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'Christian' conduct

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crsschk Jan 8, 2005

Took the following from another thread Amy Wilson Carmichael - If and hope you will forgive me brother for doing so, but thought it warranted it's own discussion.Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------If I find myself taking lapses for granted, "Oh, that's what they always do," "Oh, of course she talks like that, he acts like that," then I know nothing of Calvary love. (Amy Carmichael)--------------------------------------------------------------------------------That one hits close to home. Among unbelievers, particularly some of my coworkers whom I've gotten fairly used to, I'm sometimes in an awkward position when one of them blasphemes or says something vulgar or otherwise sins gratuitously. I can confront them, albeit in as prideless a way as possible, not necessarily kind, but not in such a way as to provoke them to think I'm claiming to be better, as that is not the issue, or I can ignore it (typically praying silently or in a nearly inaudible voice). In justifying the latter, I sometimes think along the lines of "They're unbelievers, that's what unbelievers do," not as a means of excusing the behavior, but as a reason for not taking them before the Judgment seat for every manifestation of their sin.How ought a Christian conduct themselves in such an environment? Personally, following you on the latter as well. "(typically praying silently or in a nearly inaudible voice)".('Forgive them for they know not what they do', 'Open their eye's') A number of things come to mind.Mat 12:32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him;Wondering, does this apply?How did the Lord respond to those 'types' of situations? Not thinking the Pharisees necessarily, but more along say, the woman caught in adultery.Something I also have mused on before was the auto-reflex and oddly ironic use of taking the Lords name in vain. Even had a dream about this last night, though the details are fuzzy. The big two, that always make me squirm, used to often say "What's God got to do with it?" when attached to the rest of the clause. And Jesus Christ, said in that inflection... isn't it odd that of all the names that could be used that unbelievers would choose this as a practically auto response in their anger?Can see where some of this might go already and hope that there is some patience. Certainly it depends on any number of factors and keying in on in this environment will go a long way in keeping this in perspective, though expanding it to other areas should be fruitful.Will just add that the Christians that left a lasting memory and impact in those days of prodigal living were the ones that said little or nothing. It was there conduct and the Holy Spirit that did the convicting. That's a bit off topic already, but ...

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InTheLight Jan 8, 2005

Will just add that the Christians that left a lasting memory and impact in those days of prodigal living were the ones that said little or nothing. It was there conduct and the Holy Spirit that did the convicting. That's a bit off topic already, but ...Keith Daniel speaks to this topic a bit in his sermon titled Holy Spirit which can be downloaded from this site. In it he says that too often Christians try to do the work of the Holy Spirit in convicting men of sin, righteousness, and judgment. There are times for rebuke and there are times to be silent and there is always time to live blameless before others in the strenght of the Spirit and let Him do the "talking" as it were.I highly recommend this sermon.In Christ,Ron

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philologos Jan 8, 2005

Took the following from another thread Amy Wilson Carmichael - Ifand hope you will forgive me brother for doing so, but thought it warranted it's own discussion.Hi Mike, I'm glad you have taken up Keith's question. I have returned to his post several times but thought I would wait a little to give others a chance to say something.I think there is a difference between witness and evangelism. The first is testimony to Christ Himself, the second it testimony to those who have not heard. The controlling thought in witness is loyalty to Jesus Christ; the controlling thought in evangelism is more likely to me love for the lost. When I say 'a difference' I don't mean that the two ideas have to be put into watertight compartments or that we get stuck with 'should I witness here or evangelise'.I think witness is valid in the workplace; I am not so sure about evangelism. I listened recently to Keith Daniel speaking about the Holy Spirit, and first chapter for his 'up and coming book' "How not to witness". I think it is very easy for us to get dragged into a mission to 'reform the office' or into 'improvement of public behaviour'. Of course, neither of those is our commission.Our commission/promise/prediction is that having received the empowering Spirit 'you will be witnesses unto me'... I do firmly believe that this is a spiritual inevitability rather than a promise or a command. Living in the enabling of God' spirit will inevitably mean than in some way we are 'sent out' and that in that place we will 'be witnesses to Jesus Christ'. This is not the same as street preaching which is evangelism.From 1997 to 2002 I felt a call to 'reconnect with ordinary life'. I spent time working for an international bank as part of its core team on the Y2K project. I had spent the previous 25 years is various forms of full-time Christian work. From the security of my study I was launched into the Dilbert world of Project Management and constant meetings with very high executives in the financial world. It was thrilling. Just to 'be a witness' in the office. I have now returned to my real love but there is part of that hostile environment that I miss deeply. I never rebuked anyone for swearing or telling dirty jokes, but I had senior executives who would apologise to me when they swore! I recall the turnover to 2000 when they asked me to office manage one of the shifts at the Head Office where we were coordinating the efforts of the bank in over 60 countries. "People" said my manager "feel safer when you're around". In my heart I bowed and said 'thank you, Lord. they don't know it but they're touching God in this office'. God took our family through a deep personal tragedy during this time and office colleagues saw God at work there too. They saw our tears but they also glimpsed the Rock on which we were standing. The whole experience was a profound privilege. I think in terms of our work colleagues the word is probably 'be witnesses' rather than 'evangelise'.

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crsschk Jan 8, 2005

Sigh...Inadvertently clicked on something and lost miles of words, so if this is long you should have seen...I think witness is valid in the workplace; I am not so sure about evangelism.A great summarization and I concur.From 1997 to 2002 I felt a call to 'reconnect with ordinary life'. I spent time working for an international bank as part of its core team on the Y2K project. I had spent the previous 25 years is various forms of full-time Christian work. From the security of my study I was launched into the Dilbert world of Project Management and constant meetings with very high executives in the financial world. And for the Readers Digest version...My, have you touched on just where I find myself presently, albeit with a twist. From blue collar worker with permanently attached headphones pumping in copious amounts of sermons and Gods Word... to the world of Dilbert and cubicle living, talk about 'culture shock'! :-D Thought before I had at least some inkling of what I was doing, now I am clueless. Certainly can relate being in this corporate structure, all the foreign language and bemusement of one long endless meeting, wondering why they say 'in a meeting'? Isn't it just that in reality you are only on a break from the same one, pretty sure it's just one... ;-) But I hardly know a fraction of it, on the outside looking in for the most part, still assimilating to this culture and am more than lost often times translating...Oh, for what it's worth, facilities, kind of the everything all at once and then some.It was thrilling. Just to 'be a witness' in the office. I have now returned to my real love but there is part of that hostile environment that I miss deeply. I never rebuked anyone for swearing or telling dirty jokes, but I had senior executives who would apologise to me when they swore! I recall the turnover to 2000 when they asked me to office manage one of the shifts at the Head Office where we were coordinating the efforts of the bank in over 60 countries. "People" said my manager "feel safer when you're around". That's the bottom line, that 'unaware', being just ...being. Rat's, lost all the profound thoughts I had earlier :-? ...Do want to finish the thought though;In my heart I bowed and said 'thank you, Lord. they don't know it but they're touching God in this office'. God took our family through a deep personal tragedy during this time and office colleagues saw God at work there too. They saw our tears but they also glimpsed the Rock on which we were standing. The whole experience was a profound privilege. I think in terms of our work colleagues the word is probably 'be witnesses' rather than 'evangelise'. Wow, Ron I could not imagine what that difficult time was like. And to concur once again with the latter point I guess I just want to be a leaky vessel, leaving that trail of Him even without a word. I know this has come up often in my musings about here and the whole 'fear of man' thing is becoming less and less of an issue, it's not that at all. Being that I have been much absorbed and fascinated lately with the life and writings of Oswald Chambers, will let him speak here. Only to add that this resonates so much within me I couldn't begin to tell;Diary, 26 April 1896: The Holy Spirit must anoint me for the work, fire me, and so vividly convince me that such and such a way is mine to aim at, or I shall not go, I will not, I dare not; I shall just be content to earn my living—but, no, that cannot be. From my very childhood the persuasion has been that of a work, strange and great, an experience deep and peculiar, it has haunted me ever and ever. It spoke clearly to me about my coming here and I came, but now the mists have risen and chase and seethe up all through my soul and nothing is distinct.There seems to be a great flood-tide bearing me out and all voices grow fainter. I am afraid I am too sordid and earthly for God to speak to and inspire; but I will wait for a heavenly vision in this matter. No man by mere high human wisdom would dare undertake a step for Jesus’ sake unless he knows that the Holy Spirit has directly spoken to him; and until He comes, I shall not go.Here is the lamb and the wood, but where is the fire? Nothing but the fire of the most Holy Spirit of God can make the offering holy and unblamable and acceptable in His sight.Chambers, O. 1958; 2002. Abandoned to God. Marshall Morgan and ScottHere's another;In Chambers’ estimation, John Cameron was a man who matched the mountain where he lived. The rugged old bachelor lived simply and gave the bulk of his income to the Lord’s work. Cameron entertained hospitably and prayed as regularly and naturally as the sunrise. During one of Chambers’ visits, he and Cameron were out shooting rabbits, accompanied by two dogs. When they reached a heather knoll, the old man suggested they stop for a while and pray.“We knelt down and he led in prayer,” Chambers wrote of the occasion. “Then I began to pray, but the young collie dog, who had been perfectly quiet during the old man’s prayer, imagined I was meant for nothing but to play with him, and he started careering around, pawing me all over, licking my face and yelping with delight.” Cameron rose from his knees, sternly took the dog by the neck and said, “Hoot, hoot, I will sit on the dog while you pray.” And he did.A few days later, Cameron took Chambers aside and said, “If you get permission to speak to my ploughman about his soul, do so.” Oswald expressed surprise that Cameron had not spoken to the man himself, because he had watched the old farmer speak about Jesus to all sorts of people.“My laddie,” Cameron replied, “if you don’t know what the permission of the Holy Ghost is in talking to a soul about salvation, you know nothing about the Holy Ghost.”Chambers pondered the remark on the train back to Glasgow. How much did he know of the Holy Spirit and His power? He had asked in faith to be filled, but it seemed that nothing had happened. Was he holding something back from God?He wrote to Chrissie saying he felt compelled by God to go solitary, for the time being, and shut himself up alone to God and his studies. “I hear the imperative command of my own inner soul,” he told her, “ ‘cut every tie and wait.’ Shall I obey or disobey?” Chambers, O. 1958; 2002. Abandoned to God. Marshall Morgan and ScottLost much of my earlier train of thought, might have to revisit later to see if this makes any sense. But most gracious thanks Ron, much I can relate to here in all this.

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phebebird Jan 8, 2005

Boy, did God know I needed to see this today?!!Am under conviction right now. I am usually the calming presence at work, but yesterday I really blew my lid. I recall with shame a few lines about "Stop pestering the charge nurse (me)!" "Leave me alone!" and "I've had it with all of you guys, stop bugging me and do your own jobs!" It was such a horrible day, with a storm outside that always seems to send a million patients into labor or at least running into labor and delivery with conditions ranging from a cough to kidney infections. Everyone was cranky and we all started to climb on each others nerves towards the end of the twelve hour shift. Isn't this exactly when I should have been drawing on my Strength, my Source, and my Peace? Instead, I was as cranky as anyone and let it show... They all know I'm a Christian. In situations like this, I just pray that I have not permanently ruined my witness.I agree with you guys about witnessing versus evangelism. There is a place for both, but I don't think that correcting people about swearing, etc, is usually called for (unless the Holy Spirit leads specifically otherwise). We don't want our coworkers to be good, clean people--we want them to have an encounter with the living God! Jesus hung out with the sinners, not the religious people when He was here on earth...Phebe

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philologos Jan 8, 2005

From time to time my posts have taken me close to this territory but each time I have turned back to protect readers. I have felt badly about doing this as though I was shutting the door on folks I really wanted to welcome.Sometimes conversations have moved in this direction and I have closed them down. (ZekeO, if you're reading, one was with you. My apologies.) I never wanted to shut people out but I suppose like many of my race I am essentially quite a private person. My last posts on this thread have some unfinished references... and drew out kindnesses that I think deserve a fuller explanation.Anyway, I feel we are family and I don't want to hide from you... This website was created by my two sons; once there were three... Tim Bailey.If you should ever have to walk this valley, you will surely find Jesus there.

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phebebird Jan 9, 2005

Wow, Ron...I looked at the website. What a guy he must have been... Strangely enough, I find comfort in your last words. It is every parent's worst nightmare to lose a child, and yet, to hear you say that even then, Jesus was there. He is so good. There is no Valley of Death that He will not go through with us...PhebePS. Where in Africa were those pictures from?

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crsschk Jan 9, 2005

Dear Ron,Came back here earlier today and have since then been struggling to find words, there are none that I know. This will hardly express well what I wish it could.When a dear friend and family member brings out something of this magnitude...I understand your hesitancy and yet also am glad that you did share this with us, that we can share with you in even just a small way the cry of your heart.A tremendous man you are sir.My heart is with you and my prayers.I am truly sorry Ron..., again thank you for allowing us to be part of your life in this way, that is a fine tribute you all have done for your son, I look forward to meeting him.

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philologos Jan 9, 2005

PS. Where in Africa were those pictures from?South Africa.

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