Woman Teaching, Minor or Major doctrine?

I am currently trying to find a church. I am pretty knowledgeable on major and minor doctrines (by that I mean the essentials versus the non essentials as it relates to the soteriology). However, I ran into a congregation whose pastor seems pretty level headed concerning the gospel, but he allows a woman to teach in his Sunday school. Do you think this is good reason to not join a church? How about leave one? If so, why?

Thanks for your help.

Wow. In my opinion, tough question.

I will say this. I believe that scripture says that a man is to lead in the palce of worship and in small groups.

At the same time I would be blind to say that there are not women who are great in a teaching role.

The question always boils down to this (with me), Does ability (as in a women preaching...good at times I may add) trump order (as in scripture teaching that it is a man's place to teach and not a women).

Order wins out.

What ever you do, please obey the Spirit as He leads you.

Blessings!

warriorofgod wrote:
However, I ran into a congregation whose pastor seems pretty level headed concerning the gospel, but he allows a woman to teach in his Sunday school. Do you think this is good reason to not join a church? How about leave one? If so, why?

God bless,
Lisa

Q. Woman Teaching, Minor or Major doctrine?

A. Major doctrine

1 Timothy 2:11-14 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

The greek word hēsuchia is translated into the english word silence in verses 11 and 12 above. This greek word is used only 4 times in the New Testament. It is also translated silence in Acts 22:2. It is translated quietness in 2 Thess. 3:12.

A woman may be in the transgression as she assumes the role of teaching the Word of God in the assembly(church),yet the assembly(especially the men) is in the transgression for hearkening to her.

Isaiah 3:12 As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they who lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.

It all goes back to Genesis;

Genesis 3:17 "And to Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened to the voice of thy wife..."

Genesis 16:2 And Sarai said to Abram, Behold, now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee go in to my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai.

The subtilty of the serpent is behind this Major erroneous doctrine of women in leadership roles. It's not Eve alone being beguiled now,but whole households and assemblies.

2 Cor. 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

1 Cor. 14:34 Let yourp women be keeping silent in the assemblies, for it has not been permitted to them to be speaking, but to be subjecting themselves, just as also the Law says. But if they desire to learn anything, let them be questioning their own husbands at home, for it is disgraceful [or, shameful] [for] women to be speaking in an assembly.

1 Cor. 14:34 Let the women in the ecclesias hush, for it is not permitted to them to speak, but let them be subject, according as the law, also is saying, "Now, if they want to learn anything, let them be inquiring of their own husbands at home, for it is a shame for a woman to be speaking in the ecclesia."

Q. Do you think this is good reason to not join a church? How about leave one? If so, why?

A. See all of the above

Hearken to the voice of His Spirit in His Word.
Do it now.
Don't delay.

May God lead you to the greener pastures.

Savannah wrote:
A woman may be in the transgression as she assumes the role of teaching the Word of God in the assembly(church),yet the assembly(especially the men) is in the transgression for hearkening to her.

All your verses are like the ones who are against tongues use to try and prove that tongues died away with the last Apostle... and they are too late to tell me because I’ve had the gifts of tongues for twenty-five years.

And you are too late to tell me that women can’t preach because even as Mark 16.17 says “And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.” I am a witness of the Lord using women and then confirming with her word with signs following for the men that was there as well as for the women.

God bless,
Lisa

Lysa.

Your speaking ability vs. order. Do women have the ability to teach? Yes. Should they be teaching men? No. Godly order.

It is scriptual that women do not teach men, and to say that it is not scriptual, is to teach against scripture itself.

As a female I would feel uncomfortable to have a female teach a mixed group of adult men and women.

Women are also given the gift of teaching but it is to be done in its proper place. Titus 2 gives us guidelines for it. 1Corinthians 11 teaches us what a woman should do to enhance her ability to prophesy. The Scripture has a lot to say on this issue. But having said that, it does behoove a female to be a student of the WORD lest anyone, including males would work to lead her astray via false doctrine or anything else that tempts a person.

There are too many males (and females) in position of leadership who are there mostly as administrators or to exercise authority over others who know nothing about walking with the LORD. This makes submission for the godly woman very difficult when this become obvious. When this happens you will just have to lean back in the arms of the Savior and bask in his protective care and leadership.

Warrior, to answer your question, I would keep looking, leaning on the Holy Spirit for guidance. He is more interested in you finding the right brotherhood then you are.

God bless.

Miccah wrote:
Your speaking ability vs. order. Do women have the ability to teach? Yes. Should they be teaching men? No. Godly order.

It is scriptual that women do not teach men, and to say that it is not scriptual, is to teach against scripture itself.

In my previous post, I was explaining that I have experienced firsthand God confirming a woman’s preaching (word) with signs following; the majority of men don’t even have that in their ministry. I don't know why God chose these women but I know that He did.

If God was a stickler like you seem to think He is, I daresay He would not have confirmed her word with signs, now would He? So that proves to me that He doesn’t get near bent out of shape about it as you people (who are against it), seem to; so I’m not getting bent out of shape either. (I say that with the upmost respect and not smart-alecky)

God bless you,
Lisa

I am sure you already know the scriptures which absolutely forbid such heresies and I see many of those scriptures have been posted by someone else as well in case if you forgot. If you think the foundational commanded order of Christian men and women is a minor doctrine which is acceptable by you to be disobeyed shamelessly or reinterpreted as so many people do on so called Christian forums, then you will no doubt go to that church. I would never enter it.

Everyone must choose to stand for something, or he will stand for anything and more and more be molded into the thinking and unbiblical philosophies of the world, or the shameless manipulations of heretics.

2 Cor 11:14 Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness

Hey Lysa, :-)

Why did the Lord use a donkey to speak to Balaam? It was because Balaam's disobedience. The Lord used what He would to get through to Balaam.

Does the Lord do this now? I would think so, yet, I do not believe (scriptually) that this is the way that the Lord wants things to be done. I think that when men stand up and start being Godly men, we will see a great reduction in the amount of women teaching over men, thus moving mankind back into the harmony that the Lord established between men and women. Since we are fallen, the Lord extends mercy unto us in so many different ways.

Again sister. I do not believe that it is about ability. As you have stated, many women have the ability to teach, preach and such, but that it is not in the order of how the Lord established it from the beginning.

Blessings sister. I do love you in Christ. :-)

Many members on SI believe that today’s churches are facing spiritual darkness. So, you can expect to see numerous flaws in every church, and you will have to decide which ones you can live with, and which ones you can’t live with.

Factors you might consider are: scriptural rootedness, the church’s effectiveness in community ministry, its success in making mature believers, or its ability to nurture children, heal broken marriage or addictions. Music may be a key factor, or legalism… The list could go on and on and on.

Early in his Christian life, Rees Howells, a man who became well known for his prayer life, decided that he would not join any church where God was not answering prayer. That was his most important criteria.

Then there is your purpose for joining a church. If your aim is to serve and edify the people, then which flaws might be a hindrance to your sense of calling?

You are the one who must decide what flaws you can live with and what flaws you cannot accept. Your thread title may suggest what is the most critical factor for you. And yet it may be that God can use and teach you in a church even with this most noticeable “flaw”.

Diane

Thank you all for your inputs. I have taken all your answers into consideration. Though I don't think women teaching is in the major doctrine area (by that I mean it interfere's with soteriology), I do believe it is important to follow Gods created order. For many, this is a much debated subject, but to me the answer is obvious that a woman should not teach over men. I was just never faced with having to bend or "accept" that in a possible church home because I feel that the church is as good as it's going to get for now. Anyway, thank you for the inputs and prayers.

By the way, please don't confront my doctrinal stance by quoting me and countering it. I am not interested in that in this thread. I am simply trying to gain wisdom on whether or not I should go to this church. God bless you all. Love you guys.

The three Major passages which address the subject of this thread are:

1) 1 Corinthians 11:2-16
2) 1 Corinthians 14:33-38
3) 1 Timothy 2:11-15.

In each of these,God's called apostle,Paul,is inspired by the Spirit of Messiah Who created the world to bring our hearts and minds back to the [Genesis]beginning. He does so to show us that this teaching is in accord with the order of the creation account.

1 Cor. 11:7-9 For indeed a man ought not to be having the head covered, being [the] image and glory of God, but a woman is [the] glory of a man. For man is not from woman, but woman from man. [see Gen 2:21-23] For also man was not created for the sake of the woman, but woman for the sake of the man. [see Gen 2:18]

1 Cor. 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches; for it is not permitted to them to speak: but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

Note: Re: "...they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law." Paul is referencing Genesis [the beginning] 3:16 where God says,, "thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee". Such is significant of God's appointed authority,rule and government. That which is contrary to that obedience and subjection is no less than rebellion. All such who usurp such authority are in transgression of His Holy Law and Order of women unto men.

1 Tim. 2:13 for Adam was first formed, then Eve.

God has a created order and has set not only the stars in their place,and boundaries for the waters,but for men and women as well. And none can move the stars or the waters but God,nor should there be any attempt by us to alter that authority structure God established for men and women at the time of creation. Any who are of such a mind stand guilty before their Creator.

The objection that these passages are culturally conditioned,and consequently rejected as such, are also removed by Paul when he says, "that
the things which I write to you are the commandments of
the Lord"(1 Corinthians 14:37).

To those who come up with words such as, "And you are too late to tell me that women can’t preach...", my answer is that you are the one who is too late. The Eternal One and His Genesis are before you.

And as one other poster has stated,it's not a question of ability. We are addressing transgressing God's Law and Command from creation.

I'd also reply to such contrary statements to this subject as this, "I am a witness of the Lord using women...", by saying as another poster has also alluded to,that God is above His Law and may make a donkey speak if He will as an exception.

Finally,to those guilty ones who are attempting to trump Scripture with experience,or who may be undermining God's creation order(ignorantly or not I do not know),I say to you consider the above,and also these following words:

It is very plain that he who modifies the teachings of the Word of God in the smallest particular at the dictation of any man-made opinion has already deserted the Christian ground, and is already, in principle, a heretic. The very essence of heresy is that the modes of thought and tenets originating elsewhere than in the Scriptures of God are given decisive weight when they clash with the teachings of
God. (BW)

Although the scripture doth lay a great blot upon women,
and cautioneth man to beware of these fantastical and unstable spirits, yet it limiteth man in his censure: She is only then to be rejected and rebuked, when she doth things unworthy her place and calling. (J. Bunyan)

If anyone doesn't believe that women can teach or preach should then stay FAR away from them!

God bless you all,
Lisa

WarrierofGod, I would be unfair to you if I withheld my own testimony on the matter.

Years ago I was in an evangelical church that strongly opposed female preachers (unless they were missionaries). In time God moved me out, and planted me squarely were I never dreamed I would be: In a church on the other side of the tracks: I was hired as their music director in a rather liberal church. In time, I was invited to preach – why? It was because, apparently, my faith, knowledge, and leadership capacity was perceived as authentic. Mind you, I studied hard and prayed hard – not just for me but for my church family. Oh how I love them!!!

This congregation is definitely “gentile” territory. Conservative believers would be horrified to see what kind of sins I walk amidst every Sunday – even the sin of unbelief.

Not only that - I get invited to preach elsewhere - in the most liberal denomination in Canada. They even ordain homosexuals! Yet the congregation keeps asking me back to preach. Why? Because they are starving for food – and they have found a way to get some.

The caution I set before you, WarrierofGod, has less to do with any church than with yourself. In your concern over matters that trouble your conscience, (and there will be many!) you will be tempted to give priority to the letter of the law to such a degree that the spirit of that law is overshadowed. And then you will fail to live God's calling and purpose for your presence in that church family.

Regarding this gender matter, there is a lack of dialogue related to the spirit behind the “laws”. Not many (on either side of the “tracks”)look beyond the surface. It's far easier simply to go by rules.

Overall, it is always wise to keep God’s highest law in the spotlight: the law of God’s redemptive love for humanity. And as my testimony bears out, that can happen in the context of order and submission to authority even in our “apostate” churches.

Diane

How many MEN here who say a woman should not teach men have listened to a teaching by a woman of God and have learned something? And even helped greatly in their walk?

I have.

I will listen to Jackie Pullinger's teachings anytime just to name one Holy Ghost filled, Believer who knows the Lord and His ways.

Does she exercise authority over me? Not that I can think of.

A woman in Christ has the Spirit of God just like a man. There is neither male nor female in Christ.

If you get legalistic about this then SI would have to take down all their teachings by women, because I guarantee you that many men have listened to many of the teachings by these servants of the Lord (and been blessed, I might add).

Pilgrim

Diane,

Just read your post and it was excellent!!

This is just one more of those instances where we miss the Spirit of the letter and could short change ourselves and others. The letter by itself always kills.

I for one am supremely blessed that SI posts some annointed teachings by Sisters in the Lord and I would not want them to take them down because some did not approve.

Your post contained a good teaching in it as well as many other posts by sisters. There may even be those who don't care for sisters posting either.

My point is that we all teach, when we communicate but when we communicate we don't necessarily exercise authority over others.

I am not concerned whether a teaching is by a man or woman. I listen to it and ask if it is from God.

Pilgrim

Thank you for your uplifting words, Pilgrim. I would like to expand on one of your statements:

but when we communicate we don't necessarily exercise authority over others.

Then again, authority in preaching is vital. Without it the listener sees no need to take the message seriously. If a preacher’s message does not reflect authority in ways that demonstrate credibility, the preacher is merely presenting a nice talk. If a female’s message cannot be accepted as any more than a nice talk, because she is female, she is better to remain silent. That’s better, I believe, than allowing the function of authority to be mocked, or her testimony to be discredited. It does no one any good.

This, to me, is one of MANY REASONS why a debate over whether females can or can’t preach/teach is pointless. Besides, such a debate merely reflects a legalistic frame of thinking. It’s all about what someone can and can’t do. That is an immature level of morality. Don’t get caught up in it!!!! Frankly, a congregation’s view on the matter is not necessarily related to the people's level of spiritual maturity. (in my experience)

One more comment on authority: Our society is desperately in need of authority – not merely of those with designated positions of authority, but those who demonstrate genuine authority in their lives. Wouldn’t you rather receive counsel from someone who really does know his stuff than someone who has the position but is an airhead on the subject?

Likewise, wouldn’t you rather see all Christian women become mature in Christ, showing evidence of spiritual authority through their lives - in spirit and truth and Christian submission? That, I believe is a far more important priority than the issue of roles in the church. Imagine how that would turn our churches upside down for Jesus – never mind our families!!!

How's that for food for thought, WarriorofGod?

Diane

This teaching be John MacArthur helped me immensely. Maybe it could help you all: http://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/54-17/gods-high-calling-for-women-part-4

Hey there Diane,

I missed this post of yours. Got to get to work and will reply later. Great points.

Pilgrim