I said the sinner's prayer, but I'm still living in sin...

Ok, hope that caught your attention...I know that we have discussed this before so maybe you can point me in the direction of some past threads.Can a person be "saved" but still continue in sin and still go to heaven? Can we talk again about OSAS/Eternal Security or "loosing your salvation". Thanks! Specifically about a scripture let's start with John 10:27-29Grace,Doug

Hi Bro. Doug,This topic has been discussed at length in the forums; but I have found that doing a study of some basic bible truths will get us started in the right direction. The terms have to be defined first as we have to be pouring the same meanings into our words or we will not rightly communicate. There are some real good teachings titled repentance, justification, regeneration, and adoption that you can check out HereI personally started a series on this very topic that Bro. Greg has been kind enough to put up. It is called THE DESPENSATION OF THE GOSPEL. The next installment will be on the topic of our having been "Crucified With Christ" and the latest is "Saved From Sin." I deal with John 10:27 by defining exactly who it is that are His Sheep. My position is that there are three types of people in any given church:1) Sheep2) Goats3) WolvesSheep are the regenerated. Goats are convicted sinners give or take. Wolves are agents of the enemy sent for the destruction of the sheep.Maybe this will give us a little background for Q & A. God Bless,-Robert

John chapter 14...

Hi Bro. Doug,Specifically about a scripture let's start with John 10:27-29My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.Dealing specifically with the question at hand; I said the sinner's prayer but I'm still living in sin... I wish to point out that the sinner's prayer is nothing more than a tool (a quite suspect one at that) in the hands of evangelists to try and lead a sinner to "accepting Christ as their personal Savior". We have all seen and heard it in some for or another. The speaker asks the parties who are either unsaved or backslidden to repeat after them. It starts off with something like this:Dear Jesus...I'm a sinner...I ask you to forgive me of my sins.. (so on and so forth) . After the prayer is made another comment is made to the effect that, "If you prayed that prayer and meant it with all your heart you are now as saved as you will ever be. God has written your name in the Lamb's book of life." Leonard Ravenhill dealt with this problem over and over again in his messages. It leaves out the experience of the new birth. Can a person pass from death to life in 4 minutes? Can a person take off the old man and put on the new man? Can they metaphorically get married unto Christ? In my opinion a sinner would have to be in a deep state of conviction and fully ready to surrender their life to Christ to make that step in 4 minutes. Yet, people are not in that state when they pray that prayer for the most part. The prayerlessness of the people and powerlessness of the message leave a sinner generally in an awakened state at best. Are they ready to be born again? In no wise. Lets look briefly at the three types of unrepentant sinners:1) careless sinners (could care-less about their soul)2) awakened sinners (are in a state to consider their need)3) convicted sinners (are convicted of the Holy Spirit)3) Convicted Sinners The “convicted sinner” is a person who after hearing a Gospel message and having been dealt with greatly by the Holy Spirit is convinced of their need for God and the Gospel. They are convinced they are a sinner and need to repent. They are convinced that they need to trust in Christ and turn everything completely over Him. To a lesser or greater degree they understand the Gospel. They are familiar more or less with God and His word- at least enough to be born again. The Holy Spirit has brought them to that place where they are trembling in awe of God and are halting between two opinions. They are at the crossroads- and must choose whom they will serve. At this time the Holy Spirit is in the role of Jesus Christ (John 14-15). Just as Jesus dealt with the rich young ruler- the Holy Spirit, in the same fashion, is dealing with this person. He is showing them in their ‘minds-eye’ what they must submit to Him in order to be saved and “have treasure in Heaven.” He is showing them His initial controversy with them. This is a “one-on-one” with the Holy Ghost. This is where the great striving and wrestling happens. The Holy Spirit knows what is standing between Him and them and He is showing it to them. He is pointing His finger on the "one thing thou lackest." The convicted sinner is made to know exactly what he/she is trading for their immortal soul should they decide NOT to repent. If a person will not submit to the Holy Ghost they can never be a child of God. The sons of God are led of the Spirit. How could a person ever be born again when they refuse to submit themselves to what the Holy Ghost is showing them? After all- their entire walk with God from the born again experience onward will be one of walking in agreement with the Holy Ghost. Can birth take place from rebellion? I trow not. Many people who pray the sinners prayer (especially from some appeal to selfishness) do not submit to the Holy Ghost and then say a prayer and get a pat on the back from the evangelist or workers as though they were saved. They have not repented and exercised saving faith in Christ. This leads them into a deceptive false assurance as they were never truly born again and in that state can in no wise see the Kingdom of Heaven (John 3:3). They call themselves saved and have not the Holy Spirit inside of them. They give up a few lousy habits and call it born again. They have been made to believe that a sinner + the sinners prayer = John 10:27-29. This is what Paris Reidhead would have called the betrayal of the ages that he was not sure God could revive. This is how a person can believe they pass from death to life in less time than leonard Ravenhill could get his car through a carwash. God Bless,-Robert

Well said Robert!Goodness, it just dawned on me, I never said "the sinners prayer"!. At least not in that fashion. Sorry, don't mean to be flip about it. But this idea that it's like getting a stamp in your passport so that you can move on to your next self seeking destination, is meaningless. It is the 'betrayal of the ages'.Maybe if we were to say have you experienced the 'sinners prayer' we might be getting somewhere. Interesting, looking for the verse reference to the man beating his chest, instead this jumped out at me;Luk 18:38 Then he shouted, "Jesus, Son of David, have mercy on me!" Luk 18:39 The people at the front of the crowd sternly told him to be quiet, but he started shouting even louder, "Son of David, have mercy on me!" Hard to shake the feeling in wouldn't be any different in many of our churches.I wish to point out that the sinner's prayer is nothing more than a tool (a quite suspect one at that) in the hands of evangelists to try and lead a sinner to "accepting Christ as their personal Savior". With an emphasis on "suspect".The biggest problem in this crafty catch phrase is the subtle implication that it's a 'finish' instead of a start. Am reminded of what the Lord meant here:Luk 14:28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it? Luk 14:29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him, Luk 14:30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish. Not to mention all that proceeds that:Luk 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. Luk 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. Then there is all the varieties of soil spoken of in Luke 8. And certainly the emphasis is on the 'hearers', but good grief if preachers are going to give out the spiritual equivalent of a McDonald's 'Happy Meal'...I digress. Just something very irksome coming out of so much nonsense. Leaves one feeling defrauded by those who ought to know better, especially being supposedly defenders of and champions of the Truth.

The biggest problem in this crafty catch phrase is the subtle implication that it's a 'finish' instead of a start.Hi Bro. Mike, The above statement is precisely what I heard a pastor say recently to try to bring some clairification to the issue. I agree that it is the biggest problem to suggest that there is any finality to the new birth experience in saying that prayer. There has to be a delivery (as it were). There has to be some trevail I'm sure. Leonard Ravenhill talked about folk who run onto the field holding hands and laughing going forward at an altar call. Then leave the place talking about going to get a hot dog. I met a young man about 3 months ago in a revival meeting who was about 17 years old and was formerly serving false gods. This young man got up to give his testimony and told of how he left the service the night he was saved and wept all night long for his sins. He went to school the following week or so and had opportunity to share with his classroom (this was at his High School) what God had done. He was speaking to them and the class broke into tears. He told of the horrible life he had lived and how he came to Christ in repentance. He had a powerful testimony and a brokeness that stirred me. Later that night he prayed to be filled completely with the Holy Spirit. It was an awesome testimony.God Bless,-Robert

Can we talk again about OSAS/Eternal Security or "loosing your salvation". Thanks!This subject sure seems to be a hot one, and one that causes some high emotions too.This OSAS subject has been one of confusion for me and still is. I think most here would agree that OSAS as taught by some regarding a one time "stamp of the pasport" as Mike said, is just foolishness. However, I believe there is an eternal security that the Holy Spirit gives and without which we cannot really be of any effect in service for the kingdom of God. If we are not convinced of our own salvation how can we be effective witnesses unto Jesus Christ?The Spirit testifies with my spirit that I am a child of God and you might as well tell me I don't exist as tell me I'm not saved, as the saying goes "I know, that I know, that I know!"And yet I cannot get past Scriptures that seem to clearly indicate that salvation can be lost. One verse I read recently really brought this home;But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.(Matthew 6:15)Notice that verse says "your Father". I believe it is speaking about God's children and how their tresspases will NOT be forgiven if they will not forgive others. There seem to be many Scriptures that can support either side of the argument, I guess there isa balance in their somewhere but it remains a bit confusing to me. In the end, I believe it is the Holy Spirit's job alone to provide assurance, we must be careful not to try to take on His job in this matter.In Christ,Ron

Can a person be "saved" but still continue in sin and still go to heaven?"She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins." (Mat 1:21 NASB)Your question is asking can a person be saved and not saved at the same time?My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. John 10:27Possible interpretations: 1. There is a discrete group of people; my sheep. By implication there is another group which are ‘not my sheep’. The former group hears my voice; the latter group does not. In this view the ‘sheep’ are clearly on a set course. The ‘hearing my voice’, the ‘being known’, the ‘following’, the ‘being given eternal life’ etc are all the consequence of being a sheep. These are the inevitable characteristics of being a sheep. This verse is the career path of a sheep.2. There is a group of people who may be described by their behaviour and experience. The ‘hearing my voice’, the ‘being known’, the ‘following’, the being given eternal life’ etc are all the qualifications for being a sheep. These are the necessary conditions of being a sheep. This verse is the description of a sheep.The John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. (Joh 10:26 KJV) might seem to make explanation No 2 impossible but please read on…There is a habit of scripture which is very uncomfortable for people who think in a linear way to accommodate; I mean people who think in strict chronological order. It is the habit of calling something by a name that it does not receive until later. Technically this is called prolepsis. A simple example is the use of the place name Bethel in Gen 12:8 and 13:3 whereas the place does not receive the name Bethel until Gen 28:19. There are lots of these prolepses in scripture.I do not read Hebrew but I have tried to read about it and its verbs are fascinating. (I know there are other with some Hebrew on this site so perhaps they can comment.) Hebrew verbs do not have ‘tenses’ in the way that European languages have tenses. Behind the European tenses there is a linear mind-set; first, second, third… yesterday, today, tomorrow. Hebrew tenses are more concerned with the nature of the action than with its time period. Hebrew has two ‘sort of tenses’; the complete and the incomplete. You have to read the context to discover whether the action took place in the past, the present or the future. The thing that mattered to the Hebrew language was the ‘kind of action’ rather than the ‘timing of the action’.We need to remember this when we are drawing what we think are logical conclusions. Is this ‘western logic’ or ‘eastern logic’? If the Bible we a western book we might easily conclude that explanation No.1 above was right, but John did not have a western mind-set. This is evidenced by little clues such as the fact that John does not use the noun ‘faith’ in his writings, but he does use the verb ‘believe’. Moreover when he uses the word he often creates a kind of title with it by referring to ‘the believing one’. John is not interested in ‘faith’ as a commodity, but in ‘believing’ as an activity.Added to this we have the phenomenon that Biblical Greek’s ‘present’ tense is really much closer to our ‘present continuous tense’. The tenses in John 10:27, My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: could equally be translated my sheep are hearing my voice, and I am knowing them, and they are following me… This sounds much more like a description whereby we may recognise a sheep, than a guarantee of behaviour for someone designated ‘a sheep’.To ‘hear’ the voice of Jesus does not mean therefore that person is a sheep. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, (Joh 5:28 KJV) That doesn’t mean that ‘all in the graves’ are his sheep, but those who continue to hear His voice are His sheep. If we consider the judgment of the nations in Matthew 25 and the division of sheep from goats based on behaviour we see clearly that ‘sheep’ is not an indelible brand placed on some to guarantee a future destiny, but a judgment of some based upon the pattern of their lives.

I absolutely hate this subject. :-( I have seen a grown man cry over it because of his standpoint - someone said because of what he believed he cheapened the cross. This is MY standpoint:it does not matter.If you are truly living for the Lord, by biblical standards and obeying the Lord it will not matter whether or not you can loose your salvation. Whenever someone tries to engage me in this conversation there is always something at the root of it, other than theological curiosity - it's usually justification of a sinful lifstyle.I never bring one side weighted more than the other when I am mentoring people or discipling people in the Lord - I present the balance: truly pursuing the lord, rejecting sin, submitting to God.Anyway, that's what I believe.

I ask this because I think for so many years I was living under a false assurance of salvation. Here is a little background and maybe some of you can relate to this...If I was to title this, it might be "SPIRITUAL ABORTION".I think that I was an awakened sinner when I "said the sinner's prayer" 20 years ago. I was 16 at the time and I was involved in the OCCULT and was seeking truth. I found Jesus through reading Hal Lindsey's books on end time theology and was "afraid" of still being around when the anti christ was alive. I was afraid of losing my head at the chopping block. Selfish reason? yup! I was seeking the Lord but was not told about sin, or salvation really. A person who shared Christ with me did this. I was seeking Christ, (I think for the wrong reasons 20 years ago) and he proved to me that the Holy Spirit was real by speaking in tounges. Then we went out in the back yard and I prayed a prayer following him (the sinner's prayer) and with sincerity, I was saved, ( in a few minutes ), and was hugged and welcomed into the Family of God. Was I sincere, was this person who prayed with me sincere, I think so, but in error, Because soon after I was still dealing with sin for many years. My salvation was premature like a spiritual abortion and for many, many years I have been living like a Christian has struggled to live with the right heart motive. It has been insanity to say the least, and now, 20 years later, I wonder if my salvation was genuine and if I can go back. Does this make sense?I guess why I am asking this now, is I want to make sure that I am truly a sheep and following Christ. For 20 years it is easy to look like a Christian after being around them. I have seen many people that call themselves Christians, but still live in unrepentant sin and it just isn't right. I too have been one where I have been living in unrepentant sin and not able to have that "on fire" relationship that some Christians live. I need to find out the truth about the Biblical salvation message and I think even though OSAS message is difficult, it needs to be addressed. If so many Christians think they are saved, but really aren't, it's frightening.Doug

Added to this we have the phenomenon that Biblical Greek’s ‘present’ tense is really much closer to our ‘present continuous tense’. The tenses in John 10:27, My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: could equally be translated my sheep are hearing my voice, and I am knowing them, and they are following me… This sounds much more like a description whereby we may recognise a sheep, than a guarantee of behaviour for someone designated ‘a sheep’.And if I might add also..., This sounds much more like a description whereby we may recognise a sheep, than a guarantee in the present of final salvation. Whenever someone tries to engage me in this conversation there is always something at the root of it, other than theological curiosity - it's usually justification of a sinful lifstyle.Christ came (as Bro. Ron quoted the passage) to save us from sin. We cannot be saved from hell until we are first saved from sin. (C.G.F) For a true believer, sin is not their friend. Satan is not their friend. The world is not their friend. If a person be born of God can they take pleasure in sin? Can they befriend the enemy of the God that birthed them by the Spirit? Is sin part of their habitation? Is sin craved by the Sheep? Nay verily! God Bless,-Robert

I need to find out the truth about the Biblical salvation message and I think even though OSAS message is difficult, it needs to be addressed. If so many Christians think they are saved, but really aren't, it's frightening.Yes it is, but that doesn't mean we should shrink from asking the question. This was a frequent theme of A W Tozer

Hey Guys. I just listened to the most amazing message on this subject today. It is called, The Key To Understanding, by Paris Reidhead. What a great message on true salvation! Thought some of you might like to take a listen. Love, Dian.

A most interesting turn on this issue this time around. A search throughout the forum archives would produce many related discussions.Ron, thank you for this language breakdown as well as the explanation of the mind sets that tend to come out of them.Something that has come up before here and if one were to look carefully at, is the verbs Ron is using, they all convey motion.Could wax on forever...'Salvation is a never ending beginning'John is not interested in ‘faith’ as a commodity, but in ‘believing’ as an activity.Reading Doug's thoughts and experience about a 'spiritual abortion' is the meat of the issue. Was there as well, many of us just as likely. Still think the OSAS verbage for lack of a better characterization is just... off. It feels like trying to cram a square peg into a round hole. And, as he stated it is frightening.After yesterdays somewhat emotional comments, left with J_A_Oliver's (Jeffery) thoughts leaving a bit of a sting. Too harsh? Too flippant? Am I now 'waffling'?A bit of explanation. For one, and something hopefully everyone keeps in mind that comes through here. A lot of times we are expressing our hearts here or at least attempting to, not necessarily laying down a dogmatic discourse on 'how things ought to be done'. Am just as sure that 'saying the sinners prayer' has just as much the opposite reaction and results as the problems that we find in it. In general, as it is widely practiced it certainly seems problematic, going back to Doug's thoughts and many others here.Personally, am still living with the results of this....'train of thought?', if I could put it that way. My own loved one's and even friends of the family, can see the outworkings of this. It is extremely difficult to unravel and go about reversing a mindset than to get it straight from the beginning, not perfectly, but just the foundational truths... all of them.Don't know if this a 'root', but there seems to be many tentacles that branch out from a misconception and misapplication of what we also cleverly call 'easy believism'.Have a dear brother who loves the Lord, would preach to a frog, anybody, anytime, anywhere. But he is also struggling mightily with a pot addiction. Contradiction? It gets worse. This has been a stronghold for many, many years. He knows his Bible far better than many I know. Understands fully gospel truth. He also attends still the church that we originally left, a 'mega church' with all it's propensity to WOF types, prosperity... He feels that he needs to stay there perhaps as a 'protest' or maybe even a 'reformer'... See how muddy this is? But there is still more. The other day was talking with him and he is crying out for help. He went to one of the pastors/elders whatever and told them about his addiction. The response? "Claim your deliverance" ............And now he is healed!Wrong. No, not even close. This stuff just breaks my heart. I pray he leaves this 'church' and told him so. By the way, his name is Lou if you feel led to pray for him. He really sincerely loves the Lord I believe, there is just so much confusion and rationalizing and messed up doctrine going on inside him. Maybe this will lead right into where I hoped to tie this together. Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. For a long time this same brother had and perhaps subconsciously still does a misunderstanding of this verse by chopping in half. Justifying his behavior in a quirky and yes muddy way by taking only the latter part to heart; for ye are not under the law, but under grace.. It was almost a mantra for him, an out. And it seems to be what a lot of this whole subject matter can boil down to, building whole doctrines and denominations even, out of, out of context scripture verses. Clippings. I know it's not this simple, but if I had to force it into one word it would be this;Presumption.Being saved, knowing you are saved..OSAS... I understand that the opposite effect is bordering on paranoia if one was to keep pinning away at it.But my sense is that while 'knowing' that I am saved, it almost makes me feel presumptuous in saying that. For the life of me I feel that in that moment when I do see the Lord face to face I am still going to be surprised when He welcomes me into His kingdom...still feel like I want to say IF... even though "I know"....Does that make any sense?

Hi Bro. Mike,"Claim your deliverance"Victory over sin has been a topic I have studied more than any other. Invariably the starting point has to be a desire to be free from any bondage. Yet, when a person is in bondage there is a certain subtle comfort or contentment about that bondage that is generally only overthrown after the sin is committed and the Holy Spirit is bringing conviction of sin. In other words, after the person sins they want deliverance- but leading up to the sin there is a subtle and sinnister cooperation with the temptation almost as a lamb going to the slaughter. I believe (and I'm sure othere will comment here) that the only way we are going to control our fleshly appetites is by being full of the Holy Ghost. The Old Testament promised that the time would come that God would put His Spirit in man and cause them to walk in His commandments. This also plays out in two passages in the New Testament in which we are told to mortify our members which are upon the earth by the Spirit. I have an axiom that states that your victory over sin is proportional to your fulness of the Holy Ghost. Our fulness of the Holy Ghost is directly related to our desire to submit to God. I have preached a sermon that utilized an Abraham My Friend entry about Righteous Lot in 3 different places now (church, revival service, house service) and God has used it to touch hearts. It deals with the issue of desiring "just a little bit of Egypt" coupled with refusal to go to 'the mountain.' This is a spiritually deadly combination, yet it is so often par for the course. Lot simply did not want to be 'that close' to God. He did not want surrender the 'Zoar' type atmosphere where there is a little Egypt and yet a real desire to serve God. God is not abandoned in this scenerio- it is a keeping of God at arms length for the purpose of gratifying other fleshly desires or at least taking in that 'Egyptian atmosphere.' In Lot's case it took him seeing his wife dead and the cities of Sodom go up like a furnace to realize he needed to be on the mountain. He then left Zoar and headed to where God wanted him all along. The problem was it cost him so much to get that revelation. God Bless,-Robert

I'm not sure what I can add to the discussion here but here goes.I used to staunchly believe in OSAS but in light of many scriptures I can no longer believe in it. One of the many things that I've had to lay on the altar were my own pre-conceived notions of things. Now I simply ask the question what does the Word say and then I submit to it.One of the preachers on SI (B.H. Clendennen) estimates that only about 10% of professed Christians are true believers. I don't know the actual number, nor do I believe that he does. My own pastor says that many people have been "spray painted with Jesus." This "Jesus" (I'm using quotes because it's not the real Jesus) doesn't require anything to follow Him. There's no real repentance, there's no death to self, and there's no selling out to Jesus. It's simply an intellectual belief (i.e. a mental assent).Once I fully submit to Jesus, I don't have the luxury of having it my own way in any area of my life.One of the things I have done several months ago and it's time to do it again, is to take inventory of my life with the prayerful question who is Lord of my family, my finances, etc. (Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?” (2 Corinthians 13:5)

Hi Guys. If I may interject my uneducated thoughts here...this is a topic that is near and dear to my heart, mainly because I lived Mike's description of his presumptious friend. Oh God! This whole thing makes me cry. I see it so clearly now, but I can't always put it into words. I know I wasn't saved all those years that I was in the "God's Got A Wonderful Plan For Your Life" gospel. How do I know? Because it was all about me. Did I love God? Some. With my whole heart? Not! I had that awful divided heart. I tell you, it nearly killed me. Now, I see my salvation as a covenant between me and God. If I keep my end of the deal, he keeps his. My end is to exchange my life for his everyday by taking up my cross and following him. The covenant works so long as I continue in it. Jesus can't take my place in death if I take my life back. It's that simple, to me. :-D Love, Dian.