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Judgement in the House of God - When to draw the line?

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EvangelTam Dec 17, 2011

Hey guys,

So I just watched Francis Chan's sermon clip on Judgement in the house of God

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBEjMWJAhHI&feature=player_embedded#!

He has really matured a lot in these past couple of years and it is really encouraging!

One question and problem I have though:
What do we do with Christians who are perpetually addicted to pornography and can't break free?

They know its wrong and confess it but I just dont know what to do its been a year and its not like they are hiding it and they are sorry and they confess it again and again.

I dont feel like they need to be rebuked ..
any answers?


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learjet Dec 17, 2011

I dont feel like they need to be rebuked... any answers?

Didn't Jesus teach in the Sermon on the Mount that adultery in the heart is just as grievous as committing the act physically (MT 5:27-30)?

Clearly these people don't believe that what they are doing is sin, it's really that simple, it might be a 'problem', 'weakness' or whatever to them but it's clearly not sin to them but Jesus didn't come to help with 'weaknesses' He came to cleanse (totally remove) our sins. Confession is not repentance, confession without repentance are useless words, folks who walk in sin are unbelievers.

What to do about the situation in the church is not ambiguous it's crystal clear, Jesus told us what to do in Matthew 18:

“If another believer sins *AGAINST YOU, go privately and point out the offense. If the other person listens and confesses it, you have won that person back. 16 But if you are unsuccessful, take one or two others with you and go back again, so that everything you say may be confirmed by two or three witnesses. 17 If the person still refuses to listen, take your case to the church. Then if he or she won’t accept the church’s decision, treat that person as a pagan or a corrupt tax collector.
18 “I tell you the truth, whatever you forbid[f] on earth will be forbidden in heaven, and whatever you permit[g] on earth will be permitted in heaven.

19 “I also tell you this: If two of you agree here on earth concerning anything you ask, my Father in heaven will do it for you. 20 For where two or three gather together as my followers,[h] I am there among them.”

*most manuscripts do not have 'against you'. Meaning it should read 'if your brother sins'

-Matthew 18:15-20

Paul carried this verse out in practice in 1 Corinthians 5:

I can hardly believe the report about the sexual immorality going on among you—something that even pagans don’t do. I am told that a man in your church is living in sin with his stepmother.[a] 2 You are so proud of yourselves, but you should be mourning in sorrow and shame. And you should remove this man from your fellowship.

1 Corinthians 5:1-2

Sexual immorality is sexual immorality and should not be tolerated in the body, period. It should be dealt with by unified elders in the church.

With that said please note the outcome of this whole story in 2 Corinthians 2:

I am not overstating it when I say that the man who caused all the trouble hurt all of you more than he hurt me. 6 Most of you opposed him, and that was punishment enough. 7 Now, however, it is time to forgive and comfort him. Otherwise he may be overcome by discouragement. 8 So I urge you now to reaffirm your love for him.

9 I wrote to you as I did to test you and see if you would fully comply with my instructions. 10 When you forgive this man, I forgive him, too. And when I forgive whatever needs to be forgiven, I do so with Christ’s authority for your benefit, 11 so that Satan will not outsmart us. For we are familiar with his evil schemes.

-2 Corinthians 2:5-11

In the end the man was confronted, excommunicated and later restored, isn't that wonderful? Restoration was the motivation from the beginning!

Hope this helps you out! :-)

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Lysa Dec 17, 2011

EvangelTam wrote:
They know its wrong and confess it but I just dont know what to do its been a year and its not like they are hiding it and they are sorry and they confess it again and again.

Jesus came to SET the captives free, if it was just a decision that men (and women) could make when they wake up, “I’m not watching anymore porn, ever;” then they wouldn’t need Jesus, now would they? Men who are addicted to porn need to be set free by those who believe the power of the Holy Spirit can set these men free.

I, personally, believe this is a telling sign among those who name the name of Christ – that no one is being set free. The church today is riddled with addictions and no one believes these people have a supernatural problem because if you’re a Christian you can’t have a demonic problem but yet problems abound among God’s people. Go figure.

Just a woman’s humble two cents worth.
God bless,
Lisa

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Sree Dec 17, 2011


One question and problem I have though:
What do we do with Christians who are perpetually addicted to pornography and can't break free?

They know its wrong and confess it but I just dont know what to do its been a year and its not like they are hiding it and they are sorry and they confess it again and again.

I dont feel like they need to be rebuked ..
any answers?

I don't Believe these people have to be rebuked. We need to have compassion for them. They are living in sin. We need to pray for them. Also talk to them about true repentance. Repentance is to turn away from something and make a 180 degree change. The prodigal son turned away from Pig's food, never to return again and that is why his Father came running towards him. It is problem with Churches, they never preach repentance these days because to preach repentance they need to talk about Sin and when they do so people might get offended and stop coming to Church.

We need to pray that these people will realize that they are weak and seek for God's power, which is the power of Holy Spirit to work in them. Unless they understand their weakness they will never overcome it, because God's power perfects us only in our weakness. If one thinks he is strong then where is the need for God's power in him.

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EvangelTam Dec 18, 2011

Thanks for you replies! It is just really frustrating but I am learning patience. Please pray for discernment on this matter. I do believe all that is said right thank you so much. The way God works is very mysterious.

In Christ
Evangel

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Sidewalk Dec 18, 2011

I have been thinking about this since I first noticed the post, and have wanted to give a careful and deliberate response. Pornography has exploded into the American culture- the whole world culture really, with the Internet. It used to be that an effort needed to be made to get porn, you had to buy magazines, or to get the hardcore stuff you had to deal with unsavory people. Not any more. Two or three clicks in the sweet privacy of you and your computer and you are there. And much of it is free, in a money sense.

As a result, millions of men who are born again and attend church are held in the grip of pornography’s delicious seduction. For many, only they and God have knowledge of their habit. The corresponding guilt sends their minds into overactive rationalizing, and cuts off the true intimacy that the Father longs for. Pornography is a dark alley with no good end, no fulfillment, and no peace. In many ways it is like any other addiction, weaving chains of bondage that are anchored in Hell.

I wish I had a good and easy answer for this one. As has been mentioned men in the grip of this sin will often repent, be so remorseful, will vow to quit, and shock themselves with how quickly they are back into it. I have as much respect for this one as I have for cocaine, heroine, gambling, and the occult. These are the quick ones, capturing their victims with unanticipated speed. And they have dark spiritual accelerants.

It is a common counseling technique to get the person to speak to their issue with a plan of attack once they recognize the problem. One guy I know who admits the problem had an agreement with his wife to only use the computer when she is there to keep an eye on him. He was working other things as well, attempting to control it from the outside. But once he quit coming to our men’s fellowship, I don’t know what happened. I expect it didn’t go well. The problem is not solved by controlling external circumstances.

I am going to suggest this. The problem is internal, and it can be defeated the same way a man gets saved by Jesus Christ. From Romans 10:9-10 where we combine a believing of the heart, and the speaking forth of the mouth, the same is true in confronting habitual sin practices.

“God I want to be your man, to be filled with your goodness, your righteousness, taking pleasure in the things that are your pleasure! I repent and rebuke this wickedness that has stolen my heart, and I am returning to you by the Blood of the Lord Jesus Christ!”

Well said. But there’s more.

“In Jesus’ name I rebuke you demon, demon of pornography that hates me, that hates God, hates the women also stolen from the protection of a loving God. Get out of my head, out of my heart, out of my covenant with my God. The blood of Jesus that has saved my soul is against you, and every time you come to me with this temptation, you are going to hear from my mouth the blood of Jesus standing against you!”

We forget (someone wants us to forget) just how powerful spoken words like this can be in repelling demonic temptation. Let me close with a little story.

When I came home from the Viet Nam war where I’d been an infantry medic, I became a Registered Nurse and worked in a psych ward in a hospital. Technically forbidden to present my faith to the patients, I worked around that as best as I could. One day one of my patients was a woman named Helen. In and out of the hospital many times, she had had many shock treatments and courses of drugs to no real avail. She heard voices constantly. What was unique about her circumstance was that she was well educated and had been a Roman Catholic nun. With her mental troubles she had been released from her vocation.

It was late in the day near the end of my shift, and I was with her in her room and I asked her what she thought the voices were.

“Is it the devil?” she asked.

“I don’t think so,” I responded. “I think it’s just his helpers, demons.” Then I said to her, “Do you know Jesus?”

A warm smile came to her face and she said, “I love Jesus.”


“Helen,” I said to her, “If you love Jesus, you don’t have to listen to those voices.”

I reached behind myself and pushed the door closed. Going into non-medical territory here. I put my hand on her forehead and rebuked the demons in the name of Jesus. “This woman belongs to Jesus, get away from her!”

“So what happened?” I asked.

“Ooh, they were real close- but now they’re further away!”

She was so surprised and happy. I told her that I didn’t have any more power than she had as a child of God, that in the name of Jesus she could drive them away herself.

“Really?” She was incredulous. No one had ever told her that.

The following day when I came into work she was beside herself with joy. “It works, it works!” she proclaimed. Shortly after that she was discharged, and for the next couple years I worked there she never came back. She had learned to use her mouth to affirm the saving power of Jesus.

I hope this helps- as for me I declare with my mouth that I hate the desolating power of pornography!


sermonindex Dec 20, 2011

Porn is temptation. just like all other addictions, your weakest point is where you'll suffer the most, be it porn, alcohol or drug addiction.

We are constantly being tested and tried to prove ourselves worthy. If you view addiction as a trial (temptation) you wouldn't feel so hopeless, you can then start working towards overcoming, because you've got your eye on that prize.

We must overcome all our worldly desires. No one said it would be easy but we don't have a choice but to overcome, through total obedience and %100 submission.

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SolaVeritas Dec 21, 2011

Why do Christians not heed Jesus' advice in Matthew 5? If something (like our hand or eyes) causes us to sin, we need to radically cut off that possiblity. He didn't say, try not to let those naughty eyes lead you into more sin, he said, gouge them out! Gone for good. What does that mean when it comes to temtations like pornography? Get rid of the computer. Go to the internet cafe to check your emails or stay away for good. Addicted to your phone and constantly distracted by all the texting? Get rid of it. Can't resist watching all those soap operas all day long and no time for the Bible? No more TV in your house. Yes, you can and life will go on. People need to be told that.
I do believe though that a fully surrendered person can reisist any temtation with Jesus' help, but some of the above steps might be needed first.

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twayneb Dec 21, 2011

I have found that focusing on accountability groups, trying to exert more willpower, thinking about how bad pornography is, and the like can never in and of themselves lead to long lasting victory. I will tell you what I have learned.

First, there does need to be a recognition that it is sin. But most men who are addicted are well aware of this fact already and feel great shame and condemnation continually. The don't need to be told how sinful they are as the enemy beats them over the head with that fact every day.

Second, there does need to be genuine repentance. There needs to be an acknowledgement of this as sin and a turning from it and a turning to the Lord.

Third, Yes, there does need to be a walk between men where they are submitted one to another. Call it accountability, call it submission, call it genuine fellowship, call it whatever you will but it is an important element.

But the element that I think is missing sometimes is more of a total life change that should be indicative of a believer that I think is missing so many times. A man needs to fall so in love with His Lord and Savior and so occupy his time and his thoughts with the things of God that pornography or other temptations can no longer compare to the glory that the man is experiencing in knowing and pursuing God. We live such carnal lives. By carnal I simply mean we are so occupied with the physical and fleshly that we are spiritually weak and emaciated. We are easy prey for the enemy. But genuine relationship with a living God is a thing that should totally consume our lives. The fact that men fall so easily to pornography is not so much a porn problem as it is a barometer that is telling them their relationship with God is not where it ought to be. Victory comes in a life that is totally consumed with God and that victory is really effortless in that we no longer have to strive to be pure but we walk in purity as we walk daily and closely with and Purity Himself.

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Sidewalk Dec 21, 2011

Well said, Travis!

Gouging out the eyes, smashing the computer, sending the TV to the trash- leaves you with just your memories of the images which you can revisit over and over again in your mind. It's fighting an inside problem from the outside.

Unfortunately, few fall in love with God overnight, it is the pursuit of His interests over time that establishes both the relationship and the righteousness that makes a worthy stand against the sweet purring sound of Satan's invitations.

God was very direct with Cain. "Listen up, Dude- sin is crouching at the door and really wants you bad! But you must master it!"

Interesting how despite centuries of theological thought that man has an inborn sinful nature, God never allows anyone to use that as an excuse for sin.

Also funny how God waits long and late to hear a repentant heart, and we just keep boring Him with information He already knows.


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ginnyrose Dec 21, 2011

I have no answers...just a few observations.

Illicit sex is the most addictive behavior, even worse then crack which is why scripture has such strong words against it. Under the OT law adulterers were to be stoned, not divorced and put away. Since Jesus came he relaxed this law of capital punishment...Now, why do you think he did that? Is it because He offers a victory that was not possible under the law? Think about that.

Some people say they cannot quit....now if while indulging in it and some were to cry "FIRE!!!!" could they quit? SURE! Well, fire is ahead..Perhaps people need to catch a sense of the reality of hell-fire!

My thoughts when I think of the issue...

L
learjet Dec 21, 2011

Some people say they cannot quit....now if while indulging in it and some were to cry "FIRE!!!!" could they quit? SURE! Well, fire is ahead..Perhaps people need to catch a sense of the reality of hell-fire!

Thanks ginny, you said it better than I did.

My original point was the people don't see it as a sin, it's a 'weakness' to them.

Let's take this same scenario into the physical realm, what if someone had just a little bit of cancer in their body? Would they not go to the doctor and do everything possible to get it removed or eradicated from their bodies?

Sin is worse than cancer, it has the ability to separate us from the Father forever. These people just don't have a revelation that what they are doing is sin.

The advice in this thread sounds wonderful and even spiritual BUT the Lord didn't tell us to pray for this person (it's already been done), he didn't tell us to counsel this person (it's already been done), He says to "EXPEL the wicked person from among you.” -1 Corinthians 5:13b (Deut. 13:5; 17:7; 19:19; 21:21; 22:21,24; 24:7)

Expel is an action, not a thought.

Peace to all of you!

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ginnyrose Dec 21, 2011

QUOTE:
""EXPEL the wicked person from among you.” -1 Corinthians 5:13b"

1Corinthians 5:11-13:

1Co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

1Co 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

These are sobering words. Sin contaminates; Paul describes it as leaven or yeast. Get a little bit of yeast in your dough and it will rise. Actually, the only way to kill it is to bake it - subject it to high temps. Is there an analogy here?

In our brotherhood we have a brother who is troubled with this sin. He has wrestled with it for a long time. Confession has been made, accountability is part of his routine, counseling has been done, yet... Our leadership has banned him from holding ANY and all church office - he cannot be voted in for any spiritual leadership role, not even for a trustee!

Ahhhh, if people would only recognize how dreadful immorality is, how it effects a person in the long run, how it is so hard to be loosed from its grip; yet Jesus relaxed this rule and since this is the case, there must be deliverance.

God bless, Earl.

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narrowpath Dec 21, 2011

Seems this thread is now more about internet porn.

Men watch internet porn because they like it more than God. Weakness and temptation is a foul excuse. Jesus has won the victory. As long as men hide behind weakness and temptation they'll never have victory. Lust is a sin to flee from, it is not good to face it. Once you face it, you are already looking at it.

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AbideinHim Dec 22, 2011

The Apostle Paul strongly rebuked the Corinthian Church because they were allowing a so called brother within the Church to live in immorality without any consequences.
The object of all church discipline just as in the chastening of the Lord is to bring the brother who has sinned to a place of repentance and restoration.

In the case of a brother than is truly repentant and brokenhearted over his sin, those that are spiritual should restore such a one in the spirit of meekness. (Gal.6:1). God will set those that are bound by internet porn free if they truly want to be delivered and have godly sorry for their sin. Those that are making excuses for their sin will have to dealt with more severe discipline but the purpose is still that they would acknowledge their sin, repent, and be restored to fellowship.

Mike

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JB1968 Dec 22, 2011

Rev 21:8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

This sin may happen in a church building but not in Christ's purchased church. How can a person be truly born again and be a "whoremonger"? Christ came to deliver. Of course, if a person repents they can be restored.

What disturbs me is the surveys that tell of all the sexual sin that is going on. This is sad and sick. It is either pollsters are lying or the organized church is in trouble.

God's call is to a life of holiness, not wickedness. He has the power to deliver once for all.

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roadsign Dec 22, 2011

In our age of individualism, we tend to view sin as a problem with particular INDIVIDUALS - while everyone else stands distinct from it. We assume that this particular identified individual is the one who needs to do the changing. Perhaps we offer advice, quote bible verses, or we send them to a therapist.

This individualistic model of care in the social services is being questioned by some researchers. It just doesn’t work well – and for a good reason: By labeling the troubled person as the problem and sending them to experts, the wider problem remains untouched. The actual problem is much bigger than the specific sinner’s issues.

Addictions and maladaptive habits developed through weaknesses in relationships – but that is also the means to victory – a strong consistent relational context. Where relationships are weak and poorly developed, then it is unlikely for change to occur. And everybody is part of the sin problem.

Sadly, our society, including churches, is profoundly deficient in knowledge when it comes to relationships. We can hardly talk about it. So really, we are all part of the problem.

Overall, our churches are not particularly effective change agents – even if they ban the "sinner" for a time. The church today itself is sin sick – even if no one feels sick.

Romans 1 talks about a sin sick society and lists of a number of symptoms. That’s us. Romans 2 talks about a sin sick church. That’s us too. When it comes to the effects of sin, a lot of people are suffering as a result. Many are victims - even as they are agents of their own choices.

So how can we help sinners (AND God’s people) in the road to victory? I share merely what God has called me to do. He said one day when I was agonizing over a falling believer: “The best way you can help him is by giving yourself to me”.

We can’t change people, but we can allow God to change us. That’s where it begins. (See Hebrews 12 - which is about the work of God's corrective judgment in the house of God)

Diane


sermonindex Dec 24, 2011

ginnyrose

Since Jesus came he relaxed this law of capital punishment...Now, why do you think he did that? Is it because He offers a victory that was not possible under the law? Think about that.

ginnyrose, the Messaiah did not relax any part of the Law.
this is what he said... "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." John 8:7

they were all sinners none of them had the authority to pronounce the death sentence. To say he relaxed the Law is not in line with scripture.

sermonindex Jan 1, 2012

Addictions and maladaptive habits developed through weaknesses in relationships – but that is also the means to victory – a strong consistent relational context. Where relationships are weak and poorly developed, then it is unlikely for change to occur. And everybody is part of the sin problem.

Sadly, our society, including churches, is profoundly deficient in knowledge when it comes to relationships. We can hardly talk about it. So really, we are all part of the problem.

Hope we can disagree and maintain 'relationships' here.

The wording of this quote above is more humanistic than Biblical.

The reason we have such "sin" in the Church in these days is because we've called "sin" by other names - such as "addiction" or any other use of psychological terminology.

Sexual sins are not caused by relationship or relational problems - unless you mean "a true 'relationship' with The LORD."

The couple in the Garden of Eden were our examples that even in a perfect environment, with no dysfunctional relationships to blame - man Will "sin".

Tempted of our own lusts. Sin is sin and we need to take a Sola Scriptura stand on it. Psycho-babble kills as well as the enemy's lies about himself and his 'power', that far too many have 'fallen' over or for.

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