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The doctrine of having a spiritual covering: by Eddie L. Hyatt

sermonindex Feb 3, 2012

Warning: This is a very long article about submission and authority, which seems to be central now and then to SI, but may not interest most. I though it was so well done, and so right on, it was worthy of posting....and crosses over into reformed theology, head-coverings, and the Pastoral roles also.

In light of recent discussions about the limits of control a Pastor may have, or for that matter a husband may have, I found it enlightening and welded into holy scripture and doctrine. I think it is the most lengthy article I have ever posted...but I'm sure a few here will enjoy it's thoroughness.....Tom


Who's Your covering?

Eddie L. Hyatt
Breaking Free of Doctrines that Bind & Oppress.

I recently heard that a well-known female Christian leader, who assumed leadership of the church she and her husband founded after he succumbed to cancer, had announced that she was now under the “covering” of a certain well-known male pastor in another city. I was disappointed to hear that she felt the need to have a male “covering,” but it confirmed to me how deeply ingrained the “covering” doctrine is among Pentecostals and Charismatics. This doctrine, of course, purports that God works through delegated authority and everyone must, therefore, be submitted to a human authority, which functions as their covering” or protection. It has been especially applied to women as needing to be under the authority or “covering” of a man.

The problem with this teaching is that it places a human mediator between the believer and God and there is only One Mediator between God and humanity—the Lord Jesus Christ (I Timothy 2:5). This teaching also undermines the Biblical truth of the priesthood of all believers by putting an individual or an organization between the believer and Christ. It also diminishes the redemptive work of Christ for it implies that Christian women are not able to relate to God on their own apart from male mediation.

This Teaching is not found in Scripture

In light of its popularity and acceptance, one would think that it would be easy to document this teaching with Scripture. The truth is, however, that it is glaringly absent from Scripture. We never hear of Paul talking about his “covering,” nor do we hear him claiming to be anyone else’s “covering.” Instead, in Galatians 1:1, he speaks of his independence from the Twelve and other Christian leaders, declaring his apostolic calling to be, Not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead. To the Colossian believers who were being led astray by false teachers, Paul reminds them that they are complete, not in Paul, but in Christ. For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him (Colossians 2:9-10).

Jesus too is silent about the need for a human “covering.” After cleansing the temple he was confronted by the religious leaders who demanded to know, By what authority are you doing these things? And who gave you this authority? They knew he was not ordained or authorized by them, so they wanted Him to explain His right or authority to carry out such an act? In contemporary terminology, they were asking, “Who’s your covering?”

Jesus responded by asking them a question and when they would not answer, he told them he would not tell them the source of His authority (Matthew 21:23-27). Jesus, of course, derived His authority directly from God. The Pharisees and Sadducees, however, could not accept this for they believed, like many preachers today, that God mediated all spiritual authority through the institutions they had established. In their minds, they were the “covering” for all Israel and Jesus was functioning outside their covering.

This Teaching Unheard of Before the 1970s

In light of the Biblical silence about this issue, we must ask how this teaching has gained such a stranglehold on the Pentecostal-Charismatic movement. The answer is a historical one and can be traced back to events within the Charismatic Renewal of the 1970s-80s.

Before the 1970s the “covering” doctrine was unheard of in the Spirit-filled movement. I grew up in a Pentecostal pastor’s home and never heard the idea of a “covering” ever mentioned or even alluded to in the way it is taught today. It was not until the 1970s when I attended a Bible school that was at the forefront of the Charismatic Renewal that I heard this word “covering” used in the authoritarian sense and particularly applied to women and their need for a male covering (this school actually opposed this teaching at that time). It was through the Charismatic Renewal of the 1970s that traditional teachings from the older churches about Spiritual authority being mediated through hierarchical leadership (which is the basis of the “covering” doctrine) were introduced into the Pentecostal-Charismatic movement.

The Charismatic Renewal Became a Bridge
with Doctrinal Traffic Flowing in both Directions

The Charismatic Renewal of the 1970s was a powerful work of the Holy Spirit and was very ecumenical with Catholics, Pentecostals, Episcopalians, Lutherans, etc. participating together in great conferences. Pentecostals, such as David Duplessis, Gordon Lindsay, and Oral Roberts, went out of their way to reach out to those in the older churches and denominations. As a result, many in the older churches experienced the baptism in the Holy Spirit and reached back across denominational and theological lines. Bridges were thus built between Pentecostals and those of the older churches.

We must remember, however, that a bridge carries traffic in both directions. And although the Pentecostals were able to carry their message of the baptism in the Holy Spirit and the present reality of Spiritual gifts to those in the older churches, they were recipients of traditional teaching coming from the other side about hierarchical leadership and the importance of being submitted to spiritual authority and under its “covering” or protection. They also received traditional teaching from the older churches about why women should be excluded from leadership roles in the church. These were new concepts to Pentecostals for, from the beginning of the revival in 1901, there had been an amazing openness to the gifts of women and a flattened sort of leadership in which leaders were called “brother” and “sister,” but never “father,” “bishop,” or other flattering, hierarchical titles.

Traditional Doctrines Intrude into the Movement

Many Pentecostals as well as the newer independent charismatics seemed awed at being in the presence and dialoguing with priests and theologians from the older denominations. And having little knowledge and training in historical theology, this made some of them (especially those desiring institutional power) susceptible to the traditional doctrines touted by those from the older, traditional churches.

An example of this came out of the Catholic-Pentecostal Dialogues, established in the early 1970s by David Duplessis and involving a number of Roman Catholic theologians and Pentecostal leaders who came together on a regular basis to seek common ground in their traditions. In 1976, after several years of involvement in these Dialogues, three Pentecostal leaders, Earl Paulk, John Meares and Robert McAlister, decided to adopt the Catholic/Episcopal form of church government for their churches. They began wearing clerical collars and made arrangements to have themselves consecrated as bishops. Another participant in the Dialogues, Dr. Jerry Sandidge, says that their decision to adopt traditional offices, titles, clothing, and doctrine was perceived by those on both sides of the Dialogues to be a direct result of the Roman Catholic influence in the Dialogues.[1] These men became very influential in the Pentecostal-Charismatic movement and helped promote a Catholic, hierarchical form of leadership that provided the theological basis for the “covering” doctrine. Yes, the traffic runs in both directions on a bridge and this certainly occurred in the Charismatic Renewal of the 1970s.

Out of this emphasis on spiritual authority that flowed from the older churches into the Charismatic Renewal, there emerged the Discipleship movement of the 1970s-80s that took the hierarchical “covering” doctrine to its extremes. In this movement it was commonly taught that a woman must always be under the “covering” of a man. If she needed to leave her home to do some shopping and could not get in touch with her husband to obtain his permission, then she must contact another man and get his permission so that she would always be under authority and “covered.” I remember hearing of one Christian man who decided to divorce his wife because he “could not bring her into submission.”

Although the Discipleship movement was eventually discredited, the same authoritarian spirit keeps reappearing dressed in different religious garb and called by different religious names. It is showing up today in places like the apostolic movement with its claims of governmental authority over God’s people, and the convergence movement that seeks to merge traditional high church liturgy and priestly order with the freedom of the Spirit.

The Fallacious Biblical Argument Exposed

The one Scripture that is used more than any other to try and validate the “covering” doctrine is I Corinthians 11:10 which, in the NKJV, reads, For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head because of the angels. If you are reading the NKJV you will notice that the phrase a symbol of is in italics. This is the translators’ way of letting us know that these words have been added and are not in the original Greek text. The same is true of the NIV which has a sign of which is not in the Greek text. In other words, this passage has nothing to do with a symbol or sign of authority as so many have made it out to be.

The Greek text literally reads, For this reason the woman out to have authority on (or over) her head because of the angels. The preposition translated “on” is epi and ordinarily means “over.” This has led some New Testament scholars, such as Dr. Gordon Fee, to conclude that Paul is here saying that the Christian woman ought to have authority over her own head to decide if she wants to wear a covering or not. He, therefore, suggests that a more accurate translation would be, For this reason the woman ought to have the freedom over her head to do as she wishes.[2]

This entire passage is obviously about a cultural issue in Corinth where the wearing of some sort of head covering or veil is a customary practice. Some have speculated that this passage is related to a situation in the Corinthian culture where only the temple prostitutes of Aphrodite, whose magnificent temple was in Corinth, went about with shaved and uncovered heads. Be that as it may, Paul is addressing the question of whether Christian women must adhere to the cultural norms of the city in which they live. The best interpretation of the passage is that Paul is affirming the right of Christian women in Corinth to decide for themselves if they want to wear a head covering. The passage has nothing to do with being under someone else’s authority

What about the phrase because of the angels? New Testament scholar, Philip Payne, has suggested that the answer lies with I Corinthians 6:3 where Paul says that in the future world the saints will judge angels. Paul’s point would be that the Christian women of Corinth, who would one day judge angels, should be exercising authority now over such insignificant matters as whether to wear a head covering.[3]

God Himself Will be Your Covering

Through Jesus Christ our One Mediator, we can have a personal, intimate relationship with our Creator and know Him as our “covering,” as David spoke of in Psalm 91. Psalm 91:1 reads, He who dwells in the secret place of the Most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Under the shadow is a metaphor or word picture for “a protective covering.” The protective covering is not a pastor, church or denomination. It is, instead, a personal thing between the individual and God. God Himself—El-Shaddai—will be our covering when we live in that secret place—that place of intimacy and fellowship with Him. This passage is clearly saying that the one who dwells continually in a place of personal intimacy with God will live under His protective care and be nourished and sustained by His own life.

Concluding Thoughts

Respect Christian leaders, Christian institutions, and fellow believers, but do not allow anyone to become a mediator between you and God. Maintain the Biblical truth of the priesthood of all believers (I Peter 2:9; Revelation 1:5-6). Remember that the redemptive work of Christ applies equally to both men and women as Paul so aptly states in Galatians 3:28, There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

As a Christian leader, I believe that an attitude of genuine humility and security in our calling will eliminate the need to promote oppressive “covering” doctrines that paralyze the body of Christ. I believe that as believers in general practice a mutual love and respect toward one another, the need and desire for an authoritarian “covering” will dissipate like the morning dew for we will realize that we are all under the covering of Christ and in mutual love we will hold one another accountable and be a protection for one another and for our brothers and sisters around the world.

Who’s your covering? It should be Jesus Christ! It should be God Himself!

By Eddie L. Hyatt

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pilgrim777 Feb 3, 2012

I do remember the whole Bob Mumford, Derek Prince and Jose Luis Ortiz discipleship/covering error. They showed themselves to be humble men of God in repenting for that error, too. It is interesting how it all happened and that is a story in itself. I may write a bit about it.

Bottom line is that we have liberty in Christ to follow Christ and there is no law we have to follow if we are walking according to the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus...against such there is no law.

We have no other mediators. The accountability movement is also in error. We are to be accountable to God only. If we concentrate on that, then our relationships with men will be as God wants them to be. Conversely, you can be "accountable" to men, but still not be accountable to God. That is the error of the Accountability Movement and the fact that we get our orders from heaven, not men.

Good article.

Thanks,
Pilgrim

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roadsign Feb 3, 2012

Many thanks Brothertom for posting this article. The “covering” doctrine reminds me of medieval Catholicism. However, I suspect that it is more related to fleshly nature between the genders than to religious tradition.

It is always tempting for males to find ways to serves their fleshly power drives, BUT it is also appealing for women to have a “covering” ….. or rather a “knight in shining armor”. I wonder how many charming-type males in this movement found themselves needing to be “spiritual coverings”. I wonder how many questionable relationships were spawned in this doctrinal environment – where healthy relational boundaries were compromised by a misuse of scripture. I wonder how many marriages were broken.

And, to be honest, I can think of one: A close relative of mine by marriage is a direct descendent of one of the names mentioned in the article. Whatever happened, and if it relates to her parent’s divorce, remains a mystery. She refuses to talk about this entire movement. She doesn’t want to relive the pain. As she said, “It’s better to put it out of my mind.” All she disclosed is that the movement took precedence over the family. The full story remains hidden… for now.

False teaching, like this one, reaps its fruit, but sometimes it is the subsequent generations who must eat it.

PS: I found Fee’s commentary most refreshing. Rather than turn scripture into a (yet another) prohibition, it liberates the believer (women) to be responsible and mature members in God’s kingdom. This is bound to create effective mutual accountability - and a spiritually healthy church.

Again, MANY THANKS for posting this article. I had no idea that this "feature" was part of the movement's package.

Diane

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pilgrim777 Feb 3, 2012

PS: I found Fee’s commentary most refreshing. Rather than turn scripture into a (yet another) prohibition, it liberates the believer (women) to be responsible and mature members in God’s kingdom. This is bound to create effective mutual accountability - and a spiritually healthy church.

"Responsible and mature members in God's kingdom"!

If this were baseball, your statement roadsign, would be a homerun.

Why do we need men controlling us if we have the Holy Spirit?

The "control" of men is so different than the harmonic "control" and "leading" of the Holy Spirit.

Once you know the Lord you resist any control by devil or man as it violates your will and God's Spirit in us loathes that violation. Indeed, loathes and recoils at any violation of His children.

Pilgrim

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learjet Feb 3, 2012

This is an excellent article! Thank you very much for posting this.

Coming from a pentecostal background I never felt good about the teaching, it never set well with me for some reason. I always felt that it put my pastor between me and the Lord and I could never find that in the Bible. Additionally, it set up an authoritarian rule in the churches that I attended and generally leads to much bondage, trust me, many personal scars.

Here is the scripture that is often used out of context that keeps people in bondage:

So Jesus went with them. But just before they arrived at the house, the officer sent some friends to say, “Lord, don’t trouble yourself by coming to my home, for I am not worthy of such an honor. I am not even worthy to come and meet you. Just say the word from where you are, and my servant will be healed. I know this because I am under the authority of my superior officers, and I have authority over my soldiers. I only need to say, ‘Go,’ and they go, or ‘Come,’ and they come. And if I say to my slaves, ‘Do this,’ they do it.” -Luke 7:6-8

What authority is this man talking about? It's the Lord's authority over sickness, and demonic influences. The soldier recognized that when Jesus said 'go' or 'do this' it happened just like his experience with soldiers and slaves.

Who was Jesus submitted to? The Lord directly!

It says in Revelation 1:5b-6 that we are a 'kingdom of priests'

To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

and 1 Peter 2:4-6 that we are a 'royal priesthood'

As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him— you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house[a] to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For in Scripture it says:

Who do priests answer to? The Lord directly, Christ alone is our mediator, AND PRAISE THE LORD FOR THAT!!

Nearly every week I see an article or hear a message who talks about 'coverings' and spreads around the dogma. I'm so thankful that I truly know in my heart now that NO ONE stands between me and Jesus, that's freedom!

I just heard a pastor that I have a great deal of respect for tell his congregation this week that 'if you aren't submitted UNDER a local pastor you are in rebellion' and it saddened me. There is no over and under in the New Testament, we all stand on the same level, with that being said I go out of my way to make life easy for them so that their 'accounting for my soul' will be an easy yoke to bear for them. :-)

Thanks again!

sermonindex Feb 3, 2012

"PS: I found Fee’s commentary most refreshing. Rather than turn scripture into a (yet another) prohibition, it liberates the believer (women) to be responsible and mature members in God’s kingdom. This is bound to create effective mutual accountability - and a spiritually healthy church."....Roadsign

Amen! My sentiments exactly. Sisters have been reduced to second class citizens within this servitude/submissive role that quenches their gifting and ministry.

Ministry is in THE HOLY SPIRIT and Christ is neither male nor female, or of the racially elite [ Jews ], and when Jesus ascended, He gave gifts to men, male and female. I believe in ALL of Isaiah 61 for all of our sisters and brothers. We are a body, and members one of another, and when we assemble, we come together in holiness as members one of another.

"How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying."

When all of you come together, not just the males. That's body life, and how we ought to be functioning, in the community, and the meetings. I really liked the liberty exposed here for sisters with this unique and scholarly approach to the "Head Covering"/Submissive" role of sisters.

[ Here is the core of Fee's study that Roadsign found so "refreshing", and so do I. [ A main reason why I posted this..]

"HAVING THE FREEDOM OVER HER OWN HEAD TO DO AS SHE WISHES!"

The Greek text literally reads, For this reason the woman out to have authority on (or over) her head because of the angels. The preposition translated “on” is epi and ordinarily means “over.” This has led some New Testament scholars, such as Dr. Gordon Fee, to conclude that Paul is here saying that the Christian woman ought to have authority over her own head to decide if she wants to wear a covering or not. He, therefore, suggests that a more accurate translation would be, For this reason the woman ought to have the freedom over her head to do as she wishes.

This entire passage is obviously about a cultural issue in Corinth where the wearing of some sort of head covering or veil is a customary practice. Some have speculated that this passage is related to a situation in the Corinthian culture where only the temple prostitutes of Aphrodite, whose magnificent temple was in Corinth, went about with shaved and uncovered heads.

Be that as it may, Paul is addressing the question of whether Christian women must adhere to the cultural norms of the city in which they live. The best interpretation of the passage is that Paul is affirming the right of Christian women in Corinth to decide for themselves if they want to wear a head covering. The passage has nothing to do with being under someone else’s authority."..............................

This might be a hard nut to crack for many reformed sects that have culturally been here for centuries....but we are one body.


[ I want to add that any freedom can be taken away by the flesh...by men and women. I also firmly believe that the Apostolic and Shepherd ministries with the holy Church are always male...and at the same time believe that women ARE the weaker vessel.....but the ministry is of the Holy Spirit...Christ Jesus emanating from within a vessel, be it male or female. ALL OF ISAIAH 61, WITHOUT ELDERING OR SHEPHERDING OVER MEN, OR THE CHURCH.]

We have deprived ourselves of one half, 50% of the ministry by shutting out our sisters....and remember, the meeting has always been a body functioning together as one...with gifting, revelation, faith, utterances and teaching. Together, we are the Temple of the Holy Spirit...not just one male teacher or Pastor.

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brothagary Feb 3, 2012

this artical seems to take all athority from the husbane who IS THE HEAD of the wife ,and all the athority from the pasters and elders ,who were ascribed spiritual athority in the churches , to rubuke, corect ,reprove ,teach, exort,excomunacate

and raises the athority of the baby in christ to that of an elder

the bible talks about ascribing double honer to working elders where due

i dont think i agrree with ,this so called covering doctrine as taught by the romanizes ,,,but what i read seems to be a neejerk reaction in an unbibilcal direction as well
it make us all elders and laws unto our selfs ,acountable to no one ,,,,,thats friends in all pride ,and is a verry dangerous doctrine ,,,,,,

i believe this artical is clearly a falty interprtation

of head ship, and submission

now ,for me at this time due to bad experance with finding a church in my town ,,,,,finding my self in a oneness pentacostal church in the begining of my walk and becoming verry susipious of churches ,due to contact with liberalisim in our churches

i have never been under the athority of any pasters in reality ,,,,,so iam ,not using any preconceived ideas wrougt by the way i was taught in church

only a short ,12 years of bible study ,and a walk with christ,,who is my only true covering

athority and submission to deliever rubukes and exortation with spirtual athority is a clear theam of newtestament life ,,,i dont feel i need to insult a persons bible inteligents ,by posting what paull wrote about this ,,unless im asked

bless you all


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roadsign Feb 3, 2012

but what i read seems to be a neejerk reaction in an unbibilcal direction as well
it make us all elders and laws unto our selfs ,acountable to no one ,,,,,thats friends in all pride ,and is a verry dangerous doctrine ,,,,,,

Brothagary, Would you mind quoting the lines from which you arrive at this observation?

Many thanks,

Diane

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brothagary Feb 3, 2012

the whole artical in one line

a reaction ,to pharsaical athorarian type rulers in the so called church

sermonindex Feb 3, 2012

"We are, male and female, a Spiritual house, and a Royal Priesthood."....

"You also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

"Who do priests answer to? The Lord directly, Christ alone is our mediator, AND PRAISE THE LORD FOR THAT!!

"Nearly every week I see an article or hear a message who talks about 'coverings' and spreads around the dogma. I'm so thankful that I truly know in my heart now that NO ONE stands between me and Jesus, that's freedom!"....Learjet

This issue may be the decisive battle in these last days over who rules the Church....the Priest-Class; the Pastor over the Pew class, or the Lord Jesus over a jointly fitted body where each joint, male and female, provides and is used; members of one another.

Jesus was murdered for this exact issue; WHO would rule the Church.........

Then the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered a council and said, “What shall we do? For this Man works many signs.

48 If we let Him alone like this, everyone will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and nation.”

"Then, from that day on, they plotted to put Him to death."

I call this the religious spirit, which I see as Satan within the church, to tempt men to rule, because they think they deserve it. I have a maxim; when man is in control, Jesus is driven out...and it is always true....whether the service is orderly, or "blessed".

Ambition is the twin sister of Pride...and our duty is to allow the Holy Spirit to rule, and realize that it is Jesus' Church; He paid for her,. and loves her. The duty of the Pastors [ always plural ], elders, is to assure that He, the Holy Spirit is not quenched, and given free reign to rule and reign, as He is glorified within His Living Temple.

Believe it or not, He is quite able to do this all by Himself if we are willing to lay our agenda down, in love, and unto the least of the brothers or sisters, whoever that may be.

Thanks Learjet for you testimony.

sermonindex Feb 3, 2012

In all honesty I almost shuddered when I saw the title if this thread. I thought here we go again. But after reading iti found the article to be very liberating. Bottom line Christ Jesus is our ultimate covering and authority.

The danger I see is those who advocate a covering doctrine in the body of Christ are doing what the Moslems do. In Saudi Arabia western educated women cannot go out in oublic without the berka and a male escort of their family. Sound familiar? Before the U S led invasion of Afghanistan women were kept in prison in their own homes and could not venture out without being veiled head to foot in black and family male escort. Women were denied education. Still the same in most parts if the M E. If the extremist gave their way, all of the M E and the world.

This is why I shudder when I see pro coverings in this forum. In all honesty I do not know what is more unnerving. The rabid Moslem or the rabid Christian.

Blaine Scogin.

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brothagary Feb 3, 2012

this athority mentioned here by paul was not apointed to every believer,,, but certaint male believrs

the task is cleary showns here in scripture ,,and who is to fulfill the tasks

pulling scripture out of contex doesnt change cotexual letter written to deal with this presice situation ,in question

Qualified Elders

5 For this reason I left you in Crete, that you should set in order the things that are lacking, and appoint elders in every city as I commanded you— 6 if a man is blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of dissipation or insubordination. 7 For a bishop[b] must be blameless, as a steward of God, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, 8 but hospitable, a lover of what is good, sober-minded, just, holy, self-controlled, 9 holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict.

The Elders’ Task

10 For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, 11 whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain. 12 One of them, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” 13 This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, 14 not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth. 15 To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled. 16 They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.

Footnotes:a.Titus 1:4 NU-Text reads and Christ Jesus.
b.Titus 1:7 Literally overseer

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roadsign Feb 3, 2012

raises the athority of the baby in christ to that of an elder

I don't see how this can be deduced from the article. I do not believe the author is suggesting this at all. As I see it, it's an issue of personal responsibility for one's spiritual maturity. When certain people are kept in a state of spiritual/emotional dependency, willingly or not, that person cannot mature.

Strangely, this has been a gender issue. You don't see this in the parent-child relationship. Maybe that's because children are expected to grow up and become mature adults, not dependent children the rest of their lives. (That's not to exclude the need to learn from the more mature elders)


That's how I understand it, brother. Does that make sense?

Diane

sermonindex Feb 3, 2012

This article seems to take all authority from the husband who IS THE HEAD of the wife ,and all the authority from the pastors and elders ,who were ascribed spiritual authority in the churches ,to rebuke,correct ,reprove ,teach, exhort, [ and ]excommunicate. .....Brothagary..[ spellchecked ]

Not at all Gary. Of course a woman is to submit to her husband as head, and as Sarah who went so far as to call her husband lord....BUT...a woman is only to submit to her husband IN THE LORD...meaning, she still has every responsibility to submit to Christ first. The head of every man, and woman is Christ. Without this, there is no faith at all, but a blind faith that will not enable you to know God at all.

Without Godly Pastors the Church will perish, if it were possible. These are always plural; never singular and do three basic things;

FEED THE CHURCH OF GOD.

PROTECT THE CHURCH OF GOD.

MANIFEST THE LORDSHIP OF JESUS IN THE MEETING, AND COMMUNITY.

True Pastors will enhance body-life, and see that all are loved equally, and encourage, both men and women, to glorify Jesus by giving all in Godly order.

Colossians 2:4-6
King James Version (KJV)

"And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.

"For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.

"As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him."

Not all order is the kind that has a church bulletin that tells you beforehand everything that the Holy Spirit is going to do and say...and not all ministry in the world originated with the male only.

Remember, there were 120 men and women in the Upper Room...when they received Christ through the baptism of the Holy Spirit.....not just men. Ministry comes out of vessels that He lives in.

[ PS ] Your spelling is really bad. Download a google toolbar, for free, with a spell check button. I use it every post, and it makes me look like I got an edumucation! lol It's real easy....tom

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brothagary Feb 3, 2012

so are you saying that the elders dont have the resonasability to feed the baby in christ unto maturity ,

as you said it is a personal resonsability for ones spiritual maturity

bless you diane

im going house hunting with my preious wife ,,so i would love to continue this thread later

i agree an elders task is not to keep a baby in spirtual depedence there whole life


but i also believe a believers task is not to take the athority of the elders upon them selves ,,,

S
sarahsdream Feb 3, 2012

Gary, can you tell me what the authority of your elder is in your life and your wife's life? Glad you are taking yur wife house hunting with you. Big mistake not to. You have wisdom. The Bible says to dwell with your wife in wisdom. :-)

Good job!

Martyr,

In all honesty I almost shuddered when I saw the title if this thread. I thought here we go again. But after reading iti found the article to be very liberating. Bottom line Christ Jesus is our ultimate covering and authority.

Me too Martyr, then I saw it was Tom and knew it would be good.

Pilgrim

L
learjet Feb 4, 2012

Glad you are taking yur wife house hunting with you. Big mistake not to. You have wisdom. The Bible says to dwell with your wife in wisdom. :-)

LOL, had to agree here! :-)

sermonindex Feb 4, 2012

As I reflected upon the article and the good post in this thread I was prompted to the above verses in Galatians. Under the New Covenant we are sons and daughters with God as our Father. We live by faith in him. Bottom line he is our authority. He is our covering. Yet the Spirit who lives on our hearts enables us to call out Abba Father. We live in a beautiful love relationship to him as father to child. This I find so beautiful, refreshing, and freeing. Any thoughts.

Blaine Scogin

sermonindex Feb 4, 2012

"As I reflected upon the article and the good post in this thread I was prompted to the above verses in Galatians. Under the New Covenant we are sons and daughters with God as our Father. We live by faith in him. Bottom line he is our authority."

"He is our covering. Yet the Spirit who lives on our hearts enables us to call out Abba Father. We live in a beautiful love relationship to him as father to child. This I find so beautiful, refreshing, and freeing. Any thoughts."..........Martyr....[ Galatians 3:26 and 4:7 ]

Thanks Blaine. Our responsibilities in life end up, as sons and daughters, as to whether we please our Heavenly Father, or do not. It is He alone that "TRIES THE REINS AND HEARTS "

"The LORD shall judge the people: judge me, O LORD, according to my righteousness, and according to mine integrity that is in me.

"Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins.

"My defence is of God, which saveth the upright in heart."


......."And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works."....Some works are wicked, and we must be careful to keep our hearts right.

Not only is this relationship a loving one, but a responsible one. It is not to be taken advantage of, through a wrong understanding of our position. If we do not have holiness of heart as our standard in the midst of this love, nor endure the discipline required to allow Him adapt us, change us, we will not gain Him.

Some, he will kill their children with death. In his love we must also fear Him, with real fear.

[ PS ] I just returned from Israel a few months ago and lived their in a Jewish household and community.[Moshav ].

The Jewish men seem to be much more involved with their families than Americans, and there was a school on the property also [ Neve' Ilan ].

I heard the cries and calls many times there, ABBA!. Still, the Hebrew word for father. FATHER!

I like that sound, and also cry that name out often..HELP! I need Him, and I want Him.

L
learjet Feb 4, 2012

I was listening to Brother Zac today and he brought up this very topic. Here's what he said:

"Every preacher who comes between the child of God and Jesus Christ is a deceiver, a spiritual adulterer who is coveting another person’s wife"

It's a great message that was just added to the CFC site here: http://cfcindia.com/web/mainpages/sermon.php?video_id=2048

Blessings

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