Osas vs. perseverance -\t-Apology--

Did not know that this topic was banned, I have deleted the original post and will not bring it up again according to the moderators wishes. I am sorry for those who get upset by such questions but I think as christian thinkers, we should be able to convey our ideas without coming across as aggressive and disrespectful....what must we sound like to an unbeliever (no matter whose definition) if we can't discuss our convictions in a civil manner. I apologize and will not bring this up again.

Hey Rawhide-

Well..... let's just say that horse has been beat to death again, again, again, and again on the forums.

Honestly, people do with those verses the same thing you do with verses that seem to disagree with your theology....preach around them! ;-)

Actually one of my college professors said that... but it has a grain of truth in it.

There are ample scriptures to prove all sides of this argument. All sides have plenty of scriptures and ammunition to "prove" their point... it is a fruitless discussion. This is especially on a public forum.

In addition, the moderators have asked that this topic specifically NOT be started again as it has only caused strife and discord.

So... just please let it drop and read one of the myriad of threads that has already beaten this to death from all sides. You will quickly see the wisdom of that decision by the moderators.

Blessings to you! However, pick another topic for a forum thread.

Sorry,i am a newer member and did not know this...but thank you so much for making that clear.

Hello Rawhide.

You raised a topic that even the most outstanding theologians have struggled over. I can vouch for Solomon - that it has been beaten to death here,. It is perhaps wise to leave this topic with those more qualified to handle it.

Recently I read the biography of George Whitefield by Dalimore and gained a deeper appreciation of the issue - as it affected him and John Wesley.

Without a doubt the Lord can guide you in your own search - not just to find pat answers, but to appreciate this centuries-long struggle.

May God bless you here on SI.

Diane

I know this is against what sermonindex ask us to do and not bring this up.

Could not resist, Once human always human, OHAH. Once a born again Christ natured person always a born again Christ natured person. OCPACP

If God saved me, no one can take me out of His Hands. I had nothing to do with either one of them, human or Christ person. OSAS

Quote: """Though others can have that OSAS mentality, I on the other hand am unable to think that way."""

I completely understand and ten years ago I would have completely agreed with you. Christ in me changed all that.

What makes a Father? Now I persevere as a son..

In Christ: Phillip

Hmmmmm..... very interesting isn't it?!?!

Rawhide makes a posts on a topic that the moderators and owner of the site have clearly stated is off limits and to not post on. However, as Rawhide is new, and had no idea, he is of course to be cut some slack as he did it in all clearness of conscience. No harm..no foul. Let it go and let the thread drop... no one should pick it up.

However, when those who clearly KNOW what the owner and moderators have established as the rules choose to go ahead and post to continue the thread that is wrong. In fact the follow up posters seemed to be unable to resist throwing their beliefs out there. They say so. One seems happy that a good brewhaha is coming. That is knowing full well someone will challenge their post... they are obviously itchin' for a fight.

Throwing your "belief" out on this topic after you know Greg and the moderators have made it crystal clear that it IS NOT to be done leaves only one conclusion--- you are in rebellion.

There is no other conclusion. They said, "Do not do it on this site"... you willingly rebelled at their decision on their site. THAT is rebellion and reveals a total lack of submission in the heart.

It would seem a statement of repentance to Greg and the moderators would be in order... followed by deleting every other word posted in the thread that is clearly rebellion to them. If you want to vent to your hearts content then get your own site and vent away. However, it is rebellion to do so on theirs when you know it violates their ruling on it.

Don't be mad that you are asked to abide by the same rules as everyone else instead of posting "hit and run" snippets that do nothing but engender strife and discord. As we all know.. one of the seven things the Lord says He hates is one who stirs dissension amongst the brothers..SO QUIT DOING IT.

Respect Greg's desires and the clearly expressed wishes of the moderators!

Delete the posts and apologize to the owner, moderators, and those members who have stayed submissive to them.

Now we will see where the heart is.

rawhide displayed a rare humble spirit and apologized as few have done here. Please extend some irresistable grace to him and accept him, no need to blast a newcomer.

Welcome brother, enjoy the vast resources of this forum!

God bless you, rawhide.

Those of us who have been here for a while have witnessed the devastating effects this topic brings to the forums. Occasionally, a newbie will come on and introduce this subject and have to be told it is off-limits.

I did a search but could not find in the rules anywhere that this topic is off-limits. Seems to me it would be wise if the mods would make a note of this in their list of off-limit topics. The reason we know it is off-limits is because they have told us in the forums when this topics' discussion got out of hand.

God bless.

Rawhide said: "Did not know that this topic was banned"

No, nor did I. Actually, it took me a few minutes to workout what OSAS might mean; I am a bit slow :-)

I checked the "SermonIndex Forum Disclaimer / Community Rules" (https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=36384&forum=13) and couldn't find any reference to this topic being banned, nor any list of banned theology topics. Perhaps I missed it, but I used the Find function in my browser and nothing on OSAS, Once Saved, Calvin or Armin... showed up.

This is what we are asked to read when we join, and I try to read it occasionally, to keep up to date on what the current attitude is. But if the banned list of topics isn't recorded here, where is it, so that we can all keep ourselves up-to-date. At least it would be good to link to it from the Community Rules page.

I suppose the closest one gets is in the rule "If you're posting a new topic, do not post something that has been discussed numerous times. Browse the forums first or use the Search function.", but the search function has also been disabled (?) and so this is no longer possible. Okay, one can do it through advanced search in Google, but that is more work.

If there is a banned list of topics, the Disclaimer needs to be amended from "You may have your theology turned inside out and upside down." to "You may have 80% (or 60% or 40%) of your theology turned inside out and upside down." But that is a light hearted observation, rather than a request for a change :-)

Kind regards
Mike

PS There is still a reference to Private Messages in these rules. I thought this function had also been removed?

PPS Some of us do our best to honour the site owner(s) and moderators, by trying to adhere to the rules. But that is a two way street, the site owner(s) and moderators should also keep the rules up-to-date and ensure that as far as possible adhering to them is facilitated by the site, itself.

PPPS Now I won't try "Arguing with the Moderator Team over the enforcement of these rules [as it] will get you no where." But it would be good if they could review this Disclaimer and Rules, to see if there is any way they can help us help them.

This post is not intended for you, rawhide but those of us who have been here awhile!!

Do we actually need MORE rules to conduct ourselves by? Do we need the ‘government’ of sermonindex telling us what we should and shouldn’t talk about? Do we need every jot and tiddle written plainly down for us who are supposed to be adults?

The point “is” not that we shouldn’t talk about these things but BEHAVING OURSELVES WHEN WE DO.

Iron sharpens iron but remember that people's feelings of self worth do not have to driven like a stake into the ground when someone adamantly disagrees with you and we know going into this that it is one of those adamant topics!

God bless us all!
Lisa

*** Like Solomon101, caps are not intended to be yelling but emphasizing.

Since this thread is still alive I share a personal burden which has lingered since those traumatic days here related to the theological disputes around OSAS. In the SI community, the OSAS debate is obviously a polemic topic.

Some years ago I posted a thread based on an article, called “POLEMIC THEOLOGY: HOW TO DEAL WITH THOSE WHO DIFFER FROM US”

http://www.founders.org/journal/fj33/article3.html by R. Nicole.

Tragically, the thread got locked because certain posters violated the very precautions addressed in this article. It was clear that one poster never read it but merely glanced at it and saw a reference to the OSAS issue. To her this was a red flag – and just too threatening. She mustered up all the psychological and emotional ammunition she could devise and launched a vicious attack. Obviously she had never been able to dislodge herself from her own past wounding related to the use (abuse!) of this theme. The potential benefit of the thread was lost because it got locked out entirely. No doubt, there was not another option - at the time.

I suspect that banning any topic simply because of past abuse is NOT going to solve anything. The problem merely goes underground – and it will continue to haunt God’s people. No one gets to learn how to handle polemic discussion or to love their “opponent” with Christian submissiveness. It might appear as if evil is suppressed for the time being. However really, the devil wins!

The OSAS topic is like a stick of dynamite - subject to exploding when in the hands of ill-prepared users. Rather than ban the topic, maybe God’s people would benefit more by learning how to deal with its polemic tendencies. That is why I recommend the POLEMIC THEOLOGY article. It's brilliant!

The subtitles are:

What Do I Owe to the Person Who Differs From Me?
What Can I Learn from Those Who Differ From Me?
How Can I Cope with Those Who Differ from Me?
Appeal to Reason
Appeal to History and Tradition

I suggest this article be required reading for anyone treading into a polemic topic. It should be a stickied thread. O sure, studying this paper demands diligent efforts, time and rigorous reflection! But if anyone does not wish to do that, then that person is certainly not qualified to discuss a topic that demands these very qualities.

It may be that God’s purpose is not that we arrive at the “right” conclusion so much that we learn how to submit to one another in Christian love – including our theologians from the past. Through dialogue we can learn about ourselves and our style of thinking and relating to others; we can learn to appreciate another’s perspectives. And perhaps we can give up our need to win and be “right”. I trust that that doesn’t sound too tedious.

It’s a risk, but in Christ there is always a way back: forgiveness and restoration.

And that’s a giant step forward – wouldn’t you say!

Diane

I appreciate all the support from yall,yes I am from texas where yall is legal to say! I have very thick skin, so don't think you could ever run me off just by a post. I tend to agree that no subject should be off limits, but as per my previous post,i think as thinkers should be able to discuss things without starting ww3...as someone already stated, you don't have to agree. I work with youth and so I deal with many questions that adults are frankly too scared to ask. I do not commit wholly to either calvinism or armenianism, both sides have their points, I rather side with those in acts that searched the scriptures to see which things are true.
Having said all that, the underlying question behind my original question is this: since the bible is written plainly, and clearly...shouldn't we take what it says for face value, in context, when there are statements made that are not in some metaphorical form? (ie the imagery in revelation.) I just tend to believe that the bible means what it says and, since I read mine in english, says it in plain english.
Please remember that we are to do all to the glory of God and that even applies to situations in which we disagree. Thanks for your input and don't think I'm going anywhere anytime soon.