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Where are the unschooled ordinary men?

sermonindex Dec 3, 2011

We read in Acts 4:13 that Peter and John were unschooled, ordinary men. Yet the Jewish leadership took note they had been with Jesus. Even Jesus was theologically uneducated by the standards of his day. The question was asked of him how this man got such learning without having studied (Jn.7:15). Jesus responded that his teaching came from the Father who sent him.

Yet I get the impression that there is a disdain for the average person who walks with Jesus. It is only the theological scholar that is respected. Even in this forum.

I find it interesting that those who are making the most impact for the kingdom are the common, ordinary people. Would that I woukd be a common, ordinary man and stay close to Jesus.

Blaine Scogin

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rookie Dec 3, 2011

I have found that Calvary Chapel is blessed with many, many unschooled ordained pastors.

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staff Dec 3, 2011

hi Martyr,
In what way do you think the unschooled are not considered the same as in Acts?

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staff Dec 3, 2011

hi Rookie,
Is that not a contradiction "ordained" and "unschooled" or not?What schooling do you have attain before you can be ordained?
Yours Staff

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Yeshuasboy Dec 3, 2011

I think it was Richard Baxter who said something like, "although you need the knowledge of Christ to be saved, you don't need the knowledge of a theologian."
Christ comes by way of revelation to the soul.
The law is the schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, and Christ puts that law in our hearts.
The heart must be plowed, weeded, and gardened properly that the good seed spring forth to everlasting life, and bear much fruit for the glory of God. Watch over your heart with all diligence.
"If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God... (James 1:5).
"And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing." - 1 Cor 13:2
"Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tonggues, they shall cease; whether there bbe knowledge, it shall vanish away." - 1Cor 13:8
If you seek Christ and find Him, then you really do have all things, regardless of what the world says, the flesh, or the devil.

sermonindex Dec 4, 2011

Actually, it's more like unlearned men who have been taught by the Holy Ghost.

Though that doesn't have much weight. There have been unlearned, unschooled men who have made shipwreck of many and also have introduced crazy teachings.

Paul was a learned man, Acts 22:3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.

So it's not unschooled men that we should be looking for, rather men and women who are sold out whether they be noble, learned, unlearned, nobodies, weak and base, and have the Spirit of Almighty God residing in them.

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Sree Dec 4, 2011

I completely agree with this point. Jesus did not go to any Bible School nor did Peter. It is not Bible Scholars that are to be given the elder-ship in Church, but the one whose is able to live like Christ should be given.
Even Paul himself though he is a trained teacher of Law, he considers it worthless compared to the knowledge of Christ.

sermonindex Dec 4, 2011

dearest Blaine, you wrote:

Yet I get the impression that there is a disdain for the average person who walks with Jesus. It is only the theological scholar that is respected. Even in this forum.

indeed. 'even on this forum'....hear me, any religiostic 'disdain' recieved from another 'jar of clay'...REJOICE!......and i'm not speaking of just being 'divisive' for the sake of being divisive in order to stir the well of disdain....no, but if the Lord Jesus Christ in His Earthly Ministry was disdained by the religious establishment of His day...what would ANY humble worm of Christ expect from the religious establishment of this day?

two examples, David Brainerd, a 25 year old follower of Jesus, who was both dying of TB, and would today be diagnosed with severe depression (probably leading to his disqualification as a missionary) gets bounced from Yale Seminary because he let his mouth get ahead of him, said the dean had about much grace as a chair...so David goes out into the frontier, circa 1742, alone, preaching the Gospel, hacking blood, dying, eating crummy food, contending with lonliness, yet continues to pray and witness to the Indians, and at Crossweeksung NJ, God comes down in revival....you should read some of the SOARING accounts of Indians, who came to a saving Knowledge of Jesus Christ, its in his journals, the "Life of Brainerd"...STILL in print today!

or Duncan Campbell....who's sermons are on this very website...listen to his testimony...severely wounded in WW1, has a Baptism of the Holy Ghost while dying in the flesh, recovers for a year, goes back to Scotland, and with another brother from Ireland, led by the Spirit, goes out in the crofts and roads of Scotland, "just talking about Jesus"...and God came down in the Mid-Arglyd revival of 1921...then Duncan says he made a terrible mistake, he decided "to go in for the ministry"...meaning seminary, where he fell under the sway of "professors', who got him to start down a road of "17 years of barreness", by doubting Genesis 3.

i'm not making this up.

finally, you wrote:


I find it interesting that those who are making the most impact for the kingdom are the common, ordinary people. Would that I woukd be a common, ordinary man and stay close to Jesus.


may that prayer be answered in Jesus' Name, neil

Blaine---later addition, here's the link to an article that John Piper wrote on David Brainerd in 1990. When i came to Jesus, it was one of the first things i stumbled upon, Thank God, and it just lit me on fire, AND compelled me to seek out the actual journals of Brainerd

http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/biographies/oh-that-i-may-never-loiter-on-my-heavenly-journey

sermonindex Dec 5, 2011

I get what all are saying, and God will use a man as He sees fit... some uneducated and some PhD's. Stop looking at either one.

I have to laugh tho when people lump Jesus in as being "uneducated".

Seriously? You're going to call the Creator of the world, the Almighty God, the omnipotent One... God Himself... uneducated?

While Jesus grew and matured in human form as we all do, He had the knowledge of God within Him because He WAS God. Let's remember that He was completely man... AND completely GOD. The hypostatic union of God and man in Jesus did not elevate His manhood, and it did not decrease His God-hood.

So please stop saying that He was uneducated. He did not require education. That is NOT the same as John or Paul or Peter or anyone else. When you do that you take away from His diety.

The Pharisees called him uneducated, but they also called Him a drunkard and a glutton. None of those things were true.

Krispy

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Sidewalk Dec 5, 2011

Jesus spoke to the "educated" men of His day and spoke of their zeal for missionary service. They would "travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte and turn him into twice the son of Hell" that they were. Matthew 23 is a scathing critique of educated men, men without fruit.

When I meet Christians, I care much less about what they know, much more whether there is tender love for Jesus present. The sweet aroma of that fellowship- oooh, it smells good in some people despite their education.

It has taken me way too many years to realize that no one has their doctrine perfected like mine... I jest of course.

Something happened to me that was surprising. Years ago I was on a short term mission trip to Guatemala. The reception and love we got from the Roman Catholics there was phenomenal, the protestants (like most of us were) were cool and some actually unfriendly. And hearing Mother Theresa describe her love for Jesus I got goosebumps! Yet the doctrines of the Roman church which seem crazy to me were not the currency of her witness.

I guess I still have a lot to learn..?

And by the way- I have very little formal Theological education!

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SolaVeritas Dec 5, 2011

This is a topic which has been causing much grief to my husband and myself in recent years. For several good reasons we believe the Lord wants us to serve Him with our lives and we were excited to leave much of our old lives behind and say, "Here I am. Send me wherever you want me to go. You may do with me as you please". It was then we found out that Christian organisations will not partner with us because we're not ordained. We can not serve in prison chaplancy, as house parents to troubled teens or work for a Christian relief agency because we have no BA of sorts. Never mind twenty years of active church work, Bible study leading, preaching and teaching. No one has bothered to contact the references and ask, "Is this brother a godly man? Is he led by the Spirit? Is his doctrine sound? Does he submit to authority?"

So it is either work on the secular job and serve a little on the side or go to Bible school for four years. If you're fifty years old, that is not an easy decision. Now is this right? People are hired for such positions when they have the right papers even tough they may not even truly know the Lord. I believe that is how much heresy has entred the church. We give more credentials to men made qualifications than to the testimony of the Holy Spirit. A man ought to be called into a Christian ministry position after fasting and prayer by those in charge, not after having looked over his resumee and decided he had the most points.

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ccchhhrrriiisss Dec 5, 2011

I would like to point out that "unlearned" or "uneducated" from the time of Christ was very different than the concepts today.

"Education" as it exists today in a metered form -- even theological -- was not truly available at that time. Most vocational trades were learned through apprenticeships (and often from family members). This is a "form" of education; but, students learned from their master (Luke 6:40).

There were no "schools" that taught fishing, carpentry, weaving, or even math (for collecting taxes). In fact, there weren't any "degrees" either. Children were taught how to read and write by parents and, whenever possible, synagogues (taught by rabbis). Most rabbis taught directly from the Scriptures, along with reading, writing, history, ethics and law, for the purpose of a moral education. However, such things were not mandatory or even common among all believers.

However, theology was a different thing altogether. People didn't typically "choose" to become educated in theology. Those who were "learned" as "Pharisees" were typically chosen (or inducted) from prominent families (or bright pupils from the synagogues) and were presented with what was understood to be a lifelong commitment.

Most children who attended synagogues throughout their childhood ended their education by the time they were involved in a trade or apprenticeship. This age varied according to the economic needs of the child or his family. A few...and very few...were able to continue their education into adulthood and were chosen to join sects.

There were different sects at the time with varying levels of learning commitment. Some sects, like the Essenes, literally separated their followers into a monastery-like priesthood environment. Scribes were also selected to lifelong commitments that resembled vocations in Law or script.

In the passage from Acts (Acts 4:13) mentioned in the first post, I take it to mean that the men who were confronting Peter and John were astonished because they weren't "educated" in the sense as they were (via committed sectarian education) -- yet they were very astute when it came to knowing the Scriptures well enough to "preach it" (Acts 4:8-12). This was, of course, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit (Acts 4:8).

However, the apostles were obviously "educated" in the sense that they were able to read and write. Most of them held to particular trade vocations (fishing, carpentry, tax collectors, etc...).

I would like to inject that there was no Scriptural prohibition against education. The problem is when people become clones or slaves of a theology or ideology. In fact, you could argue that many churches (including their Sunday Schools) have become nothing more than indoctrination centers that present interpretations of doctrine rather than pure Scripture. Instead of focusing on the Word of God as a whole (like the early synagogues), they have focused on the list of "essential truths" as agreed upon and presented by the denomination or local group of pastors and board members.

I would also like to say that one of the most important things that you are taught by good professors at the modern university level is NOT to believe everything that you read or are told. Rather, you are pushed to make an effort to discover truth for yourself. Education is not about sitting in a classroom and regurgitating information that you are presented. It is about looking at what you are taught and then digging deeper to see if it is truth. While there is some recitation that you are tested over, much of a formal education lay in the realm of discovery.

This "search" for knowledge is reflected in the mottos of some of the oldest educational institutions in the United States. Harvard's motto is "Veritas" ("Truth") -- which happens to be the most common element in university mottos. Yale's motto is "Lux et veritas" ("Light and Truth"). Princeton's motto is "Dei sub numine viget" ("Under God's Power she Flourishes"). Dartmouth's motto is "Vox clamantis in deserto" ("A Voice of one crying out in the Wilderness"). Columbia University's motto is "In lumine Tuo videbimus lumen" ("In Thy Light shall we see the light"). Brown University's motto is "In Deo Speramus" ("In God We Hope"). Penn's motto is "Leges sine moribus vanae" ("Laws without morality are useless").

Sadly, most of these universities have rejected both their religious heritage and their encouragement to seek "truth." However, the best students are those who are willing to question what they are taught and diligently search for the truth of a matter. This is reflected in the Bereans' attitude when it came to the Apostle Paul (Acts 17:11).

Anyway, I hope that I didn't distract too much from the central theme of this discussion. I do agree that God doesn't need "theologians" who simply go to school, recite information that they are taught and then suppose that they "know God." As we all know, the essence of this life is to know Jesus Christ.

It doesn't take a degree in theology or a semester in a seminary to know God and introduce Him to others. It simply takes a person spending intimate and honest time with Him and His Word each and every day. It takes decreasing to the point that Christ -- in the truth and simplicity that even a child would long for -- is what people get from us when we share the Gospel.

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Sidewalk Dec 5, 2011

SolaV, you might like a book by Fern Willner who with husband Charles wanted to be missionaries to Africa. No mission board would "hire" them, and they finally got to their destination with $5.00. Fern had several children over there, Charles literally beat the bushes leading whomever he could find to Christ. It became their life, and though Fern has gone home Charles still serves.

It is a compelling story, two people with a God-given desire, sustained by miracle after miracle. The title is "When Faith is enough."

You are not the first to be "rejected" for mission service. For those who won't take no for an answer, this is how God gets to do it with you by His own power. Be careful to call on God for whatever is there to do, sometimes the ones He needs you to show His Son are in unlikely encounters!

I appreciate that your heart wants these things!

sermonindex Dec 5, 2011

Again, I understand where people are coming from but we must also be very careful that we dont disdain what God has called some people to do... which may have been to become educated. We enter into a class warfare of sorts when we allow that to happen.

Also, I have seen a disturbing trend even on here of people relishing in their ignorance. By that I mean they make claims of not being interested in doctrine and theology and mocking those who are. Almost reciting the Beatles song "All You Need Is Love" word for word...

No, what we need is balance.

The funny thing about these people that rail against theology and doctrine is that they come here and wax on about all manner of things pertaining to God and the Bible and not realizing that that is what the very definition of theology is! How you think about God IS theology!

Anyway, there is a place for both. There are many great men of God who have strong educational backgrounds and thank God for them! We NEED them! I say we need them more than ever before. The church in America is weak because of many things, and IGNORANCE is one of them.

On the flip, I completely get the frustration of those who are blocked from doing what they believe the Lord has called them to do because they do not hold a particular degree. I will say this tho... if the Lord has called you to do something He WILL make a way. With or without a degree.

There are many well educated theologians who do not know God... and there are many uneducated goats in the pews who have no business going anywhere near a pulpit.

But when God puts a call on a man or womans heart to serve Him He will make it happen. It may not be how you envision it... and you WILL have hurdles to jump... but He does not call people that He does not intend to use.

Krispy

sermonindex Dec 5, 2011

double post. sorry!

Krispy

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Solomon101 Dec 5, 2011

To pick up on the line Krispy has thrown out about balance....

It is true that most (not all) of the apostles were "uneducated" in the commentaries that had been written by the Pharisees as well as the higher level of education that the Pharisees and rabbis had attained to. It is also true that VERY FEW ever attained that level of head knowledge. They had memorized virtually the entirety of what we know as the "Old Testament" . All of the Pentateuch (the first 5 books of our Bible) were memorized as well as massive quantities of the Tanakh (largely the historical Old Testament books with the poetry and prophets writings). This means they had MEMORIZED the entirety of the Old Testament as well as massive amounts of "commentary" that were explanations of those scriptures. Jesus often spoke of those writings when He would say, "You have heard it said that.....but I say unto you..." He was referring to those commentary writings at that time.

Of course very few people had the mental horse power and personal discipline to cut the mustard to be a rabbi or Pharisee. Josephus tells us that there were only about 3000 total Pharisees at the Fall of Jerusalem some 37 years after Jesus was crucified. Just not many could fulfill the mental requirements to make it.

IT IS IN THAT CONTEXT THAT THE PHARISEES AND RELIGIOUS RULERS SAID OF THE APOSTLES "THEY ARE UNSCHOOLED AND ORDINARY MEN".

Compared to the religious leaders they were. HOWEVER-They were by no means "UNEDUCATED" as it is being implied in this thread. Of course Paul WAS a Pharisee. However, Peter, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew, etc. although not Pharisees, were certainly not "uneducated" in the way that word is being used here.

THE APOSTLES THAT ARE CALLED "UNSCHOOLED AND ORDINARY MEN" HAD ALL MEMORIZED THE FIRST 5 BOOKS OF THE OLD TESTAMENT!

To the Pharisees this level of knowledge was "uneducated and ignorant". However, that is a far cry from what is being implied in this thread at times.

How many of us have the first 5 books of the Bible memorized in their entirety? How many here have ANY memorized entirely? Our standard of "ignorance" is normally a far cry from what theirs was. Often the "they were unschooled" argument is used as an excuse for laziness. Pure and simple. It is easier to just throw out opinions and use a few proof texts -that may have nothing to actually do with the topic- and then say "I'm preaching Bible"... and perhaps be using His word to make points that He never intended... it happens every day.

The disciples were unschooled and ordinary men only in the sense that they that way when compared to the Pharisees. However, compared to most folks today in the church they were absolute scholars!

Paul addresses this also-
2 Tim 2:15 states- Study and be eager and do your utmost to present yourself to God approved (tested by trial), a workman who has no cause to be ashamed, correctly analyzing and accurately dividing [rightly handling and skillfully teaching] the Word of Truth. ( Amplified)

Now... back to Krispy's point on balance. God does not HAVE to have those who study and dig into His word to work. However, it is apparent from a plethora of scripture that He wants us to study, dig, memorize, and put His word into us.

The other issue is this.... they were producing in your face miracles. Are those who seem to favor ignorance over learning also producing the same level of miracles to validate themselves as sent by God? Honestly?

I agree that there must be a balance...however, it seems that the "unschooled and ordinary" talk is often an excuse for laziness in study habits and an excuse to not bear down and put ones nose to the grindstone when digging into The Word of God. Perhaps not always..again balance....but often.

Just a post to give another angle of insight to those referenced scriptures.

Blessings

Caps were used for emphasis only. No yelling was intended.

sermonindex Dec 5, 2011

I agree 100% with what you just posted here! Thank you for posting that... It is such a blessing to post something, and then have another brother jump in and take my thoughts a little bit further than I did.

You are absolutely correct in what you said.

I was trying to say that, but you knocked it out of the park!

The problem with folks today is we read the Bible with our western cultural 21st century eyes. Some people read "unlearned and uneducated" and we assume that means they were all high school drop outs.

We have to dig and understand the CONTEXT. Context is more than just reading the 2 or 3 verses surrounding a text. Context means consulting commentaries and encyclopedias and learning about that culture... just as Solomon pointed out in his post.

Thank you, brother!! Excellent stuff!

Krispy

sermonindex Dec 5, 2011

So then those who have the critical commentaries, the Geek and Hebrew lexicons, the church history books, and prerhaps a seminary degree are God's choiccest servants?

The man or woman who have only a New Testament and the Holy Spirit to lead and teach are not used by God? Is that what the august, learned leaders of this forum are saying? No saurcasm intended because frankly I cannot hold a candle to you.

Blaine Scogin

sermonindex Dec 5, 2011

Thats not what is being said at all, Blaine.

What I am addressing is the reverse-snobbery of some who see ignorance of theology and doctrine as a badge of honor and spiritual purity when in fact the Bible says the exact opposite.

"Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that
needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth." - 2 Tim. 2:15.

By the way, if you can get online and write and post on this forum... you have commentaries, lexicons, theology text books at your fingertips... for free... all one has to do is google. Start with "Matthew Henry's Complete Commentary on the Bible".

For absolutely free on the internet you have available to you a greater library of Biblical resources than most pastors throughout the ages of church history have EVER had available to them in print.

We have no excuse.

Krispy

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roadsign Dec 5, 2011

So then those who have the critical commentaries, the Geek and Hebrew lexicons, the church history books, and prerhaps a seminary degree are God's choiccest servants?

Why the need for value judgments? Remember Paul’s analogy of the Body: Each part needs the others. Also: Those who have been given much, much will be expected.
The Puritans were given much and many of them used it very effectively. They placed a high value on learning, formal or informal. You see through their biographies and their writings - like Jonathan Edwards. These were the people who founded the universities - as a means to preserve society in godliness. We do well to remember what these people accomplished for society – in all fields of learning, really. And we still we are reaping the benefits. I cannot hold a candle to these Puritan Christians. Instead, I need a good deal of light shining on their books – so I can even absorb the content.

The man or woman who have only a New Testament and the Holy Spirit to lead and teach are not used by God?

Brother, do keep in mind that all the body parts are essential –even the unnoticeable ones. It is the world that likes to place people on status grids – and the world that uses formal education for status purposes. That is what the Pharisees were doing. And that was the issue, not the idea of learning well.

Scripture cautions us against such value judgments - like in the warning:“Those who have been given much, much will be expected.”

Consider also Romans 12: 3 "Do not think of yourself more highly than you aught, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of FAITH God has given you. .... We have different gifts, ....


Diane

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