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Believing by faith alone will not get you saved

sermonindex Nov 12, 2011

There was a thread that started out as another topic, but as it progressed it really became about something else.

Please do not bring up the other topic.

The REAL topic (which was hidden, but soon revealed) was the proposition that we are not saved by faith alone, but by faith and works.

Are we saved by faith alone? Or are we saved by a mixture of faith and our works?

Is there only one covenant, and not two? We were informed that there is only ONE covenant, and that we are decieved if we think there are TWO covenants.

We were also told we are deceived if we think that we do not have to live by the Levitical Law... and by faith in Christ.

Does anyone disagree with this? Does anyone agree?

I've noticed this type of teaching popping up on this forum under different topics.

(By the way, this is not meant to undermine the authority of the moderator who closed down the previous thread. He did so because on the surface the thread was about another topic altogether... but I suspect he did not realize that this other topic had risen to the surface. I think it is a worthy topic of discussion since there are some newer people here who are bringing these teachings to multiple discussions on here.)

Krispy

sermonindex Nov 12, 2011

A newbie told me that at over 7,000 posts (in 7 years) that it was time for me to be silent... and so I will.

I will honor the request of the newbie and offer nothing. I am interested in seeing what everyone believes concerning these new doctrines that are making their way onto this forum.

Krispy

sermonindex Nov 12, 2011

No, we are not saved by faith alone.

We are saved by Faith through Grace and as clear as this may seem, it goes on to say, not by our own works have we achieved this, but by unmerited favour.

When people start talking about "works" and that we "must" do this or that to be saved, thier spirit is tainted with a lie and it really shouldn't be tolerated lest we ourselves fall victim to the same lie through debate and reason.

The works that Paul and all the other writers including James is speaking of is the fruit of the Holy Spirit and His exploits that He does with each person in the body as He Wills.

When He says, "go over there and share my love". Our part is to obey and move in the direction that He is telling us to go. When we arrive at the destination and we open our mouth He is speaking through us.

Look at the words of Jesus;

John 14:10 .... the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, He doeth the works.

HE IS DOING THE WORK!

Not us, all He requires of me is that I move when He tells me to move, or open my mouth when He says speak. He warns us not to be stiffnecked. Stiffnecked people don't move, they hinder.

James is saying that if you have love(faith) but don't show compassion what good is your love (faith), for "faith worketh by love"?

Many think that we "have to" feed the poor, or "have to" do something to maintain God's favour by doing some charitable work.

Hey charitable work is great, but our motive has got to be right before God and to those that we are being charitable.

If our motive to doing any act of compassion is based upon obtaining favour with God or giving into the offering plate will some how turn Gods' Head towards us in special recognition for our good deeds, we have missed the mark.

Our works are filthy rags. Only the works that proceed out of the believer come directly from the power of the Holy Ghost when we obey His voice and do His will, that no flesh shall glory in my presence sayeth the Lord.

sermonindex Nov 12, 2011

I hope you don't mind, but rather than argue the point (which is just a tired exercise these days...) I will post some thoughts from an article, "Resting...True Faith" by Malcolm Smith:


Resting in the Lord is the beginning of all true obedience. If you are not resting then you are struggling, striving, and spending a lot of energy in the attempt to please God. Faith is a simple rest in the absolute assurance of the Lord to do just as He has promised. "He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it." (1 Thess. 5:24) Know this: God keeps His promises. Real faith is resting on His word and on His Person. I cannot repeat this too often. Faith is rest.

sermonindex Nov 12, 2011

Many Christians are asking, "what is the reason there is so much feebleness in the Church?" We cannot ask this question too earnestly, and I trust that God Himself will so impress it upon our hearts that we will say to Him, "It must be changed. Have mercy upon us." But, that prayer and that change cannot come until we begin to see that there is a something extremely wrong in the way we have tried to please God. Many are living more after the flesh than the Spirit is. Many people are attempting to please God and overcome sin by the law. God did not give us the Law as a new or alternate way to Him, but to show us the depth of our sinfulness and selfishness, and to bring us to the point of despair of all our own ability to change our condition. In the hour of helplessness, we are driven to receive of God’s grace.

sermonindex Nov 12, 2011

The devil did not suggest that Eve become a devil! Instead, He suggested that her action would result in her becoming like God. God commands us "to be ye holy for I am holy" which certainly sounds as if man was to be like God! Can you fault a man for wanting to be like God? The subtle temptation was that they should pursue the course of being like God, but quite independently of God, using their own will power and struggles to achieve what ONLY God can do.

The Pharisees fell into this same error. They dedicated their lives to understanding God’s law and its application to life and ended up, not with righteousness, but with slavery to rules and regulations that they had set up for themselves to keep. They were seeking to follow the letter of the law by their own self-effort and will power. They also were prideful and looked down others who seemed less dedicated to the law than them.

M
murrcolr Nov 12, 2011

Quote: Is there only one covenant, and not two? We were informed that there is only ONE covenant, and that we are decieved if we think there are TWO covenants.

It is written, that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondmaid, and one by the freewoman, Howbeit, the one by the bondmaid is born after the flesh; but the son by the freewoman is born through promise. Which things contain an allegory: for these women are two covenants. GAL 4:22-24.

THERE are two covenants, one called the Old, the other the New. God speaks of this very distinctly in Jeremiah, where He says "The days come, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, not after the covenant I made with their fathers"

This is quoted also in Hebrews, with the addition "In that He saith a new covenant, He hath made the first old." Our Lord spoke Himself of the New Covenant in His blood. In His dealings with His people, in His working out His great redemption, it has pleased God that there should be two covenants.

------------------------------------------

Quote: Are we saved by faith alone? Or are we saved by a mixture of faith and our works?

Quote: We were also told we are deceived if we think that we do not have to live by the Levitical Law... and by faith in Christ.

In keeping with the theme of covenants

The Old Covenant we should keep in mind has two aspects under which we have seen in Scripture The combination of the two aspects are clear in Galatians. Paul speaks of all who are of the works of the law as under the curse Gal 3:10 And then almost immediately after he speaks of the law as being our benefactor, a schoolmaster unto Christ, into whose charge, as to a tutor or governor, we had been given, till the time appointed of the Father.

The lessons God would teach us through the Old Covenant.

1) Brings men to a sense of their utter sinfulness.
2) The need of a savior as they are hopeless impotent to deliver themselves.

But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put My law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be My people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know Me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Jer 31: 33-34

A summary of the New Covenant. The last-named blessing, the pardon of sin, is the first in order, the root of all. The second, having God as our God, and the third, the Divine teaching and the law in the heart.

Through the whole of the Old Covenant there was always one trouble: man's heart was not right with God. In the New Covenant the evil is to be remedied. Its central promise is a heart delighting in God's law and capable of knowing and holding fellowship with Him.

The central demand of the Old Covenant, Obey My voice, and I will be your God, has now been met. With the law written in the heart, He can be our God, and we shall be His people. Perfect harmony with God's will, holiness in heart and life, is the only thing that can satisfy God's heart. And it is this the New Covenant gives in Divine power, "I will give them an heart to know Me; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people; for they shall turn to me with their whole heart."

It is on the state of the heart, it is on the new heart given by God by faith, that the unmerited favor of New Covenant life hinges.

Pauls asks

Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or the hearing of faith?"

The Galatians had indeed been born into the New Covenant; they had received the Holy Spirit. But they had been led away by Jewish teachers, and, though they had been justified by faith, they were seeking to be sanctified by works; they were looking for the maintenance and the growth of their Christian life to the observance of the law.

They had not understood that, equally with the beginning, the progress of the Divine life is by faith alone, day by day receiving its strength from Christ alone.

Almost every believer makes the same mistake as the Galatian Christians. Very few learn at conversion that it is only through faith that we stand, and walk, and live.

At conversion we have no conception of the meaning of Paul's teaching about being dead to the law, freed from the law about the freedom with which Christ makes us free. "As many as are led by the Spirit are not under the law."

The mistake is to regard the law as a Divine ordinance for our direction and considering ourselves prepared and fitted by conversion to take up the law as a natural duty.

Not knowing that, in the New Covenant, the law written in the heart needs an unceasing faith in a Divine power, to enable us by a Divine power to keep it.

Failing to understand that it is not to the law, but to a Living Person, that we are now bound, and that our obedience and holiness are only possible by the unceasing faith in His power ever working in us.

G
ginnyrose Nov 12, 2011

I believe the message of Hebrews 7:7-14 speaks to us today just as it did to the Jews it was sent to originally.

Hebrews 7:7-14: NASB

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.

8 For finding fault with them, He says,
“BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD,
WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT
WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;

9 NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS
ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND
TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT;
FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT,
AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD.

10 “FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL
AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:
I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS,
AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS.
AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD,
AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.

11 “AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN,
AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, ‘KNOW THE LORD,’
FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME,
FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.

12 “FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES,
AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE.”

13 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

The OT serves us well in helping us understand the person and nature of God - His holiness, how he deals with sin and its remedy. Without this information Jesus' death and resurrection would be meaningless.

My understanding...

Seems to me some folks love to complicate simple doctrine...

L
learjet Nov 12, 2011

Hi Krispy,

Love the topic!

Here's my view:

The world has a saying "if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and looks like a duck, then it's a duck"

I agree 100% that we are saved by faith alone (as Paul explained to the Ephesians) and now by works that any man should boast.

A truly born again person whose cup is cleansed on the inside will do works, not out of obligation, but from a love of Jesus who gave everything for us. This person's motivation is not to 'be saved' but a work of appreciation for all that has been given to him in grace. It's not the works that saved him but the original work of the Spirit in his heart.

There are many in the organization known as the church (the corporation) that are doing works that aren't saved. Jesus warned us about this in the parable of the farmer who went out and sowed seed, the seed came up and there were weeds in the midst of it. The servants asked Him is they should pull the weeds and He told them "no" because it would damage the good plants, He would separate them at the harvest.

Anyway, that's my feeble attempt to answer your question, thanks for asking and I hope this makes a little bit of sense. :-) Love ya brother!!

sermonindex Nov 12, 2011

John 6:28-29
Then they asked him. "What must we do to do the works God requires?" Jesus answered, "The work of God is this, to BELIEVE in the one he has sent:"

Acts 16:30-31
He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs what must I do to be saved? They replied, "BBELIEVE in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved-------you and your household."

Acts 15:9
He made no distintion between us and them for he purified their hearts BY FAITH.

Romans 1:17
For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is BY FAITH from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live BY FAITH."

Romans 10:9-10
That if you confess with your mouth "Jesus is Lord," and BELIEVE in your heart that God raised him from the dead YOU WILL BE SAVED. For it is with your heart that you BELIEVE and are JUSTIFIED and it is with your mouth you confess AND ARE SAVED.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For it is by GRACE you have been SAVED, through FAITH -------and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-------not by works so that no one can boast.

Caps are for emphasis only.

The scriptures testify that salvation is by faith and faith alone in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross. Anyone who denies this is denying the truth of the gospel and is not saved. In this matter no Christian should ever be silent.

Krispy I may disagree with you on some things but this issue we agree on SALVATION IS BY FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST. So I say brother don't be silent. But proclaim from the roof tops that salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ and him alone.

Submitted without apology,
Blaine Scogin

R
romanchog Nov 12, 2011

The short answer is that we are saved by faith. But the proof that we are saved (synonyms for this: abide in Him, we are in Christ, we know Him, etc.) is that we walk as Jesus walked.

1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.
6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

(By commandment, it is not understood to be the entire law as had been developed in Judaism at the time. It is the law of the Spirit.)

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

(So we must be walking according to the Spirit if we are truly in Christ Jesus.)

Romans 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

(In other words, if you live by the flesh, you are not in Christ, so you will not inherit eternal life and will die. Those who live by the Spirit, and are therefore sons of God, will inherit eternal life and live.)

Heb 8:10 (quoting Jer 31:33): For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

(The new covenant that we have in Christ, being more glorious than the first covenant under the law (2 Cor 3:7-11) is a covenant of the Spirit (2 Cor 3:6) and is manifested in us through God's laws being written directly on our minds and hearts, so that we are moved to obey Him by our intellect and our emotions).

In summary, though salvation is NOT by works, but by repentance and faith, your faith is shown through living your life in the Spirit and not in the flesh.

The issue really is, when we say that we receive salvation by believing in Christ, what does it mean to believe? This short video by Francis Chan is a good illustration of that concept.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EedUll7SGr0

sermonindex Nov 12, 2011

Blaine, dont worry... on essentials you and I are blood brothers! There is no doubt.

As for me being silent, I am honoring the request of a newbie. Basically on another thread (which was locked because of the originaly topic) I was asking the gentleman who insisted that we MUST live the Levitical Law for salvation if he never cuts the hairs on the side of his head, or never trims the edges of his beard (Lev 19:27). For two days he refused to answer my question, so I did begin to badger him some about this. I believe the newbie did not really understand the signifigance of my question. He got a little annoyed with me, and thats ok. No hard feelings.

But in all seriousness, these things are vitally important because these ARE the essentials. If someone truly believes that we must live under the Law in order to be saved then they are saying that Christ's death was pointless. He wasted His blood.

Folks, thats blasphemous.

This other gentleman claimed there is but ONE Covenant... the Law. He claimed there is no new covenant, and where the Bible mentions a new covenant it is merely error that was entered by the translators. Now, of course this shows that the gentleman is very ignorant of Bible translating and the history of it.

Back to the hair cut question tho, whenever someone comes to you and demands that we must live according to the OT Law... the first thing you do is ask: Do you? They will say yes. Then you ask: OK, so do you refrain from cutting the hairs on the side of your head, or from trimming the edges of your beard as Lev 19:27 commands?

They will NEVER answer that question unless they are those guys you see with the black suit and hat and the hair hanging down the sides of their heads. (I do not know enough about Judaism... I'm not an expert, sorry)

Anyway, I find it interesting and hypocritical that some Christians come to us telling us that we must obey the Law... obey this and that from the Levitical Law... when they themselves do not even attempt to obey the Law.

The reason that I started this thread is because I am seeing a trend on this forum of more and more newer people bringing Law keeping as the way to salvation into conversations. Usually not as bluntly as this person I am speaking of, but it's there. And it needs to be addressed. It's a false teaching... it's Judaizing, as Paul referred to it. (Some may think that is an anti-semitic term, but it's NOT. It's a Biblical term that simply means someone who is trying to put believing Christians under the Law of Moses.)

Krispy

sermonindex Nov 12, 2011

By the way... we SHOULD use the Law to help lead people to salvation. We use it to show them that they have sinned against God and fallen short. That they can NEVER keep the Law... and that is why we need a Saviour!

Law keeping can never save us because none of us can ever keep the Law.

Thats the whole point of the Law! To point us to Christ!

Krispy

B
brothagary Nov 12, 2011

i have to say i fully agree with you last 2 posts krispy

oh and most of your other posts

that is how one uses the law lawfully as paul says to timothy i think was timothey

it can be used to bring a sinner to christ

for it is said to be not made for a righeous

but for those contrary to the gosple of christ

a person regenarted by the spirit of god is not contrary to the gopsle therfor he is not under the law

and the law is not needed regarding him to bring him under conviction and to show him is rebelion

B
brothagary Nov 12, 2011

But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

009:

Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

010:

For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

011:

According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

B
brothagary Nov 12, 2011

gal 3.15
Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

016:

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

017:

And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

018:

For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

019:

Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

020:

Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

021:

Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

022:

But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

023:

But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

024:

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

025:

But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

026:

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus

B
brothagary Nov 12, 2011


010:

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

011:

But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

012:

And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

013:

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

014:

That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

M
MichaelLiao Nov 13, 2011

I hope you don't mind, but rather than argue the point (which is just a tired exercise these days...) I will post some thoughts from an article, "Resting...True Faith" by Malcolm Smith

Hey Mahoney,

I want to ask, where did you get this material from Malcolm Smith, I want to check it out. It just reminds me of God's grace.

In Christ,

- Michael Liao

A
a-servant Nov 13, 2011

What's new in the new covenant? First of course the new high priest that is now Jesus himself:

Hebrews 12:24  And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

What happened to God's laws?

Hebrews 10:16  This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

These laws are now not in front of their eyes to read and trying to obey anymore, they are written into their hearts and in their minds.

This type of writing reminds me a little bit of hardcoding software instructions into a computer. With the difference that this "computer" has his own free will of whether he will run my program or not. However it's written in the heart (PC = RAM) and in the mind (PC = ROM).

Now when I want to check on this computer if I will include it in my fleet that will be used to work on projects and so ask this computer whether my laws (the instructions of the programmer) are written unto that PC or if they have ceased to exisit, and the PC responds by exercising his free will with "no such instructions have been written" - what would you as the project leader do with that PC?

Obviously it's a relationship, or a love issue. If he loves me he will run my instructions. If he doesn't love me we will not have a mutual lasting relationship. Now the lack of our relationship will tempt him to run other programs even contrary to my liking. And that ends his ability to even maintain minimum level of relationship by denying my grace to give him options in the first place. My software creator mind is thinking there along Paul's mind when he says:

Hebrews 10:29  Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace

That's where the analogy ends because the Son of God paid a much higher price to establish our possible relationship with the sheding of his blood.

sermonindex Nov 13, 2011

Michael

You know what...I had the article saved in my documents, and I thought it was by Malcolm Smith because it sounded so much like him...it very well may be because there is no author. But here is the link to the article...it was actually on SI...

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=4446&forum=35&post_id=&refresh=Go


Here is the link to Malcolm Smith's webinar channel too....just awesome!

http://www.youtube.com/user/MalcolmSmithWebinars

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