HISTORIC PREMILLENNIALISM WITH A VICTORIOUS CHURCH

Hey I found this teaching after going to the Onething conference on the different end time views. Its really good it goes through each of the main beliefs about end times and explains the strengths and weaknesses of each one. Of course it also suggests why HISTORIC PREMILLENNIALISM WITH A VICTORIOUS CHURCH is the correct view.

Historic Premillennialism and the Victorious Church

I.\tIT IS IMPORTANT TO HAVE A BIBLICAL VIEW OF THE END TIMES

A.\tIt is important to have a biblical perspective on the end times. What we believe about the end times greatly affects how we approach the work of the kingdom. Ideas have consequences.

B.\tI do not ask anyone to accept my views, rather I urge you to think for yourself. Truth is never hurt by careful scrutiny, but rather it is confirmed. We must boldly challenge all the ideas that are being taught and refuse any that we cannot clearly see in Scripture for ourselves.
11They [Bereans] received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so. (Acts 17:11)

C.\tWe honor the godliness and wisdom of many who uphold different views, but some errors in understanding will leave many unprepared and even offended at Jesus in the end-time pressures.

D.\tThe most controversial point that we hold to is that the Church will be raptured after going through the tribulation in great victory. This differs from the pretribulation rapture view that teaches that the Church will be raptured at any moment, missing the end-time revival and crisis.

E.\tThere are several popular end-time views taught today. One is too pessimistic (dispensational premillennialism) with its pretribulation rapture. In total contrast, another view is too optimistic (postmillennialism) with its total Christianizing of all society before Jesus returns. This view claims that things will mostly get better. This overly optimistic view will lead to confusion and disappointment. The power and promises of God will be released in fullness in the Millennium, yet are still released in part in this age and in greater measures as we get closer to Jesus’ return.

F.\tIHOP–KC holds to the historic premillennial view of the end times with a post-tribulation rapture and victorious praying Church emphasized (Eph. 5:27; Rev. 19:7). The Church will be victorious in love with power during the most dramatic time in history. This view gives us confidence and urgency to dynamically participate with Jesus now and in the coming revival.

G.\tThe harvest of righteousness and of sin will both come to fullness at the end of the age resulting in the greatest outpouring of the Spirit and the greatest crisis in history—the tribulation.
30Let both [wheat and tares] grow together until the harvest… (Mt. 13:30)

11For the Day of the LORD is great and very terrible; who can endure it? (Joel 2:11)
H.\tMany unique dynamics will occur in Jesus’ end-time plan as He transitions the earth from this present age to the age to come and drives evil off the earth forever. He has a plan to intervene to confront oppression and corruption in a way that He has never done before (Rev. 19:2). God’s judgments will remove all that hinders love so that multitudes are saved and mature in love. He uses the least severe means to reach the greatest number of people at the deepest level of love.

II.\tAPOSTOLIC CHRISTIANITY: NEW TESTAMENT CHURCH LIFE

A.\tThe Lord is returning for a victorious Church (Eph. 5:27; Rev. 19:7). Because of the element of victory, we sometimes refer to our historic premillennial view as apostolic premillennialism. We use the term apostolic to refer to the vision, values and victory of the New Testament Church.
27…that He might present her to Himself a glorious church… (Eph. 5:27)

7…for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready. (Rev. 19:7)
B.\tApostolic Christianity, or New Testament Christianity, will emerge in the end times as the Spirit raises up a victorious Church that operates in unprecedented unity, intimacy, and maturity (Mt. 16:18; 22:37; Jn. 17:21-26; Acts 2:17-21; Eph. 4:13; 5:27; Rev. 7:9; 12:11; 15:2; 19:7).

11He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12for the equipping of the saints…13till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge [intimacy] of the Son of God, to a perfect man [maturity]… (Eph. 4:11-13)

III.\tWHAT IS APOSTOLIC CHRISTIANITY?

A.\tIt is Jesus-centered: It has a deep allegiance to Jesus, proclaiming His supremacy, glory, and worth.

B.\tIt is Church-centered: Jesus is building His Church locally and universally, which will openly triumph over all the powers of hell (Mt. 16:18). The local church is central to the purpose of God.

C.\tIt is wholehearted: It embraces holiness and discipleship as the Holy Spirit establishes the first commandment in first place in the Church in relation to Sermon on the Mount lifestyles (Mt. 5-7).

D.\tIt operates in supernatural power: It heals the sick and operates in all the gifts of the Spirit.

E.\tIt grows through prayer and intimacy with God: Its ministries flow from a foundation of intimacy with God (Mt. 25:1-13), with persevering faith and prayer that releases the Spirit’s power.

F.\tIt possesses a missionary spirit: It is focused on proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom in every nation and every area of society (Mt. 24:14; 28:19). This is referred to as the Great Commission or the cultural mandate. There is a continuity of some of our present labors in the Millennium.

G.\tIt embraces persecution: Persecution is part of spiritual warfare for the godly (2 Tim. 3:10-12).
H.\tIt engages in God’s purpose for Israel: The salvation of Israel is a significant aspect of God’s end-time plan. Jewish and Gentile believers are unified in salvation as one new man (Eph. 2:15).

I.\tIt is free from the wrath of God: It is protected from God’s wrath through Jesus (Rom. 8:1).
9For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord… (1 Thes. 5:9)

IV.\tTHE MILLENNIAL KINGDOM

A.\tThe Millennium is a literal 1,000-year period in which Jesus will rule the whole world from Jerusalem in righteousness, peace, and prosperity (Rev. 20:1-6). Jesus will govern in partnership with resurrected saints to establish a biblically-based social order (Mt. 19:28; 25:23; Lk. 19:17-19; 22:29-30; 1 Cor. 6:2-3; 2 Tim. 2:12; Rom. 8:17; Rev. 2:26-27; 3:21; 5:10; 20:4-6).
4They lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years…6They shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. (Rev. 20:4-6)
B.\tThe kingdom of God will be openly manifest worldwide, affecting every sphere of life (politics, economy, education, agriculture, media, technology, environment, social institutions, etc.). This period of worldwide blessing will be initiated by Jesus’ second coming (Isa. 2:1-4; 9:6-9; 11:1-16; 65:17-25; Ps. 2; 110; Mt. 6:10; 17:11; 19:28; 28:19; Acts 1:6; 3:21; Rev. 20:1-6).

V.\tTHREE WRONG VIEWS OF THE END TIMES

A.\tToo negative: Thinking that all society is destined to fall into the hands of the Antichrist. This view leads people to draw back from changing society now. They say, “Why should we work to bring change to society, if satanic darkness is destined to dominate all society in the tribulation?”

B.\tToo positive: Thinking that most of society will be transformed before Jesus returns. This view ignores what Scripture says about the coming pressures in society and the necessity of Jesus returning to establish the fullness of the kingdom on earth. Though hope-filled desire is important, it must be tempered by Scripture. We must be loyal to God’s end-time plan and wisdom as seen in Scripture and resist exaggerated humanistic optimism.

C.\tToo vague: Thinking that it is impossible to know what the Scripture says about the end times, so why even try. They ignore the end times, being assured that the future will take care of itself and thus, they do not have urgency to be prepared in their understanding. Pan-millennial?

VI.\tTHREE COMMON VIEWS OF THE MILLENNIUM

A.\tPremillennialism: This view teaches that Jesus returns before (pre-) His 1,000-year millennial rule. This is the only view that interprets end-time prophecy in a literal or face-value way.

B.\tPostmillennialism: This view teaches that Jesus returns after (post-) His 1000-year millennial rule. The Church establishes the Millennium by fully Christianizing the world before He returns.

C.\tAmillennialism: This means “no millennium.” This view teaches that Jesus’ 1,000-year reign is not a literal earthly reign, but merely a spiritual victory over sin in the heart of the believer. Most amillennialists limit the kingdom on the earth as being mostly in the heart of a believer.

VII.\tAMILLENNIAL VIEW OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD

A.\tThe strength of this view is in its focus on the spiritual triumph of the Church over sin and Satan before the Lord returns. Some amillennialists believe in a victorious end-time Church.

B.\tThe weaknesses of this view are found in interpreting much end-time prophecy as symbolic or figurative and in embracing replacement theology, which teaches that the Church replaces Israel as heir to Israel’s prophetic promises. Some amillennialists believe in a tribulation with a literal Antichrist, but most reject this view.

C.\tMost amillennialists have a preterist view of the end times (preterit is a verb tense that describes a past action). Preterism teaches that end-time prophecy has already been fulfilled in the past. Some amillennialists are what I call “eschatological cessationists” in that they do not believe the power of God will be manifest in the events related to the Great Tribulation and the Millennium.

D.\tMany preterists do not believe in an end-time tribulation or Antichrist, nor do they interpret the book of Revelation in a literal way. Preterism sees most of the prophecies in Revelation (the tribulation, Antichrist, etc.) as being fulfilled when Israel was at war with Rome (66–70 AD) and/or sees them as merely symbolic—as a picture of spiritual conflict through Church history.

E.\tAmillennialists see end-time prophecies (Mt. 24; Lk. 21) as completely fulfilled in 70 AD. It is true that the events of 70 AD were a partial fulfillment of these prophecies, but they are also meant to be understood as a significant prophetic foreshadowing of end-time events.

VIII.\tPOSTMILLENNIAL VIEW OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD

A.\tThe strength of this view is found in their zeal for the Cultural Mandate—working to see every area of society transformed (government, economy, education, media, arts, etc.). The Lord will release an increased measure of His kingdom purposes and power in every sphere of society before He returns. Some of our labors in this age will have continuity in the age to come.

B.\tThe weakness of this view is similar to the weakness of amillennialism: end-time prophecies are usually interpreted symbolically instead of literally, and it embraces replacement theology.

C.\tMost postmillennialists are preterist; they see many end-time prophecies as fulfilled in 70 AD, rather than being partially fulfilled at that time as a prophetic foreshadowing of end-time events.

D.\tPostmillennialism is an overly optimistic eschatology. It was most popular during the Victorian age (about 1840–1900) when the Spirit was restoring the truths of social action and human rights. At that time, many believers thought things would just get better and better until Jesus returned. However, the two world wars in the 20th century caused postmillennialism to fall out of favor. For example, Wheaton College was founded with postmillennial views, but switched to premillennialism after two world wars proved postmillennial optimism to be wrong.

IX.\tTHE PREMILLENNIAL VIEW OF THE KINGDOM: 2 DIFFERENT APPROACHES

A.\tPremillennialists believe that Jesus will return to rule the earth for a Millennium (1,000 years). The strength of this view is found in its literal interpretation of end-time biblical prophecy. The two differing views are historic and dispensational premillennialism.

B.\tHistoric Premillennialism: Most teach a post-tribulation rapture (Jesus will return “after” the tribulation) and a literal interpretation of end-time prophecy and honor God’s purpose for Israel.

C.\tDispensational Premillennialism: All teach a pre-tribulation rapture (Jesus will return “before” the tribulation) and the literal interpretation of end-time prophecy and honor God’s purpose for Israel. Most do not believe that the Church will be used to transform parts of society, operate in the gifts of the Spirit or win the end-time harvest. This is a new theology that was systematized in the 1830s by John Darby. It is called dispensational because it teaches that God has related differently to His people in seven dispensations of history.
It includes:
(1) two covenants of salvation (Israel and the Church); (2) a literal interpretation of Scripture; (3) premillennial views; (4) pretribulation; (5) imminency that sees the possibility of an “any moment” rapture.

D.\tToday, some who hold dispensational views reject some of the early beliefs of their movement. Classical Dispensationalism (1850–1950s) sees the Church is a parenthesis in salvation history. Revised Dispensationalism (1950–1980s) rejects the idea of two new covenants (for Israel and the Church), but sees their distinction in eternity. Progressive Dispensationalism (1980s–present) refers to the “progressive” relationship of the successive dispensations to one another.

X.\tDISPENSATIONAL PREMILLENNIALISM
A.\tThe strength of this view is found in its literal interpretation of end-time prophecy and in embracing God’s purpose for Israel in the end times.

B.\tIts weakness is that most who hold this view do not believe that the Church will be used to transform parts of society, or that it will operate in the gifts of the Spirit, or be on earth during the tribulation to finish winning the harvest. It sees two new covenants pertaining to salvation—one for Israel and one for the Church. (Dispensationalists have differing views on this).

C.\tOne weakness common to dispensationalists is in teaching on the pre-tribulation rapture of the Church. Dispensational premillennialism is an overly pessimistic eschatology. The common response is escapism (why prepare and work hard if we will soon be raptured) along with fatalism and defeatism (society cannot be changed so why try). The doctrine of imminency (Jesus returning at any moment) does not emphasize the need for a long-term plan to impact society or for Gentile believers to provoke Israel to jealousy and salvation by standing with them in persecution during the tribulation. Some with this view see the Church’s mandate as being like a life raft, limited to delivering people from drowning (preaching only salvation), while abdicating our kingdom responsibility to call society out of darkness. This view can lead to a lazy disengagement. Yet, some dispensationalist churches are very active in soul-winning.

XI.\tHISTORIC PREMILLENNIALISM: THE TRADITIONAL VIEW

A.\tThe strength of this view is found in its literal interpretation of end-time prophecy, in preparing the Church for future persecution, and in our responsibility to provoke Israel to salvation.

B.\tIts weakness is that some who hold this view do not believe that the Church will grow strong in prayer that will result in the great harvest and in end-time victory and power as she functions in her bridal identity (Rev. 22:17). Note: some with this view do see a victorious praying Church.

XII.\tHISTORIC PREMILLENNIALISM WITH A VICTORIOUS CHURCH

A.\tThe strength of this view is found in combining the biblical strengths of postmillennialism and amillennialism with historic premillennialism and the call to victory and wholeheartedness.

B.\tA victorious Church: attains to unity, intimacy, and maturity, resulting in the greatest revival in history (Eph. 4:13). This prophetic praying Church will walk in great power as it is used to bring in the end-time harvest and to transform society in various places.

C.\tA wholehearted Church: walks in “Sermon on the Mount lifestyles” of self-denial and serving, giving, blessing, praying, and fasting as seen in the New Testament Church (Mt. 5-7). This lifestyle will be energized by encountering Jesus as the Bridegroom God (Rev. 22:17).

D.\tA relevant Church: sees the continuity of some of our labors in impacting society now (righteous legislation, education, etc.) with the work of Jesus in the Millennium. All that is unrighteous will be dismantled and then re-established in righteousness in the Millennium. However, righteous legislation in society in this age will not need to be replaced. Works in society built on godliness and justice will last beyond the shaking of the tribulation judgments.

XIII.\tTWO COMMON OBJECTIONS TO HISTORIC PREMILLENNIALISM

A.\tSome claim that the Holy Spirit is the restrainer that is removed when the Church is raptured. Paul prophesied the removal of a “someone” or “something” that restrains the Antichrist from being revealed (2 Thes. 2:6-8).

Paul described the restrainer of the increase of sin and the release of the Antichrist as a “what” (neuter gender in 2:6) and as a “He” (masculine gender in 2:7). Paul taught that governing authorities are appointed by God to restrain evil (Rom. 13:1-4). I believe the restraining force that is removed is a combination of a “what,” which I believe to be the existence of national governments that will not allow the Antichrist’s government to emerge, and a “He,” which I believe to be God and His sovereign decree to bring the ten-nation confederation into unity with the Antichrist (Rev. 17:17).

B.\tSome claim that we will not go through the Tribulation because “we are not appointed unto wrath” (1 Thes. 5:9). It is true—the Church is not appointed to wrath. The wrath of God in the tribulation will be released to destroy the Antichrist

by EvangelTam
Some claim that we will not go through the Tribulation because “we are not appointed unto wrath” (1 Thes. 5:9). It is true—the Church is not appointed to wrath. The wrath of God in the tribulation will be released to destroy the Antichrist.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=528

God bless you,
Lisa

EvangelTam

I liked the way the article goes through the major sysems and points out the fors and againsts of each one. However, just taking one section:

Quote
E. There are several popular end-time views taught today. One is too pessimistic (dispensational premillennialism) with its pretribulation rapture. In total contrast, another view is too optimistic (postmillennialism) with its total Christianizing of all society before Jesus returns. This view claims that things will mostly get better. This overly optimistic view will lead to confusion and disappointment. The power and promises of God will be released in fullness in the Millennium, yet are still released in part in this age and in greater measures as we get closer to Jesus’ return.

Pessimism is believing the worst, and optimism is believing the best of a situation. But neither should be discounted solely because they are optimistic or pessimistic, but rather on what the bible teaches.

If I look at what the bible says about the last days, it paints a "pessimistic picture of those times, for the world and for the professing church.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

and

2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2Ti 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
2Ti 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

This is the mystery of iniquity which was already at work in the church in Paul's days, and works even more powerfully today. And Paul says "from such turn away", and in another place " come out from among them".

However much our hearts may yearn for revival of the church and a great outpouring in the last times, the scriptures give no such promise, rather the opposite, as above. Although the Lord is always full of grace and mercy to His people, and blessing generally can be expected at all times from His presence, until He sends Jesus again.

Your system, though I'm sure can be backed with scriptures, apparently deliberately takes what seems to be the middle ground and builds it's doctrine on that. This, to me, is not the right way to divide the word of truth.

David

davidc wrote:
Pessimism is believing the worst, and optimism is believing the best of a situation. But neither should be discounted solely because they are optimistic or pessimistic, but rather on what the bible teaches.

Back to pre-trib and pessimism, I found that statement a little odd myself and this was one of the things that I didn’t agree with 100% because I believed (having had been one), that (pre-trib people) were very optimistic believing that Jesus would rapture them before any real trouble broke out. Has that changed? (I can only imagine that the last 4 or 5 years has weighed heavy on their beliefs thinking they’d be gone before some of this stuff happened.)

God bless,
Lisa

Lisa - quote

"We all should know by now that the Bible does not CLEARLY teach one position over another."

Agreed

It is true that, as you say, pre trib people (and all true christians, though they don't all know it) have this "blessed hope" that Jesus will catch them up to Himself before the tribulation judgements come on the earth. His coming for His bride is "imminent" ie there are no events promised or prophesied in the scriptures which will happen before His return; and this is all our hope and joy.

I think the pessimism the article speaks of is that which is spoken of the state of the professing church in the last days. This what I quoted from 1 and 2 Timothy.

Jesus spoke in the parable of the tares and the wheat of there being tares which should grow up among the wheat in the last days, ie before the harvest. This is the state of the church today - mixture.

EvanGel's article however does not see this truth, but speaks of the church growing brighter and more victorious in the last days with worldwide revival promised. I can not find this in scripture;

David

"EvanGel's article however does not see this truth, but speaks of the church growing brighter and more victorious in the last days with worldwide revival promised. I can not find this in scripture;"

I dont think this article discounts the fact that things wil grow darker and more "pessimistic" I think rather it is saying that DESPITE the growing darkness there will be a victorious church!

The scriptures that come to mind on this are
Matthew 16:18

"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it."

It makes sense that the forces of darkness (hell) that grow in the last days will not be able to conquer that church which will rise up victoriously above it.

As for a last days world wide revival hmm yes I guess that can be arguable depending on the definition of revival I would say that in order for a victorious to rise up there needs to be a revival for it to be awakened. I would say that will be a last days harvest of souls.

Isaiah 2

1This is what Isaiah son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem:

2In the last days
the mountain of the Lord’s temple will be established
as chief among the mountains;
it will be raised above the hills,
and all nations will stream to it.
3Many peoples will come and say,
“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
to the house of the God of Jacob.
He will teach us his ways,
so that we may walk in his paths.”
The law will go out from Zion,
the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

EvangelTam wrote:
I think rather it is saying that DESPITE the growing darkness there will be a victorious church!

And I think it depends upon one's disposition also, there were the complainers for 40 years in the desert, even though God saved them - they still had a disposition to whine and complain!!! When my friend as heard someone complaining (whining), they have leaned over and whispered, "Would they like some cheese with that whine?"

We are a victorious church!!

God bless you,
Lisa

EvangelTam

Do you not see that your quote from Isaiah 2 is clearly referring to the millenial age, when as you said before
"Premillennialists believe that Jesus will return to rule the earth for a Millennium (1,000 years)."

It is not speaking of the church here. You write:
"It makes sense that the forces of darkness (hell) that grow in the last days will not be able to conquer that church which will rise up victoriously above it. As for a last days world wide revival hmm yes I guess that can be arguable depending on the definition of revival I would say that in order for a victorious to rise up there needs to be a revival for it to be awakened. I would say that will be a last days harvest of souls."

But our faith can not be built on "It makes sense that"; and "I would say that", but rather "thus saith the Lord."

The church, as the body of Christ is a heavenly new creation, not revealed at all in the old testament. The old testament prophesies concern Israel, God's earthly people, and their coming messiah, His sufferings, and the glory that should follow (in the millenium).

David

Ephah, thank you for your reply. I did not want to go into all the details of last day events as this is not the subject of this thread, and there are many previous threads which have looked at Matthew 24 in this light.

But I will try to answer as briefly and clearly as possible.

I said previously that there were no events prophesied for the church until Christ returns for His bride, and you said that Matthew 24 is full of them., and I can see where you are coming from.

But I do not believe that the events foretold in Matthew 24, particularly after verse 15 refer in any way to the church, His bride. Instead it speaks of events which will come to pass on the earth concerning nations and particularly concerning Israel.

The language is "Israel" centered; it talks of events in Jerusalem, of fleeing to the mountains of Judea; of flight on the sabbath day, and of the saving of the elect. It speaks specifically of Daniel's prophesy of the abomination of desolation setting up in the temple at Jerusalem. It speaks of Christ's coming to reign on the earth and set up His earthly kingdom, so long denied Him.

These are not spoken to or for the church saints, we are His Heavenly creation, the language is not the same. The church, His bride will be snatched up to heaven before these events take place; and that is our true hope.

If you want to see how Jesus talks to His bride about His coming, you should look instead at John 14. Here the language is different. It is His personal love for His bride.

Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

David

I have a list of concerns over the doctrine of the rapture. All of the common versions of it involve that flight into the sky- just when it will happen seems to be the traditional starting point of conversations that generate way more heat than light.

My grandfather was a pre-trib fan, and was convinced that he was going to be raptured in his lifetime. He held on into the mid 70's and finally succumbed to natural futility at age 102.

If I may, let me take you outside the box for just a moment. I am sometimes intrigued by what Jesus didn't say when he could have. His disciples, both then and now, are anxious for knowledge of what is to come and they asked Him very directly about the end of the age. For some strange reason- He did not explain the rapture flight.

Just as today, men desire knowledge over relationship. We want to know what's coming so we can prepare. We don't like when He tells us we will be brought before human authorities to give an account for our faith- and have Jesus say "Give no thought beforehand what you will say, for it will be given to you by the Holy Spirit."

As I read through Jesus' words on all this, I am struck by how all His emphasis is on the relationship, not the events. As a result, I tend to craft my views on eschatology on my relationship with Him rather than trying to figure out the order of events that will force God's hand and trigger the rapture. When, for example, Jesus says "I go to prepare a place for you, that where I am ye may be also," most people think real estate. Mansions, golden streets, probably restaurants with free food- hopefully that elusive flying car they have dreamed about.

I don't think so. The "place" of which Jesus speaks is not geographical but relational. He is at one with the Father, and wants us to be one with Him. When that happens- voila, Rapture. But we don't need to go anywhere, we are already in our destination. In Christ, filling Him who fills all in all. In my opinion Jesus did give us a glimpse of that rapture glory on the mount of transfiguration. For a very brief time He was clothed with rapture, only to take it off so He could purchase the same for us.

As for this separation of the Jews and the church? Jesus did not separate the great commission into two streams, one for the Jews, one for everyone else. As Paul asserts, and he had to have revelation to say this, there is no longer Jew or Greek. There is a world of sinners and Christ followers, and for theologians to reconstitute people groups by artificial qualifications is to insult the gospel by which all men must be saved.

Moreover, there is no prophetic stream that illustrates the flyaway rapture. God puts His revelations to us into these multigenerational prophetic streams so that we are protected from the Johnny-come-Lightbulbs who have the big secret from God to lead us to wherever they think we should go. People like Mohammed, Charles T. Russell, Joseph Smith- all selling their soap without the confirmation of prophetic roots. The Pre-trib rapture doctrine, originating around the time of Margaret McDonald in 1837, is very suspect for this same reason.

I am also very suspect of doctrines with strong appeal to the desires of my flesh. Leave the world of crime, rot, and corruption to go to a nice dinner somewhere up in the sky?? Hey- sign me up for that! But it is a far cry from Paul's words where he says he would be willing to give up his salvation if it could mean the salvation of his Pharisee brethren. A long ways from Charles Finney's cry- "God if I can serve you best in Hell, send me there!"

Or Jesus as He faced the cross. "Not My will but Thine be done."

In the past century literally millions of Christians have been murdered by the atheist regimes of the Communists and other anti-God governmental systems. They were not plucked away to safety, even as the words of Jesus warn in Matthew 24.

My flesh has no interest in going through pain and suffering. But the Spirit of Christ within me says, "Bring it on, that great battle that will usher in the reign of Christ and destroy all of Satan's strongholds!"

Jesus gave a special command to the disciples when they asked Him how to pray. He said, "Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven."

We should still be praying for that, because it is obviously in His heart to be accomplished. That's the Rapture I'm looking for.

hi, the Lord told me to take no thought of tomorrow and live ready day by day.i can't do anything about what happens for i am not in control of anything about it... it also could be that i developed the most heretical and unusual escatology and would be kicked off the internet if i went into it.a sample ... i was on my way to leon (mexico) from saltillo and was looking down at the clouds.i believe that dan.3 is very much end timeprophesy. enough.jimp

Absolutely agree with you, Frank.

The system is actually very complex, because, I believe, that error begets error and if you continue down the path of error you end up with something monsterous.

I have been pleasantly refreshed and edified by this view.

http://www.christinyou.net/pages/revel.html

Pilgrim

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I believe, that error begets error and if you continue down the path of error you end up with something monsterous.

And the first "error" which leads to all the others is believing that the bible is the Word of God, and is to be understood in the way God intended. If a parable or metaphor is used, it is to be understood as such. Otherwise, it is to be understood literally. There is no room for man's spiritualising and alegorising of the old testament, the common practice today.
All the other "errors" spring from this and produce, not something monstrous, but a full understanding of God's purposes and will.

But we have been diverted from EvangelTam's posting.

Although I did contend that there are no events prophesied to be fulfilled in this present church age, there is an important section of scripture which, as well as Paul's, Jude's and John's letters, I believe, fortells the state of the church, or rather churches, of Christ during this age. You guessed it: Revelation chapters 2 and 3.

You will have read these letters to the churches and seen their fallen state in the eyes of Jesus Christ walking in the midst of the 7 golden candlesticks. I would ask " is our church today better than theirs? After all the revivals of His Holy Spirit shed on us, are not the churches still the same?"

But there is one church - Philadelphia - where Jesus, the Holy and True, commends them with no rebuke. Why?

"for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. " Rev 3 v 8.

And His promise to them is:

Rev 3:10 " Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from (lit. out of) the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. "

This is not seen as a great church in the midst of revival, changing society and goverments, but "of little strength", His "little flock", His "little children", His lovers of the brethren (lit philadelphia).

David

"This is not seen as a great church in the midst of revival, changing society and goverments, but "of little strength", His "little flock", His "little children", His lovers of the brethren (lit philadelphia)."

I believe this is the victorious church of the last days. A church of "little strength" but with a mighty God who will perform wonders in their midst for His glory on the earth.

I would also argue that Joel 2 points to some sort of Holy Spirit outpouring/revival in the last days....

And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions. Joel 2:28

This is of course quoted by Peter at Pentecost however I believe it was only a partial fullfillment since the Spirit at that time was poured out on Jews only.

"As for a last days world wide revival hmm yes I guess that can be arguable depending on the definition of revival I would say that in order for a victorious to rise up there needs to be a revival for it to be awakened. I would say that will be a last days harvest of souls.

But our faith can not be built on "It makes sense that"; and "I would say that", but rather "thus saith the Lord."

Sorry to support the point that a church will arise over the forces of darkness in the last days I would quite Matthew 16:18

"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

Ever since the Resurrection it has been the "last days".

"In the first proclamation of the early church, Peter quoted Joel’s prophecy of the “last days” (Joel 2:28) saying it was fulfilled by the Pentecostal manifestation
of the Spirit of Christ (Acts 2:17). Now Paul commences
with the same theme that “in these last days God has spoken
to us in His Son.” The “last days” are not future. Rather, they began in the past when God historically revealed Himself incarnationally in the Son, and they continue throughout the new covenant “day of salvation” (II Cor. 6:2) unto the “last time” (cf. I Peter 1:5) of the future.

Although Jewish eschatology was always future-focused, Christian eschatology is focused on Christ, the fulfillment of God’s “last things”, and must necessarily be based on what Christ has already accomplished on our behalf in His “finished work” (John 19:30), all the while recognizing the perpetuity and continuum of His eternal work into the future. Christian eschatology will always
recognize the “already” and the “not yet” of God’s “last
things” in Jesus Christ. (James Fowler)"

Pilgrim

EvangelTam you write re Philadelphia

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"I believe this is the victorious church of the last days. A church of "little strength" but with a mighty God"

Amen to this. This is true faith. Faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, as our Head and our Glorious Bridegroom. Amen and Amen.

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"I would also argue that Joel 2 points to some sort of Holy Spirit outpouring/revival in the last days...."

This does not spring from faith. Faith speaks of what is true and experienced. You would benefit from reading all three chapters of Joel to see the context in which the Lord is saying these things. See the order of events in the prophesy, and to whom Jehovah is speaking. There is no "some sort of outpouring/ revival" spoken of here, but:

"He will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month." and:

"And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed. "

It is clearly speaking of Israel during the millenium, a prophesy partly fulfilled in Act 2 for the church.

I agree with you about Matthew 16 v18: "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.". It is wonderful to know, that He, acknowleged as the Son of God, will always be Head of the Body, and will keep it for Himself in the heavenlies.

David

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"This does not spring from faith. Faith speaks of what is true and experienced. You would benefit from reading all three chapters of Joel to see the context in which the Lord is saying these things. See the order of events in the prophesy, and to whom Jehovah is speaking. There is no "some sort of outpouring/ revival" spoken of here, but:

"He will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month." and:

"And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed. "

It is clearly speaking of Israel during the millenium, a prophesy partly fulfilled in Act 2 for the church."
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I have read the all three chapters of Joel but even in context this part of Joel 2 is a prophecy of the last days and not of Israel's immediate future.

I would also like to point out that we are still in the last days how much more so now then 2000 years ago? and like you said the prophecy was partly fulfilled in Acts 2.
To me this indicates that the Spirit is still to be poured out in a greater measure on ALL FLESH not just Jews in these last days. I guess this is what I am referring too when I say outpouring or revival. I mean that God is going to pour out His Spirit on many people from all tribes, tongues and nations.

sidewalk wrote:
I am sometimes intrigued by what Jesus didn't say when he could have. His disciples, both then and now, are anxious for knowledge of what is to come and they asked Him very directly about the end of the age. For some strange reason- He did not explain the rapture flight.

sidewalk wrote:
...most people think real estate. Mansions, golden streets, probably restaurants with free food- hopefully that elusive flying car they have dreamed about.

I don't think so. The "place" of which Jesus speaks is not geographical but relational. He is at one with the Father, and wants us to be one with Him.

sidewalk wrote:
As for this separation of the Jews and the church? Jesus did not separate the great commission into two streams, one for the Jews, one for everyone else.

sidewalk wrote:
I am also very suspect of doctrines with strong appeal to the desires of my flesh. Leave the world of crime, rot, and corruption to go to a nice dinner somewhere up in the sky??

appolus wrote:
The system is actually very complex, because, I believe, that error begets error and if you continue down the path of error you end up with something monsterous.

Thank you both (and others) for more to think about!!
God bless,
Lisa