, by {42x}, under {48x}, with {14x}, in {1x}, not tr {6x}, miscellaneous {3x} = among, from. [In composition, it retains the same general applications, especially of inferior position or condition, and specially covertly or moderately.] See: BAGD—843a; THAYER—642a.

5021. {8x} tasso, tas’-so; a prolonged form of a primary verb (which latter appears only in certain tenses); to arrange in an orderly manner, i.e. assign or dispose (to a certain position or lot):—addict {1x}, appoint {3x}, determine {1x}, ordain {2x}, set {1x}.
Tasso, as a verb, means “to place in order, arrange,” and signifies (1) “to appoint” of the place where Christ had “appointed” a meeting with His disciples after His resurrection: “Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them” (Matthew 28:16); (1b) of positions of military and civil authority over others, whether (1b1) “appointed” by men: “For I also am a man set (tasso) under authority, having under me soldiers, and I say unto one, God, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it” (Luke 7:8), or (1b2) by God: “Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God” (Romans 13:1). It signifies (2) to be “ordained.” (2a) It is said of those who, having believed the gospel, “were ordained to eternal life”: “And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed” (Acts 13:48). (2b) The house of Stephanas at Corinth had “addicted” themselves to the ministry of the saints: “I beseech you, brethren, ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted (tasso) themselves to the ministry of the saints” (1 Corinthians 16:15). Synonym: (A) Entellomai (1781) means to enjoin, is used especially of those whose office or position invests them with claims, and points rather to the contents of the command, check “our instruction.” (B) Keleuo (2753) means to command, designates verbal orders, coming usually from a superior. (C) Paraggello (3853) means to charge, and is used especially of the order of a military commander to his troops. Tasso means to assign a post to, with a suggestion of duties connected with it, often used of military appointments. (D) Paragello (3853) differs from entellomai (1781) in denoting fixed and abiding obligations rather than specific or occasional instructions, duties arising from the office rather than coming from the personal will of a superior. See: TDNT—8:27, 1156; BAGD—805d; THAYER—615c.

(from Strong's concordance)