Why do we think of universalists as heretics?

Ever since the big 'Love Wins' controversy I have been studying and pondering universalism, and I have been surprised in my findings. The doctrine of UR (universal reconciliation) seems to me to be just as, if not more, biblical than Calvinism and Arminianism. It has tons of scriptural and historical support, it solves many of the problems we run into with Cal and Arm (ie. Did Jesus die for everybody or just a few?), and it has the strongest view of divine love, most powerful narrative of God's victory over evil, lifts the atoning efficacy of the cross of Christ to the greatest heights, triumphs grace over sin, and inspires worship and hope. It doesn't do away with God's wrath but presents it as restorative rather than merely punitive. It is truly glad tidings of great joy for all people, yet why do we say it's heretical?

I myself am still exploring and discovering, so I do not consider myself a universalism, but am interested in discussing it with my brothers and sisters on SI. Please share your thoughts and be open and honest

Universalism is a doctrine that is not clearly taught in Scripture at all. It is not some happy medium to settle the Calvinism and Arminian debates. It in no way belongs to any branch of Christianity that might claim to adhere to orthodoxy. The Scriptures clearly paint a picture of an eternal place called hell, where there is no relief from the torment of everlasting fire. It is heretical because it betrays a drastic misunderstanding of the holiness, love, and justice of God. And with a fuzzy understanding of these concepts, it completely ignores the clear, emphatic, and often repeated doctrine of the everlasting punishment of the wicked.

No one person spoke more about Satan and Hell than Jesus Christ. One thing you will find out about Universalists is that many if not all also subscribe to the notion that Satan is not a spiritual being. They have to do this in order to make their "Universalism" work.

Why? Because God made us as choosing beings and we derive our spiritual character, behaviour and identity from one of two sources. God or Satan. One cannot create their own spiritual identity as New Agers believe. Atheists believe you can have your own identity apart from a "so-called" God and Satan. This is the lie from of old that "you can be as gods." One must derive their spiritual identity, behaviour and character from a person.

So, on one hand, you cannot say that we derive our spiritual character (as choosing creatures) from God, but then if we do evil then it is just because we chose NOT God. Not true! We chose Satan. You cannot even derive your character and identity from the absence of good. Because that would mean that you created evil and we humans cannot create something that does not exist. Evil does exist and it exists in the person of Satan. When you choose Evil, you are choosing to align yourself with Satan. Plain and simple.

Universalists don't like the fact that Satan exists because then they would have the added burden of proving that God's universal reconciliation will work even for those who choose Satan as their image of character and behaviour. It becomes more difficult for them to say that God will save all mankind even those who choose to derive their character and behaviour and spiritual identity from the one that WILL be in the Lake of Fire.

Jesus said, "You are of your Father the Devil".

So, we either eat of the Tree of Life (abide in Christ) or we eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (abide in Satan) and we will grow the particular fruit from each tree.

Universalism ignores the existence of Hell for all those who align themselves with Satan because they ignore the existence of Satan.

There are several kinds of Universalism and you will find these beliefs in New Age religions, Wicca and various forms of the Occult. They will say that Satan and God share an equal dualism but they don't (Satan is meant to be overcome and we are instructed to overcome evil with good) and that Satan will eventually be saved, too. Other beliefs say that God knows Good and Evil and that Satan is part of Him. But the Bible says there is no evil in God at all. And that when we are tempted we should not say we are tempted of God because He cannot tempt anyone. There are so many various beliefs concerning Universalism that it borders on confusion and I would say it is pure confusion.

Satan's lie to Eve was that God was lying to them and that they would be like Him knowing good and evil. The lie was that they would be like God. But God does not know evil experientally like Adam and Eve were about to know it. God knows Evil by virtue of the fact that it is contrary to His nature. Anything that is contrary to God's nature is Evil. God does not want us to know the difference between good and evil by experiencing evil. Anyway, I digress.

Universalism or Ultimate Reconciliation has been making inroads more and more into mainstream Christianity and it is driven by major changes in our culture (political correctness, don't judge people) to bring the Church into slumber. Afterall, if God has saved us all regardless of how we live, why should we preach Christ or live holy lives? Of course, it is really driven and propagated from the bowels of Hell by Satan himself.

Ask yourself this question:

Do you think God will countenance another rebellion in heaven? Heaven is for those who choose Christ and not Satan. Yes, the world will say that Jesus is very narrowminded. That is true from the world's perspective. When it comes to evil, Jesus is very narrowminded and Satan is very broadminded. Jesus made no apologies in His earthly ministry.

Remember that God created us with only two choices, not three, not four. Good and Evil, Life or Death, Blessing or Cursing, God or Satan, Heaven or Hell.

Pilgrim

KingJimmy,

Thank you for your response. However, I would like to ask if you have ever given universal reconciliation any serious thought? It seems to me that once I removed the 'lens' of doctrinal tradition that I've been taught all my life and just simply read the scriptures, that ETC (eternal concious torment) is not as clearly taught as I thought. Aside from parables and apocalyptic language (revelation) there is not really much evidence for it. In fact the silence of the scriptures on the subject is astounding considering what a terrible fate that would be for one of God's creatures! Why would God not have warned Adam of an eternity of torture for his sin? That , I think, would've been worth mentioning. The OT hints much more at either annihilation or UR than ETC. Also, UR seems to be much more clearly taught in the NT than people like to give credit for (1tim 2:3-6, 1john 2:2,1tim. 4:10, col. 1:19-20... many more).

Also I don't think its just a happy medium between cal and arm, but perhaps the actual solution to the dilemma. That maybe it doesn't make fuzzy the holiness, love and justice of God, but reveals the nature of His atributes so much more clearly! That He truly does love all people, desires to save them, and wont relent until He accomplishes His purpose. Just some thoughts.

Pilgrim, I am on my phone at the time. When I get to a computer I will respond to your comment thanks.

Edit: for clarity (phone auto corrected)

However, I would like to ask if you have ever given universal reconciliation any serious thought?

I consider all things seriously. And I have read about such things in Bible college and elsewhere. But, as in, really serious, as a real possibility? No, never. And I don't intend to for the same reason that I don't seriously consider the claims of a lot of groups that teach things that are clearly false.

It seems to me that once I removed the 'lens' of doctrinal tradition that I've been taught all my life and just simply read the scriptures that ETC (eternal conciliate torment) is not clearly taught

Well, I'm not familiar with your tradition. And although I consider myself as part of a certain theological school of thought (or thoughts), I wasn't raised in the church, and have no loyalty to any particular denomination. So, there isn't really much of a tradition for me to divorce myself from. I was never really indoctrinated with a bent towards anything. I got saved later in my life, started reading the Bible for myself, and after meeting with various affiliations, finally settled down in some churches who I'm mostly in agreement with theologically.

Aside from parables and apocalyptic language (revelation) that there is not really any evidence for it.

I understand how to rightly interpet parables and apocalyptic language, so, and I'm pretty comfortable with such to build my doctrine with. Especially since Christ taught a lot of his theology from the use of parables. But as it is, what you have said here is not true. Without even cracking open my Bible, and just thinking off the top of my head, I can think of how the first five chapters of Romans are dedicated to showing how apart from having a saving faith in Jesus Christ, all men are stand under the condemnation and the wrath of God. Such men are utterly without hope. Later on in the book, in Romans 9-11, Paul talks about how some people are destined to wrath while others are not, and Paul worries over his Jewish brethren and wishes himself to undergo eternal separation from Christ if it would but save his brethren.

And again, without even cracking open my Bible, I appeal to the 6 passages in Hebrews which warn about the dangers of falling away from the faith, and how there awaits nothing but terrifying judgment for those who do.

Time doesn't afford me the opportunity to appeal to what Peter, John, James, and Jude had to say on the subject matter either.

And while the OT doesn't have a lot of teaching on the eternal fate of the wicked, I know for certain that Moses, the Psalms, and Isaiah speak of the matter.

And for what its worth, the "dilemma" of Calvinism and Arminianism isn't solved by universalism. The debate surrounding the two camps has to do with the relationship of election and free will. Even if both schools of thought conceeded that everybody will be saved in the end, that still doesn't sidestep the issue of election and free will.

Okay, finally to a computer!

But as it is, what you have said here is not true. Without even cracking open my Bible, and just thinking off the top of my head, I can think of how the first five chapters of Romans are dedicated to showing how apart from having a saving faith in Jesus Christ, all men are stand under the condemnation and the wrath of God.

Here is where everyone misunderstands what the majority of Universalist's actually believe. You are absolutely right about the first five chapters of Romans. You are absolutely right that faith in Jesus Christ is the only way for someone to be saved. Evangelical Universalist's, and especially myself, would never deny that, ever! But the question is "will God persist until all men profess Christ as Lord to the saving of their soul?"

Romans 5:18 goes on to say, "So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men." (NASB)

Paul also mentions over in Phillipians that one day "every knee will bow, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the father." Could that be to the saving of all men in light of Romans 10:9 "if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;"?

So a different understanding of these scriptures is no reason to label someone a heretic.

Such men are utterly without hope.

"Three things will last forever—faith, hope, and love—and the greatest of these is love." 1Cor. 13:13 (NLT)

I know that could be a weak translation, but will God create a situation without hope? After all "His mercy endures forever".

Later on in the book, in Romans 9-11, Paul talks about how some people are destined to wrath while others are not, and Paul worries over his Jewish brethren and wishes himself to undergo eternal separation from Christ if it would but save his brethren.

You're right Paul does sorrow for them, they will face judgment, Paul does wish to be cursed (giving you the benefit of the doubt, he could mean eternally) from Christ, but never says that could happen to him.

But continue to read on and Paul regains his hope when he says, Romans 11:26, "and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, 'THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB." and Romans 11:32 "For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all."

And then ending Ch.11 with this great declaration v.36 "For from Him and through Him and to Him are ALL things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen."

Could he be referring to fact that God will restore ALL things one day? (Acts 3:21)

And for what its worth, the "dilemma" of Calvinism and Arminianism isn't solved by universalism. The debate surrounding the two camps has to do with the relationship of election and free will. Even if both schools of thought conceeded that everybody will be saved in the end, that still doesn't sidestep the issue of election and free will.

The issue is also "does God get what God wants?" Will His purposes be accomplished? The Calvinist says yes,but He doesn't really want to save everybody. The Arminian must say no, He wants to save everybody, but can't. The Universalist says yes, God will acclomplish His desire to save all men!

My aim is only to defend Universalism as NON-HERETICAL. It has a very much BIBLICAL support. There is also so much more to be said, but I will save for further conversation.

God's peace,
Willy

bro-willy. Respectfully, you are stretching the scriptures pretty severely to get where you are.

Respectfully again... This is what a lot of the cults (JW, LDS, etc...) do. They take parts of scripture and try to twist them into what they want them to say.

My friend. I do have to ask you to please, please, please pray on this. There are eternal consequences for actions. If maybe one "little one" can stumble from reading what you write, what scriptual fate awaits you?

Pilgrim,

Christian Universalism, Evangelical Universalism or whatever you want to call it, does not deny the reality of Satan or Hell. It is the belief that Satan may have deceived man, but he will NOT have the ultimate victory, because God will eventually, THROUGH CHRIST, reconcile His entire creation back to Himself and restore it to His good pleasure (Colossians 1:15-20).

Afterall, if God has saved us all regardless of how we live, why should we preach Christ or live holy lives?

Are you saying that the fear of eternal torment in Hell is the only reason you preach and live holy? I don't think you really believe that. Evangelical Universalist's believe in hell and judgment, just that's God's purpose for it isn't to eternally torture His creature, but to burn away the dross, purify, and restore them (save them by fire 1Cor. 3:15).

God is "making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth." Eph. 1:9-10

Hi bro_willy,

Do you believe Satan is a spiritual being?

Do you believe that we are either conformed to the image of Christ or the image of Satan?

How are those that are conformed to the image of Satan and die in that image/condition then become regenerated spiritually after they are dead and become part of the family of the redeemed? Where is that teaching?

Thanks,
Pilgrim

The Bible says, "It is appointed unto man once to die and then the judgement". Heb 9:27

Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Please note that Heb 9:28 says "UNTO THEM THAT LOOK FOR HIM".

bro-willy, not all men do look unto Him. Most reject Him.

Jesus Christ and eternal life are synonymous terms so if you reject Jesus Christ you reject eternal life. If you are not possessing eternal life right now (Jesus Christ) then you won't magically get it after you die. Eternal Life is SOMEONE you apprehend in this life with your own two feet on the ground. The dying and the giving is the Lord's but the receiving must be done by us.

Jesus waits to be RECEIVED and does not force Himself on men.
John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, AND YE RECEIVE ME NOT: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Would you deny the fact that many men reject Jesus Christ?

bro-willy. Respectfully, you are stretching the scriptures pretty severely to get where you are.

Respectfully again... This is what a lot of the cults (JW, LDS, etc...) do. They take parts of scripture and try to twist them into what they want them to say.

My friend. I do have to ask you to please, please, please pray on this. There are eternal consequences for actions. If maybe one "little one" can stumble from reading what you write, what scriptual fate awaits you?

Sincerely Thank you Miccah! I don't take this lightly, and if what you say is true then I am stumbling and I need help. I would just like to dig, and discuss, and ask questions. Please if you feel that way participate in the discussion. Let us reason together. But what if we are separating, calling heretics, and warring against brothers and sisters (Universalists) who Jesus said we should be loving and fellowshipping with. Will that not be just as bad for those who sow discord among the brethren?

I'm not going to get into the discussion really, there are plenty of others that will do a much better job than I, but i would urge you to really put your scriptures in context. 1 Cor. 3:15 is not talking about people going to hell and being restored/purified, but about the works that we do will be made manifest one day and if they are works of our own they will burn away, but if works towards God they will be rewarded.

Pilgrim,

Yes, I believe Satan is a real life spiritual being, seeking whom he may devour, seeking to claim men as his own, but could it be that the stronger man has (or will) tie up the strong man and carry off all his possesions? That Jesus will be the ultimate Victor and reconcile all people to Himself? Could it be that He will leave the 99 and go after the 1 until He finds it, and not stop until He accomplishes what He has set out to do?

Do you believe all men bear God's image? That God loves all men, and desires all to be saved?

Yes I know men reject Christ now, and so do Universalist's, but what about the promise that EVERY knee will bow, and EVERY tongue confess Jesus Christ as Lord?

I am not claiming to be a Universalist.

But wouldn't that be a wonderful thing if it is true?

Do you not long for all men to be saved?

Let's study the scriptures to see if maybe we've missed something!

I'm not going to get into the discussion really, there are plenty of others that will do a much better job than I, but i would urge you to really put your scriptures in context. 1 Cor. 3:15 is not talking about people going to hell and being restored/purified, but about the works that we do will be made manifest one day and if they are works of our own they will burn away, but if works towards God they will be rewarded.

Thank you. I will study that out. My mind is being fried right now trying to respond to everyone's post lol. Perhaps I shouldn't have quoted that without looking further into it.

Thank you. I will study that out. My mind is being fried right now trying to respond to everyone's post lol. Perhaps I shouldn't have quoted that without looking further into it.

But that goes the same for both sides. Other's are quoting scriptures to mean 'eternal torment' are not in such a context, and actually say no such thing!

Also this warning if we do not take this discussion seriously: Imagine the consequences of telling people God will send them to a place of burning torment, without hope, for all eternity, if it were not so!

Also to those who are arguing for Eternal Conscious Torment. I hope you do not pass a person on the street without warning them of such a fate. I hope you do not dare look a person in the eye and fail to mention the what lies ahead for them! What a horrible thing, what lack of compassion and love to not warn every human being of the dreadful, dark, painful, hopeless future that awaits them if they do not turn from their sin!

I shudder to think such a weight could be on my shoulders.

That is why I am very serious about being serious about studying Universalism.

Quote: """Do you believe all men bear God's image? That God loves all men, and desires all to be saved?"""

Image and Nature are two things different. Image is breathe of Life, no nature.

Nature is God given by birth. Christ birthed in the Believer is From a Father, not a creator.

If Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world, why did He only choose 8 to come through the flood, why not universally save all.

God must put a nature in His own son's, as He did with His only begotten, Jesus Christ and it is His nature, Jesus Christ that is birthed in every son of God. The Father chooses who He will be a Father to, a creator gives life and shows that created being cannot choose the nature of the Father, man can only choose nature by another created being, which was satan, when Adam chose to believe a lie and we all became the son's of satan, birds of a feather flocking together and it takes a God Nature to produce son's of God nature, of whom He is a Father. Universlaists will have to take it up with God, of why they were not saved with all men as they claim. "Who are you O' man who tells God what to do". The potter is the Father of all that are birthed with His nature in them, Jesus Christ, born again in them, are born of the incorruptable Seed of the Father, "THE WORD" John 1. Fit for destruction are all those born/created into another created being by choice, satan. Every knee will bow to Jesus Christ but every knee will not be a son of God.

In Christ: Phillip by our Father giving birthe to His Son in me and making me a son also. God's choice, not mine. A father cannot consult with his offspring until he is born and can then understand his own nature. Satan hides his fatherhood, God reveals His nature in the believer. "Christ in you the hope of Glory" "It is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me" "The life I now live I live by the faith of the Son of God." Col 1:26-28 Gal 2:20 He who lives is not my life and nature, not universalism salvation but Eph 1:4. by birthing from a Father, who is "Our Father".

Hi bro_willy,

Of course it would be wonderful if all men are saved. But, that implies that all men would repent and love Jesus Christ. No one desires that more than the Lord. But, God proved to Adam and Eve that He keeps His promises. Yes?

When they sinned they died immediately, just as God promised. They died spiritually and it would only be a matter of time before they died physically.

Every knee will bow some day. That is certainly a promise that will come to pass. Some will bow to Him and do it willingly just as they willingly follow the Lord now.

Others will refuse to bow to Him just as they do now, however they will be unable to resist bowing to Him and acknowledging He is truly Lord, someday. Some will bow hoping it is not too late to be saved.

Pilgrim

bro_willy,

I missed something. God does not love all men. That is a false gospel as far as I can tell. God hates sinners and His wrath abides on them unless they run to His Son, Jesus Christ.

Psa 7:11 God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.

He does not hate them as creatures or living beings but as sinners. As men that have aligned themselves with Satan and against His Son, Jesus Christ. If God love the sinner then there is no need for a mediator and there should be peace between men and God. But we both know that is not correct.

Can John 3:36 be any clearer to you? If you have the Son, you have Life, if you don't have the Son you don't have life and God's wrath will be on you. Does this say that God loves sinners? God loves those who have put their trust in Jesus but desires that all men will be saved. That does mean they will be, though.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

I think if you would re-study and ask the Holy Spirit to help you to understand what Jesus came to save us from, that you would see.

I will be praying for you but I think there is ample information on the Web for you to look at and ultimately what you believe will come down to your own heart before the Lord.

God bless,
Pilgrim

God does not love all men.

Pilgrim,

I do disagree with you for it was because God so loved the world that He sent His Son!

There is much more to be said about this, and I will respond perhaps Monday.

Thank you everyone for joining the discussion.

I am out for the weekend.

God's grace and peace to all.

Bless you too, bro.

You may want to go over these scriptures.

Does God hate anyone? The answer is yes.

•Psalm 5:5, "The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; THOU DOST HATE ALL WHO DO INIQUITY,"

•Psalm 11:5, "The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence HIS SOUL HATES"

•Lev. 20:23, "Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I shall drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I HAVE ABHORRED THEM."

•Prov. 6:16-19, "There are six things which THE LORD HATES, yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: 17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, feet that run rapidly to evil, 19 A false witness who utters lies, and one who spreads strife among brothers."

•Hosea 9:15, "All their evil is at Gilgal; indeed, I CAME TO HATE THEM THERE! Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of My house! I will love them no more; All their princes are rebels."

Universalists will say that God loves everyone, but the Bible would disagree and God's nature and character does, too. He only loves those who put their faith in His Son.

This is how serious sin is and how much God hates it.

"Sin is not to be ignored, nor minimised. It is the most patent fact in life, the darkest experience in the history of the race. It is the root of all the world's tragedies. It is that which makes "conscience a thousand swords," "the torture of an inward hell," "the worm that doth begnaw the soul." (James M. Campbell. The Heart of Gospel: A Popular Exposition of the Atonement. Fleming H. Revell Co. 1907. pg 47.)

God is very serious about sin and will not allow that which is unholy, perverted, evil and unregenerate to fellowship with Him and His children for eternity.

Bro_Willy,

The scriptures are pretty clear on this and I think that you really have to do harm to God's character and to twist the scriptures into showing ultimate reconciliation.

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Respectfully,
Pilgrim

Quote: """I do disagree with you for it was because God so loved the world that He sent His Son!"""

There is a stipulation for this Love sent into the world.

He that believeth on Him is not condemned, but he that believeth not is condemned already.

This is the condemnation; we don't believe. The light came into the world and men loved darkness rather than light. because all our deeds are evil.

They don't want to come to the light because their evil will be reproved. But He that doeth the truth comes to the light and that all his deeds are wrought in God.

Which no man can do unless God brings him to the light that we might believe.

They that are in darkness are not compatable with those that are in The Light, How could they be saved? God is true and He only gives rebirth to those He brings to the Light for none would come of their own accord, and none will be lost that are given to Jesus Christ who is the Light. He came to His own and they received Him not and crucified Him on a Cross.

In Christ: Phillip