The battle of sexuality

My post is more towards homosexuality and maybe bi sexuality. The bible tells us homosexuality is wrong. It is somewhat even explicit in the OT as well and it is reaffirmed in the book of Romans.

I notice more and more that homosexuality is quickly becoming an accepted way of life through media outlets and through surfing the internet. Christian thought is quickly becoming an outcast and castigated as bigotry, hate speech, homophobe and all that other non sense.

I have sat back and taken all of this in and wondered what is really causing this to happen? It is an easy thing to say it is Satan doing this and really I think it is cop out answer. Yeah, the general idea may be true but we end up doing alot of damage by saying it is all satan.

I reflect back on my women's studies class about something my professor told me and I wonder if it translates to this. He stated that as men get older they lose testostrone and their estrogen levels rise in their senior years. Women have the same thing happen to them in their bodies with testostrone rising in their later years. So I wondered, those who say they are homosexual and really show the flamboyant signs, meaning, listening to their speech and their mannerisms and you will know that they are 'different'or probably a homosexual.. Do you think this could be caused by an unbalancement of hormones and this is causing these people to practice homosexuality?
How does this relate to the bible precedent of homosexuality being wrong. When it comes to hormones it becomes a natural imbalance and maybe there is some influence of the supernatural in some cases.

I see 2 camps on this debate. Those who use the bible to say homosexuality is wrong and those who say they were born that way type of thing and they were always inclined to be that way. How do we take the bible and make it relateable to understand why people are naturally inclined to practice homosexuality? Yes, people loved sin rather than loving God can be introduced but does that really answer the question? Seems it needs to go even deeper than that.

However you go about analysing this, I think if you don't have a worldview that includes the three heavens (and heavenly battles) then you're bound to end up with a natural (i.e. partial) analysis leading to skewed conclusions.

'Satan is doing it' is simplistic yet misleadingly so. For instance, I heard an account in one of Derek Prince's sermons of a mother who had dabbled in the occult while pregnant (trying to divine the gender of her baby) who (as it turns out?) later fell to homosexuality. Of course, I'm not drawing a hard-and-fast relationship. . . what I am saying is don't discount curses, open doors to demons, and sins themselves as God's judgement (a la 'God GAVE THEM OVER to their lusts and passions' in judgement. . .)

ET101

I hear what you are saying.

On the one hand a person can say that those who are saying they are homosexual are saying they are born that way so it is natural for them and they know no other way. The other hand could say it is all a spiritual battle and these people are led by satan. I think both of them are flawed personally. I don't think satan can be blamed for it all and I don't think 'being born' that way is the answer to it. I think it is somewhere in the middle.

I have a homosexual uncle and I have wondered why and how he went this way. At one time he was engaged to be married and she just ran away. Not long after this he became a homosexual yet I don't know if it was a natural tendency for him or if he was conditioned for it.
I had a friend of mine who confided that he struggled with homosexual feelings. He was the worship leader in a small church I attended. We became fast friends but he didn't talked about relationships with girls. He was a bit of a recluse but he would stay in his bedroom and preach to the angels. A few times I spent the night at his house we took turns doing that very thing-preach to the angels. I broke friendship with him because his attitude became one of control. Not long after that I found out that he succumbed to his feelings of homosexuality. He spoke to me over the phone only once after our split and spoke to me about his heartbreak of his boyfriend leaving him. I haven't spoken to him since that time.

I also wonder, has the land sinned so much that God is allowing this parade of homosexuality to run rampant among our society to give us up to what we want in our hearts. This becomes a spiritual origin of sin but in the personal lives of homosexuals how much of it is spiritual and how much of it is natural?

I don't know how much is 'natural' and how much is 'spiritual.' I know there are Christians who struggle with homosexual thoughts on an ongoing basis who don't identify as homosexual - so they acknowledge it is sin and run from it (thoughts and actions) yet the temptation is there.

My (completely unresearch and unsubstantiated) sense for what some people describe as 'being born that way' is that for as far back as they can remember they've had this sort of inclination. . .and they might give in to it at some point. . .or not have a moral reason to resist it. So they weren't born 'homosexual' per-se but born with an inclination to it. . .then nature+nurture+spirit = manifest homosexual.

How much natural/spiritual? I don't know. . .also along with 'natural' it's accurate to include psychological/sociological factors (along with physiological ie. hormones etc). For instance, I've come across a sense of a higher proportion of cross-dressing in some Pacific Island countries. . . it's accepted.

Has the land sinned so much for God to give it over to its lusts and passions? I can only say there is so much sin in the land and God has done it before. . .

PS: I think many of us (Christians) are still so conditioned to thinking in a non-spiritual worldview. We look for cause and effect in the confines of atoms, ideas and historic pattern. I personally believe we need to break out from this and learn to see the world from the heavens inward - from God's purposes, from God's agenda and from spiritual heavenlies where our enemies reside.

Do you think this could be caused by an unbalancement of hormones and this is causing these people to practice homosexuality?

It is a very Good Question. I wanted to post this question and answer it myself so that the Christians would understand the truth. But somehow I missed to let my view on this topic. I want everyone to read my full post as I feel God has given me light in this area.

First of all no mater what science says, we Christians have to believe that Homosexuals are not born as they are. We might be looked down like fools, I believe many posters here will look down on me for saying this. But it is a fact, just how Evolution and Bible cannot be true same way Born as Homosexual and homosexual sin cannot be true. I heard many pastors saying that these people are born like that still they have to give up this life and follow God because God's word says so. This is not true. Such pastors only show their lack of scripture and lack of fellowship with God.

As a young man my sexual drive (for women) was high right from the age of 13, I wanted to experience it and I know it is true with many Boys and girls. But does that mean premarital sex is not sin? God lets us have sexual desires at young age so that we will learn to control it and be master over our sexual desires to apply them only in marriage bed. If God has designed us in such a way that we will have sexual desires only after marriage then after marriage we would have all gone wild with our desires. I believe my dependency on God to control my sexual desires before marriage is helping me in my day today married life. So one should not blame God for the desires that come in our heart, having a desire to do something does not mean you are allowed to do it. If a man is born with desires to kill then is it lawful for him to commit murder?

Back to Homosexuality, the origin of it is very clear in Bible. Romans 1 blames that people lost their reverence for God and exchanged their NATURAL desires which is opposite sexual attraction with unnatural sexual desires which is same sex attraction. So Bible is clear that natural desire in any man or women is to be attracted to opposite sex and Nature also proves it. Two same sex couple cannot have a baby and produce mankind in Natural way.

Some of your friends might say they never got attracted to opposite sex so they are born with same sex desires. Do not believe them, these people are influenced by already Homosexual friends and this influence has caused them to believe that their nature itself is different. For example, a baby boy who is raised by two Gays will also have high chance of Growing into Gay. Because this is what he sees everyday and he thinks this is natural. So I would encourage Christian parents not to let their kids to be with Gay or homosexual kids. It might influence their sexuality as well.

Another reason for high number of Gays in US is the increase in number of Single parents in US. Young Girls and Boys Grow with high attachment to opposite sex parent (either Single Mom or Dad) and hence the same sex becomes an unknown entity. We always have an attraction to unknown entity. That is why we see Old men and women who had sex with opposite sex partners all their life gets to try the unknown which is same sex partner at their latter age. This is not some Hormonal issue.

Deadn, Here is a Christian website related to the homosexual issue.
http://exodusinternational.org/

Click on FAQ - and you may find answers to your questions.
You'll find some stirring testimonies here too.

You raise a huge topic which has many ramifications (and volatile emotions). There is no lack of people with more opinion than helpful knowledge. Becoming informed is an important way to meet the challenge appropriately.

May God bless you with insight and Holy Spirit compassion as you work your way through this concern that is pressing on your heart.

Diane

Diane
I know this issue can be volatile but it really needs to be dealt with and examined very carefully. I bring it up because I see it more and more in society and more people who are not homosexual seemingly helping to lead the parade while labeling christians and those who do not agree with negative labels. Christians are seen as bible thumpers with this issue because the 'bible' says.......

Yet, I Know we have to take what the bible says and follow it up with compassionate humanity in order to reach the hearts of homosexuals BUT if homosexuality has to do with hormones or other 'natural' activity going on within the body I don't think necessarily declaring something in the Name of Jesus is going to correct the problem in most cases. This makes me sound unchristian on paper but I think the reality of it is true.

I see an assault on christians on this topic and I see it creeping up to my doorstep to the point where I really need to undersand it and know how to deal with it properly without causing undo harm to the soul of a person beyond what is already there.

I am finding very often that people accept homosexuality more and more and the 'nature itself tells you it is wrong' is quickly going out the window. Animal kingdom examples are brought forth to show it exists there. I have my own answers for that mess, lol.

I will look at exodus international and see what they have to say as well.
Do you see where I am going?

Oh one more thing, someone mentioned desenitization. There is the show 'Modern Family' which is an ironic name for the content. The Gay couple on the show makes me laugh. It is the reason why I watch it if and when I do yet how many watches are getting desensitized by it? Is it happening to me? I don't know but I Guard my heart on it. btw, I see that show maybe every other week to every 3rd week if that.

Yet, I Know we have to take what the bible says and follow it up with compassionate humanity in order to reach the hearts of homosexuals BUT if homosexuality has to do with hormones or other 'natural' activity going on within the body I don't think necessarily declaring something in the Name of Jesus is going to correct the problem in most cases. This makes me sound unchristian on paper but I think the reality of it is true.

This is the exact view I am opposing in my previous post. Can you please read my previous post?
Brother, both of them cannot be true. Either Bible should be true or Science. One cannot take the stand you are taking.
Do you believe in Evolution? No right then what makes you believe in Science?
Either Jesus is God and he came back from dead, as we all believe or he should have been a mad man claiming that he is Son of God. But there cannot be a balance between the two, saying he is a good teacher but not actually God etc.

Oh one more thing, someone mentioned desenitization.

But note: The Romans epistle quickly moves (in Chapter 2) towards a different kind of desensitization – something insidiously more evil: That of the desensitization among God’s people. These people are acutely adept at registering societal evils as sin – but they are unable to register their own sins. Their consciences are blind, and so they merrily set out to help others eradicate sin, but they themselves break God’s law. As you read on in Romans, you see what that law is, which God’s people are required to observe.

In your mission, Deadn, the best way to avoid getting derailed in the Romans 2 predicament, is to precede forward through the chapters in Romans. Let them sink into every fiber of your being. And then…. clothed in the Lord Jesus, you will be well-equipped to proclaim Jesus Christ into the hearts of those who do not know his abundant life, and are trying to make life work in their own strength – yes even your homosexual relative. And then you will not be a stumbling block, as so many zealous Christians have become, who are blind guides, and who aggressively and ruthlessly take a stand against this one most glaring societal sin: homosexuality.

What could be more sinful than God's people abandoning their attentiveness to the only Hope for our fallen world (and hiding their sin behind a preoccupation with the sins of others).

May Rom. 15:19 be true in your life:

“Everyone has heard about your obedience, so I am full of joy over you,
but I want to you to be wise about what is good and innocent about what is evil.”

"… to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ....
that the nations might believe and obey him.. (:26)

Diane

"First of all no mater what science says, we Christians have to believe that Homosexuals are not born as they are. We might be looked down like fools, I believe many posters here will look down on me for saying this. But it is a fact, just how Evolution and Bible cannot be true same way Born as Homosexual and homosexual sin cannot be true."

Science is a field of love and hate relationships. Science gives us so much in the advancement of society that a person really has to be careful when that advancement crosses the line into falsehood. How much do we rely on science to help us in so many areas? Than one wonders how they get some things so seemingly wrong? According to christian doctrine.

"Some of your friends might say they never got attracted to opposite sex so they are born with same sex desires. Do not believe them, these people are influenced by already Homosexual friends and this influence has caused them to believe that their nature itself is different. For example, a baby boy who is raised by two Gays will also have high chance of Growing into Gay. Because this is what he sees everyday and he thinks this is natural. So I would encourage Christian parents not to let their kids to be with Gay or homosexual kids. It might influence their sexuality as well.

Another reason for high number of Gays in US is the increase in number of Single parents in US. Young Girls and Boys Grow with high attachment to opposite sex parent (either Single Mom or Dad) and hence the same sex becomes an unknown entity. We always have an attraction to unknown entity. That is why we see Old men and women who had sex with opposite sex partners all their life gets to try the unknown which is same sex partner at their latter age. This is not some Hormonal issue."

I used to think this same way myself but I wondered how much credibility it held. I used to think that many of those who say they are homosexual went this way as a result of molestation in their early years. It seems more and more I don't hear those stories anymore. I Hear stories of 'I was just a different person from the other kids when I was younger'.
I remember being in elementary and there was this kid who seemed just weird in his ways. He didn't act like the typical boy and as a result sometimes was made fun of. Later, when he got into high school I found out that he came out of the closet and his mannerisms came out even more. It was as if they were boxed in as a kid. He had parents and I actually worked with him on a project in elementary school and I cringed a bit because of his mannerisms. I think back to his life and wondered what happened there? Naturally speaking his make up seemed to be this yet I also wonder does he have a hormone imbalance?

I know in Romans it talks about homosexuality yet how do we reconcile those who do know how the single parent thing, don't have the molestation thing going on in their lives that could have caused them to become homosexual? We do run a danger of making this thing too much of an emotional issue and allowing ourselves to accept homosexuality as normal as a result of touching emotional stories and we can't go down that road. Yet, it would not be right to point the finger using the bible in a hard way as well- would it? Too many christians have pointed the finger of blame in this area.

My parents divorced when I was 13? My brother and I lived with mom. Dad was 6 blocks down the street but always criticized us for going with mom. In his words we were going to hell for going with a divorcee. Meantime, mom made it a point to work her tail off and raise us up with morals and such whereas dad lived in pain. I didn't have any sexual attraction to any males at all and if I did it was subtle stuff and never went into action.

Lastly, Sree- do you know for sure that what you say in this last paragraph is correct or are you making a good guess that it has got to be true? The arguments that I see steer away from this and as a result I am trying to understand how to understand this thing and what is exactly happening with homosexuality.

This is the exact view I am opposing in my previous post. Can you please read my previous post?
Brother, both of them cannot be true. Either Bible should be true or Science. One cannot take the stand you are taking.
Do you believe in Evolution? No right then what makes you believe in Science?
Either Jesus is God and he came back from dead, as we all believe or he should have been a mad man claiming that he is Son of God. But there cannot be a balance between the two, saying he is a good teacher but not actually God etc.

Sree
What should we throw Science out for anything? We use science for so much in the advancement of society. That doesn't mean we can believe science for everything because sometimes it goes off the road. Sciences uses only the natural world for its results yet should we see the bible glorified through it for if God made this natural world surely we would see His fingerprint in it whether we choose to acknowledge it or not.

Do I believe in evolution? No, but I also am not settled that the Earth is 6000 years old either.I am just not sure what is going on there but for me it really doesn't matter. Proving who Jesus is easier than proving that the Earth is 6,000 years old because of evidence of history. We only have the Bible to show the Earth might be 6000 years old based on our study of the verses from the original manuscripts but then if that is the case what is science missing that it says the Earth is Millions of years old?

Can you tell me that you really throw science out the window in all regards because it doesn't always match up with the Bible? Just curious.

In your mission, Deadn, the best way to avoid getting derailed in the Romans 2 predicament, is to precede forward through the chapters in Romans. Let them sink into every fiber of your being. And then…. clothed in the Lord Jesus, you will be well-equipped to proclaim Jesus Christ into the hearts of those who do not know his abundant life, and are trying to make life work in their own strength – yes even your homosexual relative. And then you will not be a stumbling block, as so many zealous Christians have become, who are blind guides, and who aggressively and ruthlessly take a stand against this one most glaring societal sin: homosexuality.

The very last beginning with 'zealous' is one key factor why I have pursued this a bit. zealousness in the scriptures can do ALOT of harm to people.
'Aggressively and ruthlessly'- Should those even been terms associated with Christians? Maybe Agressively in wisdom but ruthless has no part. It is my opinion that some Christians will take the Romans road and use it as a machine gun to kill people with it instead of calling them to repentance. It is a 'natural' tendency to do such a thing when one gets a 'religious' spirit.

My whole intention is to understand why homosexuals, and specifically the ones who are very flamboyant to the point that you don't have to hear them speak, their mannerisms show you they they are 'different' and how to approach this in accordance to the gospel.

I will be looking at exodus international to see what they have to say about it as well.

hi, the gay lifestyle is a lifestyle of sin but so is the heterosexual lifestyle outside of marriage. i will stand up with the homosexual people and love them and witness to them and demonstrate the love of Jesus to them for they need a redeemer like everyone else. their sin is against natural life and is declared worse then your sin or mine. ido not understand the attraction of a man with another man romanically and i know that they will be delivered up as reprobates but i have seen some converted(saved) and delivered. i will myself to love these people for i believe that Jesus died for them ,also.

Jimp
I agree with what you say and I stand with you in what you have said.

My whole intention is to understand why homosexuals, and specifically the ones who are very flamboyant to the point that you don't have to hear them speak, their mannerisms show you they they are 'different' and how to approach this in accordance to the gospel.

This looks like an honorable goal, Deadn. You wish to understand gays so that you can meaningfully engage the good news of Jesus Christ in their lives. I might be able to provide some direction. I took a seminary course called ‘Human Sexuality in a Christian Perspective” taught by Dr. Ephraim Radner of Wycliffe Seminary, Toronto. He might be able to direct you further. Dr. Radner has been defending the position against ordination of gays in the Anglican Church, and he is very much a leader in this. He is well-equipped with knowledge and research, and his defense is well-secured Biblically (I believe). You get meaty content from him,putting it mildly. Don't expect to be spoon fed with instant answers. As far as the behaviors you mention, I’m sure you may get some help there too. (I cannot post the course content here, because it would be a copywrite infringement.)

BTW, Dr. Radner has written a commentary on Leviticus in which he demonstrates how homosexuality is a violation, not merely of an outdated OT law, but of the nature of God as a God of life. In other words, he brings the purity law code forward into the gospel of Christ – and the purpose of Christ - to give Life. (Of course, that principle has implications for other contemporary issues which have to do with the restriction of life.)

we Christians have to believe that Homosexuals are not born as they are.

Deadn, you mention the various social conditions that are “blamed” for homosexuality, and you also note that those conditions may be absent for some. So true! Statistics merely reveal tendencies. I don’t think they are necessarily always used as an “excuse”.

We can all point to gays who were raised in good Christian families. Yet if we could look closer, we would have to say that even “good” families can be fractured in many ways. Also, we can’t see the countless other factors that affect the shaping of an individual.

Here’s contact info: Wycliffe College Faculty Page

http://www.wycliffecollege.ca/faculty.php?aid=8 Click on Dr. Radner’s “Show Details” link. I don’t see much in the publications per se on homosexuality, but his email address and phone number is here.
(you probably should give him my name: Diane Eaton)

Roadsign
Thanks for the link. I have sent an email to him. I was also sent a link from a moderator which I am looking in to.

Normally I wouldn't care about this whole thing but I noticed it is becoming common place in America and I am seeing it much too often even in blogs and I want to be able to confront it but be intelligent and not lean on emotional nonsense to rebuke it.

Normally I wouldn't care about this whole thing but I noticed it is becoming common place in America and I am seeing it much too often even in blogs and I want to be able to confront it but be intelligent and not lean on emotional nonsense to rebuke it.

Deadn, I’m happy about your desire to wade through the mountains of visible evidence and intelligently discern the issue of homosexuality. And yes, keeping free from emotional influences is a challenge. I’ll share one story to illustrate your concern:

My course assignments included writing critical reviews of various books related to the topic of sexuality in the Christian perspective. One book was a debate between two biblical scholars – one for and one against homosexuality. They each used the Bible to support their positions. In my observation the nay-sayer used a substantial amount of shaky biblical support – proof texting and reading into passages what is not there. He was, in my estimation, colored by his emotions and rationalizations. This merely gave his opponent points to argue against, and thus lend credence to his argument that homosexuality is a biblically acceptable lifestyle. So then - the position one supports may be right, but the defense might be in error. In such cases, silence may be safer.

If you are keen, you may wish to broaden your investigation of social issues. For example, anorexia is a growing concern. Anorexics ban together, especially on the internet, to support their condition and to glorify it.It's like their own Pride Movement. And they have the fashion industry on their side.

Yet anorexia is a life threatening condition. Many are dying from it. Three of my students are anorexics in treatment. Yet there is nothing in the Bible that says anorexia is an abomination. That’s because that did not exist in Bible days - nor a lot of our social abominations that are unique to an affluent culture like ours.

So, while homosexuality is a legitimate concern, there is a host of social ailments that are at the present far more destructive and dangerous. We Christians must ask why there is so little said about, say, anorexia and far more about homosexuality? What does that say about our approach to scripture?

Deadn, God bless you!
Looking forward to hearing more from you,

Diane