Law Tithing VS. Spirit led giving?

sermonindex Nov 25, 2011

My general understanding about New covenant giving is that we are no longer under the mosaic law of tithing. We are now under the new covenant Law of Christ which is more of what ever I have is yours but I can also keep what I need to do with as I feel led by God to do.

I bring this up cuz recently in the church I currently attend the New pastor really comes off very legalistic about tithing. mentioning before the congregation that he signs the giving statements at the end of the year and would he after looking at this determine if someone was a tither or not.

This and a few other things have caused me to relook at the whole teaching in new testament giving vs. old testament tithing.

So any thoughts. Also does anyone know of any popular teachers/pastors who would advocate freedom from old testamnt tithe law??

T

twayneb Nov 25, 2011

thingsabove: I don't think I would be looking for popular teachers who advocate either position. Not that you might not get some good teaching on the topic. I think I would go back to the Word on the matter. There are a few places in the New Testament that deal with giving and/or tithing and whole books that deal with the law and the new covenant. There are some basics of the New Testament that I use to determine how I should give.

The born again believer has been freed from the law. We are no longer under law but under grace. Since tithing was a commandment of the law I must assume I am free from that commandment as well.

2 Corinthians 9:27 tells us the motive that should accompany giving. We should give as we determine in our heart, not due to emotional appeal (sadness or in the KJV begrudgingly), nor out of contraint (or because we must). To me this eliminates the law as it constrained us to give which would be consistent with Paul's teachings in the rest of the NT.

Hebrews 7 is the only place in the NT where we find tithing associated with any type of teaching. (The only other reference is in Matthew and is the boasting of a Pharisee.) In Heb. 7 the point is NOT a teaching on tithing but rather a teaching on the coming of a new priesthood, the Levitical priesthood being abolished and replaced with the coming of a new and better covenant. Tithing, interestingly enough, is used here as the example to clearly demonstrate the coming of the new priesthood. The point is NOT to demonstrate any kind of a NT tithing commandment but rather to demonstrate that there was another priesthood to whom Levi paid tithes and who blessed Levi. This shows that the Melchisedec priesthood superseded the Levitical priesthood and that Jesus is after the order of Melchisedec, His priesthood superseding that of Levi and thus being superior. The tithes that Abraham gave had nothing to do with law as the law was not yet. It had everything to do with Abraham purposing in his heart to give to God a tenth of the spoils of victory. I find it a bit amusing that the very scriptures that show the law and its ordinances being superseded by the covenant of grace is sometimes used to support the continuance of the tithing aspect of the law. ????

P

PaulWest Nov 25, 2011

Something the Lord spoke to me awhile back, when I was occupying myself with this same question was, "If you read the New Testament for the first time in your life, without any prior knowledge of the Old Testament, would you come away from the book with an inclination to give 10% of your money to me as a requirement, or observe the Sabbath as a requirement, or keep a certain feast or circumsize your children as requirements?"

I've never forgot it. I suddenly imagined myself a savage African tribesman in the early 19th century and some missionary handed me a New Testament in my own native tongue: The Gospel of Jesus Christ. Would I be inclined to systematically tithe after reading it? The answer is simple. God has made everything so simple in Christ Jesus; man mixes and obfuscates and unneccesarily complicates.

sermonindex Nov 25, 2011

I bring this up cuz recently in the church I currently attend the New pastor really comes off very legalistic about tithing. mentioning before the congregation that he signs the giving statements at the end of the year and would he after looking at this determine if someone was a tither or not.

Wow... this is a pathetic thing for a pastor to say. It's manipulation and it's intimidation in order to get people to act in a certain way. This certainly does not jive with what God says. God says everything we do should be motivated by our love for the Saviour.

Also does anyone know of any popular teachers/pastors who would advocate freedom from old testamnt tithe law??

I always find it interesting that televangelists and WOF preachers are VERY much teaching the law of the tithe... they have to! Otherwise their false teachings do not work. Isnt funny that when the gospel is not preached properly legalism ALWAYS fills the void?!

PAUL WEST... excellent word. You are right on target. I have always thought that someone from another culture who is totally foreign to the gospel and has not been conditioned all their life by the American church... would draw some conclusions about the NT that would be completely different from ours. I dont think they would all be correct, but I think most would be closer to the truth. Tithing being one of them. Instead of tithing... they would probably give and share everything.

Krispy

sermonindex Nov 25, 2011

Then the answer is simple. Give as God leads you to give. For those who are being led by the Spirit they are the sons of God. Also stay out of the Old Testsament and camp in the New. The Old Testament is the shadow. The New Testament is the reality of Christ. The Son of God is God's ultimate word.

For the brother who started this thread. Find another church. One where the grace of Jesus is lived out. If you stay where you are st you are looking st much heart ache and bondage. I speak from painful experience on that.

Blaine Scogin

sermonindex Nov 25, 2011

Also stay out of the Old Testsament and camp in the New.

This is the only thing I would disagree with. Everything is the Word of God:

2 Tim 3:16-17 "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

The answer is not to avoid the OT, for thru the OT we gain a rich understanding of the NT. The answer is to understand the OT in it's proper context, and to find Christ in it... because He is there!

I cringe whenever someone says to stick with the NT only. Some people, particularly new Christians, take that to heart... and because they follow that advise they rob themselves of a thorough understanding of Jesus and the gospel.

The whole Bible is God's redemptive history. We need it all. What we need is proper understanding, not avoiding.

Krispy

T

twayneb Nov 25, 2011

Quote:
Also stay out of the Old Testsament and camp in the New.
This is the only thing I would disagree with. Everything is the Word of God:

Krispy is so right to disagree. A thorough understanding of the OT is so vitally important. We do not live under the old covenant, but that does not mean that we abandon the old testament for the new. We simply do not live according to the law any more.

sermonindex Nov 25, 2011

thanks for the unified response. I appreciate the collective wisdom. I had hoped that there might be a few "respected" preachers from the mainstream that I might be able to refer to in addition to the scriptures of course. but in the end we must rest on the simplicity of our Lord Jesus Christ and the Apostles!!

Also regarding the OT, these to scriptures often pop in my mind in addition to the Timothy scripture.

1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. {ensamples: or,

Ro 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

Thanks again.

C

Christinyou Nov 25, 2011

"""Quote:

Also stay out of the Old Testsament and camp in the New.

This is the only thing I would disagree with. Everything is the Word of God:"""

The Old Testament does not fulfill the Word of God. Only Christ in Paul with His message, "MY GOSPEL" revealed to Paul who was chosen from his mothers womb, Quote:
Col: 1: 25-29. The mystery even in the old testament unto Paul. The mystery hidden from all, until revealed to Paul, Col 1:26. The MYSTERY, Christ in man, born again in the believer by the incorruptable Seed of the Father, which is "Christ in you the hope of glory" Col 1: 27.

There is no life in the old testament, the Life in Christ can only come after the Cross, In Him, and In the plan of God for His own birthed children, not revealed until Paul, even Chosen before the foundation of the world. Eph 1:4

The old sinful lawbreaker was killed with Christ, yet here I am, yet not I but Christ who lives in me, which life I now live by His Faith and Life in me. Gal 2: 16-20.

In Christ, new life in me: Phillip

"Behold all things have become new"

sermonindex Nov 25, 2011

Hebrews 10:1
The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming----not the realities themselves.

Colossians 3:17
These are a shadow of the things that were to come, the reality, however, is found in Christ.

The two verses above describe the Old Testament as a shadow of the reality of Christ. Now Jesus has come. We are in him. He lives in us. The New Testament describes Jesus as the final revlation of God. That being said the believer in Christ needs onky the Holy Spirit and the New Testament to guide him.

This is such beautiful simplicicity.

Blaine

sermonindex Nov 26, 2011

It's truly amazing to me at times how people can so completely misunderstand what I am saying on here.

Nevermind.

Krispy

C

Christinyou Nov 26, 2011

""Quote:

Also stay out of the Old Testsament and camp in the New.

This is the only thing I would disagree with. Everything is the Word of God:""

True the whole Word of God is the Old and the New Testament. Is their life in Christ in the Old? If we had nothing but the Word of God given by Paul, would we have a life giving Gospel?

The old shows me no matter what I do, I cannot please God. That is why God chose me in Christ before the foundation of the world. I cannot acquire salvation by what I do. The old is God breathed, and the new is life and peace in Christ Jesus in giving me life in the life that is birthed in me.

Sorry Krispy you get frurstrated, that is not my intent, but life and peace in Christ Jesus who is my life. Yes Christ is in the old, if not there is no understanding and the Jews still don't get it, they knowing the old better than anyone, but what and how we are to live in Christ is in the new, come by the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus and baptized into One Spirit taught by the Holy indwelling Spirit of promise given to Paul to fulfill the Word of God.

In Christ: Phillip

S

SHMILY Nov 26, 2011

This topic always makes me smile. That is because the implication ~ at least to me ~ seems we are willing to "present our bodies a living sacrifice" (Rom 12:1) to Him but we sure don't want Him near our money. ;)

One of my grandsons used to call me and say, "Grammy, do you have time to look up some lyrics. They're suppose to be a Christian band ....." Bottom line, satan was whispering "Did God really say ..." and Devin wondered how close he could get his big hairy toe to the line without crossing it. (He has since had a strong Christian man come along side to mentor him through the Word and using Paul Washer sermons and Henry Blackaby writings etc. and he is making wiser choices on his own.)

Hm-m-m ... what does God desire now??

Zac Poonen has a good message that covered this. I am sorry I do not remember the name of it but it was about the difference between the old and new covenants.

He speaks of what the Lord required in the old and what is different in the new. I will try to give the related gist of that message but if you or someone else can find it it would be clearer.

He reminds us we are to be "bond-slaves" of Jesus Christ. As a bond slave our life is not our own. Nothing we have is ours. Even our money is not ours. In the OC one day ~ the sabbath ~ was required. NC all of our time is His to direct. How much do I really need for me? Am I redeeming the time? OC was a tithe about 10% ~ however when the various required offerings were added it was closer to 25% I think. NC it is all His so how much do I really need for me and how much is for His work? Jesus said He was about the Father's work and so are we to be both with body and resources.

The Pharisee's tithed even their kitchen herbs. The widow gave all. Which one am I closer to being like???

Re: OT/NT You cannot really understand the new without the old. The old tells of God and who He is and how strongly He feels about sin and about His name. It is the beginning of the story of Jesus... The first church only had the OT to work with until the other letters and gospels were written and distributed. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Be blessed!

REJOICE! =)

Mary

sermonindex Nov 26, 2011

In his famous work, Lectures to My Students, Spurgeon writes, “Don’t you know, young man, that from every town and every village and every hamlet in England, wherever it may be, there is a road to London? So from every text of Scripture (Old and New) there is a road to Christ. And my dear brother, your business is, when you get to a text, to say, now, what is the road to Christ?"

Krispy

sermonindex Nov 26, 2011

2 Tim 3:16-17 "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

When PAUL wrote this he was talking about the old testament. period. So I would encourage those who say I only need New testament to be carefull of judging other s who find the fullfilling of what Paul says above!.

When Paul was rebuking the corinthians for saying "I am of Paul, I am of appolis I am of Christ he declared is Christ divided??"

In the same way when we say I am of New testament ONLY we are doing what Paul warned not to do.

When we read the old we read it in light of the new. But read the old we should cuz PAUL said to!!!

So if Paul tells Timothy to tell everyone else in the churches to do this then it applies to us as well.
Otherwise we are now creating a new teachng outside of scripture similiar to trying to uphold Tithing laws for the new covenant.

Now finally, If you only want to read New Testament (edit add, NT "ONLY") then Lord bless you and keep you for your choice. However, please acknowledge your fellow brothers being correct in reading the OT and recieving blessing from God in it!!

C

Christinyou Nov 26, 2011

There is no denying, there is nothing in the whole Word of God that is not profitable. But when I get to London, why would I want to go back to towns, villiages and hamlets.

Hebrews 6:1 says it plainly; "Let us go on into perfection"

Now that I am in London, lets learn how we now live.

I live in Christ now and He is the only city on the hill I want to know about.

In Christ: Phillip

S

staff Nov 26, 2011

Hi,I think your point on "bond servant" is very good.
This scripture came to mind on the subject.
Christians who tithe often say that the consequences of not tithing is not being blessed financially,however the scripture below says that its "faith" and "seeking gods kingdom and his righteousness" and all things will be added.Could anyone comment on this thanks staff

Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is , and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? 31 Therefore take no thought , saying , What shall we eat ? or, What shall we drink ? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed ? 32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek :) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. 33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. 34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

L

Lysa Nov 26, 2011

thingsabove wrote:
So any thoughts. Also does anyone know of any popular teachers/pastors who would advocate freedom from old testamnt tithe law??

Are you kidding??!! I don’t know of ANY “popular” teachers/pastors that would advocate pay-as-you-go!! They usually have huge debt and buildings they have to make payments on and giving the sheep freedom doesn’t work in their favor.

These churches experiment in ways to get more money, at least the one I went to did because a few years back I was in on the ‘worship planning’ committee and at the time this church had big boxes in the back of the church for offerings and they started experimenting in different ways to see which brought in more money and talking about it at the meetings....like standing up for offering, sitting down for offering, or the box in the back. They eventually got rid of the boxes in the back.

They started out trusting in the Lord with the boxes in the back but it came down to trying to get more money out of people. They found they got more money by passing around the plate but even MORE money if they could get the men to stand up, that gave the men better access to their wallets ($2000 a week MORE) and that they needed to preach on tithing at least two times a year but hopefully four times and at these times they really looked for people to give a testimony about how paying tithes has blessed them.

If I ever go back to church, I’m not getting involved in leadership planning meetings, it’s very discouraging to listen to them.

God bless,
Lisa

sermonindex Nov 26, 2011

These churches experiment in ways to get more money, at least the one I went to did because a few years back I was in on the ‘worship planning’ committee and at the time this church had big boxes in the back of the church for offerings and they started experimenting in different ways to see which brought in more money and talking about it at the meetings....like standing up for offering, sitting down for offering, or the box in the back. They eventually got rid of the boxes in the back.

Yep... been there seen that!

Krispy

T

twayneb Nov 27, 2011

The reality is that we live in a world where money is the medium of exchange and to effectively do the work of the ministry we are going to have to use money. However when we begin to see people as our source of supply we get ourselves into trouble. God is our source. He will use obedient people as the means of channeling the supply to us, but He alone remains the source. When we see people as the source we are often tempted toward manipulation of people. When we see God as the source we are forced onto our face before Him to seek Him for His will. Remember how God had a place called "there" for Elijah. He said, "Go to the brook Cherith for there is where I have provided for you." If we are in the center of God's will He will supply. The trick is to put ourselves in the center of His will in whatever ministry it is. If we are doing His thing He will supply.

I do recall hearing a minister say that if we all gave according to the New Testament model that we would see a lot of unfruitful ministries die and a lot of fruitful ones thrive. We would give where the Spirit of God directed us to and do it joyfully. If my heart is in tune with the Holy Spirit then I believe "where I purpose in my heart" will be where God also purposes that I give. I thought it a really good perspective.