Baptism of the Holy Spirit...should we ask for it?

Been reading Samuel Chadwick (Ravenhill's teacher at seminary), along with some of Martyn Lloyd-Jones' material.

As some of you know, they both believed that the baptism of the Spirit is SEPARATE from the indwelling of the Spirit during regeneration (when you are saved). And it didn't mean to ask for gift of tongues, etc either from what I have been gathering...

They both believe (I think) this is also separate from how it's intepreted from the modern charismatic movement

I know there are cessationists here who would disagree with Chadwick/Lloyd-Jones, but I'm curious as to what folks think.

Brother wilkens21,

I don’t think anyone is ignoring you because we disagree with you ....but you should know that we have just come off the heels of like… 5 different threads on the baptism of the Holy Spirit! You just missed them but here they are…..

Truth about the Gifts of the Holy Spirit
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=41571&forum=35&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0

Baptism of the Holy Spirit
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=41568&forum=34&5

Speaking in Tongues
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=41360&forum=36&52

Counterfeit or Genuine Tongues?
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=41535&post_id=301488&order=0&viewmode=flat&pid=0&forum=36#301488

Not all receive the Holy Spirit, because not all ask to receive it!
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=41331&forum=36&32

It’s about 50/50 here on this issue but you might want to read through these threads to see where we stand and give us a month or two to regather our wits about us!!! (huge grin) lol

God bless you,
Lisa

Instead of going through these threads, ask God to give you the wisdom.

The only mark of Baptism of Holy Spirit is victory over sin. Which means if the Holy SPirit shows you a sin in your life that you did not know before, you should be able to overcome that sin and repent immediately. This does not mean that you will not have sin, we all still have so many unconscious sins in our life that we are not aware of. But if you are made aware of then you should be able to give it up immediately.
Judge yourself based on this to see where you stand. If you keep struggling with same sin again and again then you need Baptism of Holy Spirit.
Different people get this Baptism of Holy Spirit at different time. I got it when I hit the rock bottom of my struggles and I have heard men of God like Brother Zac Poonan saying that they got it when they hit the rock bottom as well.
But there are people who get this power immediately after their first Baptism, like sister Lisa here. This all makes be believe that God cannot be constrained to work in us in a specific way.

by Sree
The only mark of Baptism of Holy Spirit is victory over sin.

God bless you,
Lisa

by wilkens21 on 2011/11/17 11:48:38

Been reading Samuel Chadwick (Ravenhill's teacher at seminary), along with some of Martyn Lloyd-Jones' material.

As some of you know, they both believed that the baptism of the Spirit is SEPARATE from the indwelling of the Spirit during regeneration (when you are saved). And it didn't mean to ask for gift of tongues, etc either from what I have been gathering...

They both believe (I think) this is also separate from how it's intepreted from the modern charismatic movement

I know there are cessationists here who would disagree with Chadwick/Lloyd-Jones, but I'm curious as to what folks think.

Let's get your opinion on the matter!!

God bless,
Lisa

Brother, with all due respect but I've got to call you on this... where is the above quote found in Scripture?

To be frank I do not know any scripture that directly proves me right. It is an interpretation of different scriptures and mainly based on personal experience of Holy Spirit and his work.

John 14-16:-
If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you

1 John 2-27:-
As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.

Jesus says that the purpose of Holy Spirit is a helper for us to keep his commands. The Holy Spirit teaches us truth based on both the scriptures and though which we abide in him(Jesus). And Jesus said in John 8:32 that this truth will set us free. Free of What? Free of Sin that separated us from God before.

1 John 3-6:-
No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.

So the main purpose of Holy Spirit is to seal us with him. And based on John 3-6, if we are sealed or abide with him then we cannot live in Sin or in other words we will have victory over sin.

So what do you think is the sign of Baptism of Holy Spirit?

Sree -

YOU STATED- So what do you think is the sign of Baptism of Holy Spirit?

I RESPOND- It is specifically POWER to be a witness. Jesus states this exactly in Acts 1:8. IT STATES, " But you will receive POWER when the Holy Spirit comes UPON you; and you will be my WITNESSES in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

I think you, and many people, may not have caught the difference of the Spirit WITHIN and the Spirit UPON.

When a person is born again the Holy Spirit comes to abide WITHIN them. That is true for every believer. A fruit of the Spirit that is born of the Holy Spirit living within us is self control. Taking dominion (self control) over sinfulness (as you related) is certainly a fruit born of that indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

However, the baptism in the Holy Spirit is a totally different issue. It has nothing to do with our salvation. It is a anointing of power UPON us. This power is not for us...it is for OTHERS. We are empowered to BE witnesses.

It is important to note the differences in scripture of the Holy Spirit WITHIN us and the Holy Spirit UPON us. They are different things given for different reasons. One is to develop Christlikeness and character within our lives. The other is to enable us to effectively minister to others.

Duncan Campbell, the key figure in the Hebrides Revivals, has several messages on this very thing on the site. I would encourage you to perhaps hear those. In addition.. simply read the book of Acts and note the differences of when it says the Holy Spirit was WITHIN or UPON them and what the differences were. Then read the New Testament as a whole looking for the same things. It will revolutionize your understanding of the ministry of The Holy Spirit. He is such a wonderful strengthener, encourager, revealer of what is needed, empowerer of us to do what is needed at the moment....He is The Paraclete and I love Him dearly.

CAPS were used only to emphasis certain words. No yelling was intended.

Blessings!

by Sree:
So what do you think is the sign of Baptism of Holy Spirit?

My concern is not over any particular sign or signs of the Holy Spirit but with your original statement of, “THE ONLY MARK of Baptism of Holy Spirit is ....” Logically speaking, you are saying there is “ONLY ONE” sign of the baptism and it is on that point only that I disagreed with you.

You ended your first post in this thread with, “This all makes be believe that God cannot be constrained to work in us in a specific way.” And that’s all I’m trying to say brother! I believe it to be misleading to say there is only one sign and I don’t believe that God can be constrained to one sign.... that is all!

God bless you brother,
Lisa

PS: I've got to get ready for work... didn't want you to think I would ignore you if I don't answer!

Brother Solomon,

Thanks a lot for this post.
If I understand you correctly, the first Baptism is Holy Spirit coming inside to do the will of God and the 2nd baptism is Holy Spirit coming upon us like the time of OT like 'the spirit of Lord Came upon Samson'.

SO you must then agree with all my post because I have talked from the perspective of HolY Spirit living or abiding in us and bringing Christlikeness. So the proof of Holy Spirit LIVING INSIDE you is Christlikeness. Is it safe to say this?

Now my understanding of Acts 1:8-
Jesus says when you receive power from Holy Spirit, you will be my witness. There is a difference between BEING WINTESS and TO WITNESS. Being Witness means, your life itself is a witness for Jesus. It is not just the word you speak or share in streets or Church. It is whole life that will be a witness. If Jesus had said that you will witness me, then it means we will be able to talk about Jesus and testify about him everywhere without fear, similar to what you have quoted.
So according to be to Be A Witness for Jesus (to live a life witnessing Jesus) is much higher standard and requires higher power than to just go and preach in streets. By saying this I am not reducing the value of testifying about Jesus to others. I have seen many who can preach powerful sermons but their inner life is nothing like Jesus.
I just posted my understanding of Acts 1:8. I am not posting to oppose your view or to hurt you.

hi, in justification it is clear that the Holy spirit emerses you in Jesus which is the fulfillment of passover. in the fulfillment of pentacost, Jesus emmerses you in the Holy Ghost luke 3:16 . the biblical promise is you shall receive power after the Holy Spirit comes upon you. as recorded in many places in acts this was accompanied by other evidences... that what we see and hear...a few times it was unknown tongues as evidence...we are never to seek evidence,but seek the Holy Spirit and all or anything that He might fuel us with... i see no problem with seeking all that God has for you as you walk out your life with Him on the earth.jimp

Baptism of the Holy Spirit...should we ask for it?

As Jesus said, ‘he is with us but he SHALL BE in us’ to me that points to a second baptism. So yes, wilkens21, we should ask for Him and EXPECT to receive Him. I would hope that you would post what you believe too!

God bless,
Lisa

Sorry I've been slow in responding and thanks for the responses. I almost regretting asking the question after hitting the submit button to be honest.

This is not really a discussion in my opinion about tongues/healings (at least from my mind).

I actually had a roommate who prayed in tongues and his family got involved with that holy laughter/toronto airport stuff (which I believe is not from the Lord), and visited charismatic churches and have seen (what I think are) supernatural things. So I've seen these "gifts" abused and put me more on the cessationist camp for my years as a Christian.

Anyway, I was listening to John Piper's biography of Martyn Lloyd-Jones which got me thinking about this more. If you have an hour, listen to it, it's a very good, balanced approach to what he (MLJ) thought. And MLJ is considered very orthodox from my understanding:

http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/biographies/a-passion-for-christ-exalting-power

And was reading Samuel Chadwick's The Way to Pentecost which is a free book you can download from various places. It's a good book I think, and I like L Ravenhill a lot so was curious about what his seminary teacher and the man who helped shaped his ministry thought.

I know MLJ battled folks who he thought were "quenching" the Spirit. MLJ wasn't about tongues/miracles either in terms of what I "think" he was getting at with the baptism of the Holy Spirit. But I think he thought it was seperate from regeneration.

But MLJ also saw the modern charismatic movement in his day as lacking since doctrine/repentance wasn't high on the list. I think he'd throw up if he saw what was happening now with the Word of Faith stuff....

Back to the point...

Reading the biography about Brother Yun (The Heavenly Man), and seeing unbelieveable miracles/signs in the midst of deep persecution that we in the West DO NOT go through. How do I reconcile that, are they from God or not? I am not sure I can do easily dismiss from a cessationist point of view that these are not real miracles.

Who am I to say the Lord has stopped doing anything when we in the West don't suffer like those who are in complete darkness. I cannot say that.

To be honest, I am not sure what I am asking and have been praying about it quite a bit.

I want to grow and mature, and for many years have been praying that the Spirit as "power" rather than a Person. Which I think is wrong on my part, and Chadwick's book has been helping me to think differently.

The question is does the baptism of the Holy Spirit, give a deeper insight into Who the Lord is (without seeking the power like people do for the wrong reasons)? Is it seperate from regeneration? Church historians/theologians have battled this for a long time. :)

wilkens21
Reading the biography about Brother Yun (The Heavenly Man), and seeing unbelievable miracles/signs in the midst of deep persecution that we in the West DO NOT go through. How do I reconcile that, are they from God or not? I am not sure I can do easily dismiss from a cessationist point of view that these are not real miracles.

Who am I to say the Lord has stopped doing anything when we in the West don't suffer like those who are in complete darkness. I cannot say that.

About your cessationist leaning... this is why I don’t believe in labels or boxes... because if God steps off the beaten path of our label, we’re lost!

Back to your point of no miracles in the west....I was reading a book by Mahesh Chavda on fasting and he said something that I have repeated several times to different people.... “People would ask him why God doesn’t do the miracles here in the west that He does in the third world countries and he said, ‘because the west has health insurance.’” You may not like the man himself but that statement is a profound and true statement... we have no need to seek God first because we run to the doctors.

And to me personally, America’s health care crisis has had me wondering if this crisis is not Obama’s doings but God’s doing... trying to re-center us again around Him. Everyone’s clamoring for health insurance when they should be clamoring around His cross and His word. If the Word of God is good enough to live by then it’s good enough to die by; correct?

wilkens21
The question is does the baptism of the Holy Spirit, give a deeper insight into Who the Lord is (without seeking the power like people do for the wrong reasons)? Is it separate from regeneration? Church historians/theologians have battled this for a long time. :)

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is a separate experience although it doesn’t have to be. Let me explain, I have heard of some who have been born again AND received the baptism of the Holy Spirit (with tongues) at the same time. But if you’ve already been born again and THEN have heard about it and you seek it, then to you it will be a separate experience.

wilkens21
Church historians/theologians have battled this for a long time. :)

These are just my experiences and what the Lord has shown me, I hope you receive all your answers from the Lord.
God bless you,
Lisa

Edited so hopefully it makes more sense!! LOL (

i believe men like weasly ,whitfield ,and edwards ,were cesasenists,,,,,but undoubtly experanced the baptism of the spirit ,revivel followed those men ,and they new the power of god

how i understand it is weasly believed in the seconed blessing , whitfied believed the seconed blessing was the true new birth ,and was realy the first true blessing ,,,,but denied certaint gifts of the holy spirit ,,,,that was the common stand ,was only to denie certaint miraculas and sign gifts

they didnt believe in toungs ,nor that a person could have a special gift of healing ,but they believed god could stil heal

well this is too my knowlage

iv never heard of a calvinist dening all of the gifts of the spirit

The thread question was-

Baptism of the Holy Spirit... should we ask for it?

Scripture Responds - If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to THOSE WHO ASK HIM? Luke 11:13 NIV

Simple enough isn't it?

If a person wants it... then they should ask for it!

Lysa is spot on concerning her thoughts on having experienced the Baptism in the Holy Spirit.

To quote Leonard Ravenhill on the same thought he often stated, " A person with an experience is never at the mercy of a person with an argument".

Blessings!

(caps mine for emphasis only - no yelling was intended)

may I suggest this as reading material on the subject

Straight to the point and sound for doctrine
should be mandatory reading for every true believer

Mortification by John Owen

http://www.oldlandmarks.com/owmortto.htm

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is a separate experience although it doesn’t have to be. Let me explain, I have heard of some who have been born again AND received the baptism of the Holy Spirit (with tongues) at the same time. But if you’ve already been born again and THEN have heard about it and you seek it, then to you it will be a separate experience.

If I remember correctly, she would instruct people BEFORE they got saved that they were going to say the sinner’s pray and then they would receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues or prophesy! And they would be saved and receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit!! I think she talks about it in her sermon “Chasing the Dragon Part 1 and 2.”

And I know personally of one who experienced this, my cousin gave his life to the Lord one minute and was speaking in tongues the next and worshiping the Lord!

I'm coming to believe that when we only provide ½ of God’s provisions for a new born babe, then ½ is what they’ll receive and shame on us if ½ is only what we give them.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=117

God bless,
Lisa

no it is for this thread also, after all that is the purpose for the Holy Spirit. So why would question the need for the Holy Spirit or segment HIS ways and means of accomplishing HIS purpose?

After all salvation is about conversion, being changed from Glory to Glory,taking up our cross and following HIM, death to all that is not HIM, and being conformed into HIS image.

Without the Spirit all one is left with is a deception of going some place.