No need for conviction of sin AFTER salvation.

Hi Guys,

I would like some comment on the above statement and some further insight on this particular statement and where it has come from.

I was recently at a large Pentecostal church where the speaker said that the holy spirit only convicts us of sin before we are saved, however after we are saved we are only convicted of our righteousness. His intent was to say that we should not be condemed by our sin, which is the work of our enemy however he is thoughing out conviction as well.

He also said if your are not living a life that is righteous and are having problems with sin, it does not matter because God sees you as perfect anyway and it only means that you are not recieving all that you could.

To put this into context, the church has come from a strong Pentecostal properity background, notice the focus on "recieving". His assistant pastor the following week made the statement in keeping with the pastors teaching. "God only sees your destiny"

I sent him an email requesting we chat stating that if sin is of no matter in the the new testament then we would need to tear out most of Pauls letters as most of them had warnings and instruction about sin in the church.

His response was to graciously let me know he is willing to unpack John 16: 8-11 for me (to understand conviction of sin before and righteousness after?). Obviously there is no support for this in context or even infered.

I would greatly appreciate some information on the erroneous use of this text and where it has come from as I wish to assist this guy to see the problem with the Disney or soft gospel. i am aware of the Once saved always saved teaching, however this is taking things to a whole new level.

This is, I believe, the spirit of antichrist in the Church which is drawing souls into the false church or in fear of sounding melodramatic, the whore of babylon. If this is in fact so then a clear and loud call to battle I believe is needed, in another post I will tell you more about a documentary I wish to do to expose it, but with your prayful advice and guidance as I wish to work with others of a similar mind.

Hope you all had a great new year.

Regards Oskar

QUOTE:
"No need for conviction of sin AFTER salvation."

Never heard of it.

My first reaction after reading it was "LORD! have mercy!" and I mean it.

Wonder what the next absurd doctrine will be?

It seems as though the devil is working a fine job in perverting Believers - he doesn't even have to resort to persecution to get rid of 'em.

"Lord, have mercy!"

Groan!

Most people believe nonsense, and I say that looking in a mirror! Think about what you believe to be true, then think about the percentage of people in this world who agree with you. For most of us- probably way less than 1%!

This is a little off track, but I believe the church is best served when there is a cadre of mature men (and probably women) who share in the teaching responsibilities. The above mentioned pulpit blather should be confronted as heresy or just stupid, as it has not been thought through or subjected to a legitimate study of the word. Also it makes no sense!

But is there anyone in that church to make a challenge? Probably not.

Just like we're doing here, challenge your pastor when his teaching strays. He needs it, and the people need it.

When I teach, I like to introduce whatever I have with the invitation that if you the hearer (reader) feel that I have missed the letter and spirit of the Word, please let me know.

As Paul said, we destroy arguments and any proud obstacle that exalts itself against the knowledge of Christ.

Be iron, and sharpen other people's iron. And when you hear truth better than what you currently believe, grab hold of it!

You need to pray for him and ask God to open his eyes to his own sin. Obviously this man has sin in his life he is trying to preach around.

God bless,
Lisa

This is, I believe, the spirit of antichrist in the Church which is drawing souls into the false church or in fear of sounding melodramatic, the whore of babylon. If this is in fact so then a clear and loud call to battle I believe is needed, in another post I will tell you more about a documentary I wish to do to expose it, but with your prayful advice and guidance as I wish to work with others of a similar mind.

Brother there are posters in SI who believe in such teachings, that God is going to look into Jesus instead of looking into us so we do not need to worry about our sinful life. They even believe the teachings of Jesus is OT and in NT we do not need to follow it. This is a lie. In recent times God has put so much burden in my heart against such teachings, though i have not heard it from any church, I have read it here in SI, it really hurts me. I have spent few sleepless hours thinking about this deception.
I believe it is a problem with people extending God's promise and they think they are doing right by extending it. This is not faith, faith is to believe in what God has promised for you and not to extend his promise beyond what he has given.
We should not confuse this with 'once Saved is Saved for ever' theology, it is not the same. Though I am not a believer of this theology, I have a respect for it, but I have zero respect for this, 'I am already made perfect in Jesus so I can live as I want' theology.

I am willing to help you in anyway I can to fight against this growing evil. I feel we have a common burden.

Quote: """'I am already made perfect in Jesus so I can live as I want' theology."""

This is only a half truth, I am made perfect in Christ, by His Spirit that is my new birth. The living as I want is the untruth, and epitomy of the Devils lie, as always. I am perfect (((((IN CHRIST))))), but not in self, this is why I labour, striving according to His working in me. That is most certainly not living as always, in sin. "It does matter much." Not! What a price was paid, The Cross, not so I can live as always. The price that was paid to give us a new nature, the nature of God in Christ Jesus, does not allow for sin in the Life of Christ that is now in us. If Christ be in us, how can we make the purchased posessition a dwelling with sin, Let us be conformed to His Image, and strive to be perfect as He is perfect. Knowing there is no condemnation for those that are in Christ. I don't want to sin, never, even in this body of flesh, I don't want to sin, but if I do, we have an advocate with the Father and 1 John 1:9 applies to cleans from all unrighteousness.

Yes I am perfect in Christ, but that does not give me permission to sin and not receive conviction and dicipline unto cleansing and new life in Christ, who loved me and gave Himself that I might be conformed to His Image, which most certainly is no provision, or permission to sin and get away with it.

In Christ: Phillip

"I was recently at a large Pentecostal church where the speaker said that the holy spirit only convicts us of sin before we are saved, however after we are saved we are only convicted of our righteousness."

If you have a chance to speak with him, ask him why 5 of the 7 churches who received "letters" from the Lord in the Revelation are told to, "repent." These are clearly post-resurrection, Christian assemblies who were confronted for blatant sin.

2 Corinthians 7 is another important passage on the subject of Christians experiencing coviction of sin and their subsequent repentance.

Grace and peace,
Matthew

QUOTE:
"They even believe the teachings of Jesus is OT and in NT we do not need to follow it. This is a lie. In recent times God has put so much burden in my heart against such teachings, though i have not heard it from any church, I have read it here in SI, it really hurts me. I have spent few sleepless hours thinking about this deception."

You are not the only one...it seems to me that SI has gone to seed. It is NOT the forum it used to be where the WORD of God was held as the final authority and respected in issues of life.

Yes, I am sick, really sick...makes me cry.

This Doctrine falls on the other side of Legalism.. Antinomianism (No Law).. We must remember God's will is we be conformed to the Image to His Son Jesus.. God's will is our Sanctification..That We would grow in Grace and in the Spirit..
If the Holy Spirit lives in us guess what he wants to make us be? ... Holy ( according to the standard that God requires, not man)
Sanctification is a life long, hard work.. praise God, for his His Spirit.. Convicts me of Sin, empowers me to fight sin, and comforts me in my Battle, and seals us unitll our bodies are glorifed..
andy

This is a teaching of Joseph Prince.

it seems to me that SI has gone to seed. It is NOT the forum it used to be where the WORD of God was held as the final authority and respected in issues of life.

Yes, I am sick, really sick...makes me cry.

You are correct ginnyrose. I too feel and see it. What a falling away it has become...

Hi Guys, my post was to bring attention and a battle cry against this heretical teaching. I understand that there must be people from all over christendom on this site however to encourage you there is not another place where I have found like support.

Not sure what it is like in the states and other places however this is the closest thing to home that I have at the moment and really appreciate it.

Maybe I should have started the post with my support for SI. Thanks for your responses.God Bless Oskar

"The word being the final authority", just seeing that in print is such a refreshing thought. Thank you and God Bless. Oskar

I actually have heard brothers and sisters emphasize this and deflect the Truth in this direction. I did not think it was an actual teaching. I thought it rather a function (remnant), of the double-minded, sin nature or immaturity (or some such).

Scripture floods my mind.

This belongs in a message on WHY REVIVAL TARRIES.

This may also contribute to the lack of THE FEAR OF GOD

The war is in our minds. Sin begins its death march when our minds are carried by our own lust, and gives birth to sin and death.

God has povided for this by giving us the Mind of Christ, and the Holy Spirit to bring all that Jesus said to the renewing of our minds, this by itself convicts of sin.

Law and Grace "don't mix"? They must or we will never understand how to be perfect in Christ. If Grace is the unmerited favour given to us by the birth of Jesus Christ in us by the incorruptable Seed of the Father, that sets us free from the Law, then Grace must in recipracal strength give us the power to make Gods Law perfect in us. If we are no longer under the curse of the Law, but we must obey Its commands to make us perfect in Christ, then Grace must be able to accomplish this perfection in the Law present in our lives by the Perfect fulfillment of the Law which is Christ in you the Hope of Glory. Grace to keep the Law.

I believe that God has accomplished Pure Grace and Pure Law by His fulfillment of pure Law on the Cross and the Blood of Jesus Christs atonement. I now have the freedom of the curse of the Law, but the power of Grace makes it possible for me to keep the Law perfect also, which is in Christ by the Holy Spirit. This is how Paul says we can present every man perfect in Christ by His working which works in us mightily. So Grace and Law do mix, but not to make one or the other our perfection. Grace to be free from the curse of the Law and a New Nature, "A new creation in Christ Jesus", that we can accomplish the righteousness of the Law by His working in us, that power given by the Holy Spirit that works in our minds renewing process. That is why, if we sin, we can confess our sin and that is why God is faithful and JUST to forgive us our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness, which is in The Cross of Christ by the Grace of God. Think about it; faithful, just and cleansing, WoW

To this point in my growing up into Christ, so far as it is revealed to me, I must see both sides of Grace, one unto no condemnation the other unto keeping His Commandments, of which some are specifically not for the believer, but for Israel only. We must see, we cannot accomplish the whole Law as was given to Moses, but we now have the Grace to keep that Law that pertains to us now, "My Commandments".

The Holy Spirit is the One that sorts it all out in our lives by conviction of sin that we might be set free and receive no condemnation, but also repent in the conviction of our minds to sin in our lives.

Like Paul, I have not obtained it yet, but I press on toward the upward calling of God in Christ Jesus who has set me Free, in Him Free Indeed.

In Christ: Phillip

[quote} Matthew wrote: ""I was recently at a large Pentecostal church where the speaker said that the holy spirit only convicts us of sin before we are saved, however after we are saved we are only convicted of our righteousness."

Wombat and Matthew, telling us what a particular speaker at a particular Church believes in a discussion about what he conceives what the Holy Spirit does or does not convict has no bearing on what set of Laws we Christians are under, such argument is a Red Herring type Sophistry.

I do not agree with that speaker based upon what you quoted him to have said. But what he said has nothing to do with what set of Laws we are under.

I am dead to the Mosaic Law, and I thank God that HE annihilated the Mosaic Law as per Zechariah 11: 7-13, upon Jesus death.

The question we are discussing is:

Are we under the Mosaic Covenant (Covenant means 'Contract'), or are we under the Laws of Moses, or are we under the Laws of Jesus Christ.

Jesus was not sent by God the Father to be our cheerleader for keeping the Mosaic Law. Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic Covenant in our place. And Jesus took upon Himself the penalties we deserved for Breaking the Mosaic Laws.

The Scriptures are very clear about this:

Heb 7:11-22

11 Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron? 12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also. 13 For the one concerning whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests. 15 And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek, 16 who has become such not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is attested of Him,

"YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER
ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK."

18 For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness 19(for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God. 20 And inasmuch as it was not without an oath 21(for they indeed became priests without an oath, but He with an oath through the One who said to Him,

"THE LORD HAS SWORN
AND WILL NOT CHANGE HIS MIND,
'YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER'");

22 so much the more also Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant. NASU

The words in the Bible mean something people, when taken in proper context. Please note Hebrews 7:12.

And it will do you no good to pick and choose what part of the Mosaic Law you wish to keep, such as the Ten Commandments, on what basis are you discarding the other 603 Mosaic Laws. Did Jesus keep the the other 603 Laws for you.

What are you thinking. You are rejecting the salvation that Jesus won for us on the cross, God's gift to us who are saved through the Finished work on the cross on our behalf, we who have faith in what Jesus accomplished for us, for we who actually believe God.

And anyone raising 'Antinomianism (No Law)' is deceiving such people are trying to steal away your liberty and what God has already accomplished for you, if indeed you believe Him and His WORD.

The Catholic Church created this false argument against Luther and others to undermine their preaching salvation by Faith in Jesus Finished work on the cross, rather than the RCC's salvation through Sacraments, Luther (and others) correctly argued that we are not under the Mosaic Law.

Christians are not Lawless, We are under the Laws of Jesus Christ.

1. The Royal Law of Love. Love God with all your Heart, Mind, and Strength, and your neighbor as yourself. And we all ought to know who our neighbors are, Jesus, in His telling of the Good Samaritan Jesus reveals who truly is a neighbor, we are to be that neighbor, the Samaritan is the GOOD SAMARITAN because he saved the life of a man who hated and despised him, we are to be that neighbor. That is unconditional Love.

2. The Law of Liberty: Mercy Triumphs over Judgement, forgive and you shall be forgiven, give good things to those who can not give to you, bless those who curse you, Judgement will be merciless to those who show no mercy, Measure for measure - as you measure unto others, so shall you be measured by your own standard.

3. The Law of the Spirit Of Life in Christ, walk with God daily and 'God in me' - The Holy Spirit will transform your very nature via our daily walk with God, and pray for us even with prayers we often do not realize we need to pray.

These 3 Laws are Perfect. They put all things into proper perspective. In a sense, these three laws of Jesus Christ is very balanced, they are positive Laws, Laws that transform us. Laws through which we live by faith. Laws by which God keeps us.

If God is for us, who can be against us. By the Laws of Jesus Christ we enter into daily fellowship with God, and by them God keeps us and performs His work in us.

Therefore there is no condemnation for us Christians...

Ro 8:1-5

Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. NASU

It's good to read all of Chapters of Romans.

Art,

The issue 'Wombat' raised was not regarding the differences between the Old and New Covenants. He was addressing an error that a preacher made; the error that a born again Christian will not be convicted by the Holy Spirit when he sins.

There is simply no support for this in the New Testament as a number of passages calling on Believers to repent, flee from sin, put off sin, etc. will attest.

Ginny Rose,
I do appreciate some sound and stable posts here.
I am glad you brought this subject up..isn't ..it is so very Needed ?
I find on the forum now,more and more teachings like you are talking about,
where we can just live any kind of way,..and I'm on the Right Road / Path.
But what about,'the path being narrow,...and few there be that FIND it ?
And like mjoan, says,..where is the Real fear of God ?Some are not even
afraid to make a mock of God' Word,..and there is a throwing in of subjects
being brought up,..that might cause a weak bro / sis to come to unbelief in the Lord / Word.(Satan has come to steal)
And this brother on this post, I appreciate him, he is talking about Grace,..which some have made a shamble out of. Grace is precious gift from God, drawing us to Himself,...if we do not shun this Grace,that He ministers to us.
* (1) It is the Devine influence upon the heart, and (2) it's reflection in the life.
(1) the hearing / drawing of the Word, to Him,..His will / way.
(2) the doing of the Word,( that we be doers of the Word and not
hearers Only.

I believe there have been a distortion of words,..God who made words
in the very beginning of time. Would Satan try to put his hand into the things of the Lord to distort ? We can readily see he has tried to distort
The word 'church' to mean,'a building'.... Would it be past his way to distort
other words to deceive many to sweep them into hell ?
Would this not be a way for him to win a major victory ?
There are one's that believe / think they are right,..and will say to the Lord,on that day,"Lord,Lord,( and they think it not important to allow Him to
reign / rule / be their King,in their lives ) and He will say unto them,'Why call Me Lord,Lord,and do not what I say. ...( being'led by the Spirit of God)

Proverbs says, there is a way, that seemeth Right unto a man, but the Ways thereof are the Ways of death. ( and not life )
Jn. ....Jesus said, " I am the WAY,...He preached the WAY,through the Truth / Word in order that we may have Life..and through His precious Blood and Spirit,an intrance has been made for us to walk.

I am not meaning to be harsh here, but in loving ness.
Bless you all,
Elizabeth