zarqon
Feb 6, 2012
I wonder...
I wonder...
I welcome you to the SI forum albeit with a bit of trepidation due to the question that you ask and the reply to your own question. I hope my concerns are unfounded.
If you are here to bring a brother's perceived shortcomings to everyone's attention then I would ask you to reconsider, we have enough of that type here already and they bring no fruit to bear here.
But to answer your question, Zac Poonen is one of the best Bible teachers I have ever heard. He is what I would truly call a "teacher" and the Lord's anointing is clearly upon his ministry. I thank God for Zac Poonen.
In Christ,
Ron
Zac Poonen has been involved in a church-planting ministry for about 40 years. He has written 25 books - mostly on the deeper Christian life. Many of these have been translated into a number of languages and have been circulated widely around the world. His wife, Annie, a medical doctor has also written a few books for young girls and mothers.
http://www.cfcindia.com/web/mainpages/bookshelf.php
Br. Zac Poonen was formerly an Indian Naval Officer who has been serving the Lord in India for the past 40 years as a Bible-teacher and elder having responsibility for a number of churches. He has written a number of books and articles in English which have been translated in other Indian languages as well.
His messages given in India and abroad are available on audio and video formats. Zac Poonen also supports himself and his family through "tent-making" and does not receive any salary for his services. He does not receive any royalty for any of his books, audio tapes, video tapes or CDs, published by Christian Fellowship Church.
http://www.ravensministry.com/zac.html
About Zac Poonen:
Zac Poonen was formerly an Indian Naval Officer who has been serving the Lord in India for nearly 50 years as a Bible-teacher. He has responsibility for a number of churches in India and abroad.
He has written more than 25 books and numerous articles in English - which have been translated into many Indian and foreign languages. His messages are available on audio CDs and video DVDs.
Like the other elders in CFC, Zac Poonen also supports himself and his family through "tent-making" and does not receive any salary for his services. He does not receive any royalty for any of his books, CDs or DVDs, that are published by Christian Fellowship Centre, Bangalore.
http://www.cfcindia.com/web/mainpages/about_us.php#abtzac
For Zac Poonen's personal testimony, go to the following links:
The Day Of Small Beginnings Vol.1 : The Preparation For A Ministry
http://www.cfcindia.com/web/mainpages/book_window.php?book=the_day_of_small_beginnings_volume1
The Day Of Small Beginnings Vol.2 : Building The Body Of Christ
http://www.cfcindia.com/web/mainpages/book_window.php?book=the_day_of_small_beginnings_volume2
Many thanks to Greg for posting this information about Zac Poonan. I was very interested to read his book and understand why he is so popular. Indeed it is good to hear about his integrity and witness in India and he is indeed a beacon and light upon a hill, having a spirit of humility and willingness to hear God. It is always good to hear about those who are preaching holiness but I have made a few observations over the years regarding those who have their roots in the Pentecostal movement even if they avoid the extremes and even dont see themselves as Pentecostals.
One important point which is always overlooked, is that Pentecostals in their beginings were in dispute with Holiness people at that time, and the Holiness people would never share a platform with them because of the disagrement over what happens at the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Pentecostals said it brought power and the evidence of tongues, though Zac is more moderate like others in saying that the scriptures say that not all speak in tongues. Holiness people however, said that entire sanctification comes with the Baptism, it is a baptism in the HOLY Spirit and the rest follows on from being delivered from the sin nature. And they denied tongues.
Today many Pentecostals revere those holiness people and turn a blind eye to their stance over tongues. If they were here today they would not be fellowshipping with the tongue speakers without contention.
So how can they each say they received the baptism and disagree so much on what occurs? I believe we must look for the fruit. If a man says he has been baptised by the HOLY Spirit and still say he is seeking after holiness, then he needs to look more deeply into what the Holiness teachers of old said because they were the ones who bore the fruit whereas a demonstration of gifts was not the proof shown in scripture.
One important point, I feel is this, that although it is good to see the Promised Land and talk about it and encourage others to look over and see it too, we can spend a whole lifetime doing this and IT WILL NOT GET US THERE.
It is just not enough to see the truth and not appropriate it for ourselves no matter how sincere or earnest we are. There are many like Zac who know the truth but as they have not entered in themselves, they cannot lead others in - they must enter in first. Zac admits himself that he has not entered in even though he has seen a great deal of improvement in himself, he still cannot give the witness of living without sin. It is easy to talk about entering in, but another thing entirely to do it.
Now here is the most contraversial thing I have to say. I know other charismatics who are doing the same as Zac but no matter how long they wait they do not enter in and the difference beween them and the ones who did enter in, and who have written many books on it and testimonies, is the speaking of tongues.
It is my belief that this is stopping them but I do not know of one who is willing to test the spirits and stop in order to see if I am telling the truth or not.
They are not willing to see if the Holiness teachers of old were actually right on this one, and the evidence is that they do not have the witness of entering His rest and living without sin.
May the Lord reveal His truth.
Dear Krautfrau
I find your observations very interesting, as it touches my life rather personally. I experienced freedom from sin, and it's power over me after my conversion, and for almost 6 months. Then gradually I started to fall into religiousness (too many church meetings, Bible school classes, following a Pastor etc, without spending time with Him alone) luke warmness, and eventually into sin again.
To be totally honest, I desire a "deeper work of Grace", and I would love to know how to receive it. I have fasted, repented, confessed, gone for deliverance, you name it … I can not say that I am on the other side of the Jordan at the moment.
Blessings
Hello jochbaptist
If you have been speaking in tongues then the first thing I would say is stop. It is not being disobedient to test the spirits. When the many who witnessed to the holy life did not practice this, neither Wesley, nor Finney nor any of the others, then it is wise to seek whether one has been mislead on this one. If one has then one could be saying words which stop the blessing.
Then I would advise you to read testimonies from the time of the Holiness Movement - those who witnessed to entire sanctification. There are testimonies on enterhisrest.com
The Lord has promised this and all it takes is to have faith in it and to walk according to the light one already has and the Lord will do what He said but if there are any wrong attitudes or lack of sincerity then it will be revealed and anyway there will be a time of great testing.
I will pray for you.
zarqon or is it zarqun? I think you know more than you reveal.
Is this you? What is your game? Did you forget the Internet is public?
I do not understand your post clearly. I know Brother Zac personally and I thank God everyday for his life witness. Zac speaks in tongues and he has accepted this. He does not do it in public. Once my church Elder asked Zac whether he has attained complete deliverance from Sin and he answered "close to attaining it". This is his personal answer and not something that he talks about in pulpit. Also I do not believe that one needs to become like Jesus to talk about Holiness. 1 John 3-9, clearly says that we will be like Jesus only when we see him face to face during his second coming. But till then our attitude should be to purify our self with this Hope. Even apostle Paul did not achieve it during his time of leadership.
Salvation has three parts and the first two parts that we experience on earth are Forgiveness and Freedom from sin. Jesus summed this up when he spoke to the Women caught in adultery (John 6) saying "Neither do i Condemn you, Go Sin no more". Zac believes in leading people into this second part of salvation which is currently hidden by Babylonian Churches.
Thanks for that confirmation that Zac has not been delivered from sin by his own admission. Although by his words he has made it plain that he believes that he can be delivered from sin in this life and this is the doctrine that he is preaching. Most who do get deliverance testify to it and in fact the teaching is that one will lose the blessing if one does not testify. This is not to boast but to glorify God. Yet you do not accept the teaching yourself - well that is your choice.
We see Him as He is when He baptises us with the Holy Spirit and we become holy as He is holy.
One can preach the doctrine, and Zac is doing so like Wesley who sought advice on this matter, all well and good and it is better that it is preached than not, but it takes one who has actuallyy entered in to lead others in.
Next time you see Zac tell him from me that he should test the spirits and stop the tongues then he might achieve his aim.
Next time you see Zac tell him from me that he should test the spirits and stop the tongues then he might achieve his aim.
1 Corinthians 4-4:-
My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me.
Having a clear conscience towards God does not mean we became Holy. I am sure Brother Zac has a clear conscience like Paul. Even I achieve it many days. But that does not mean I am holy. There are so many Sins that I commit unconsciously. The Holy Spirit reveals them to us as we continue walking with Spirit. So once you have been revealed of a new sin you repent of it and then by the power of Holy Spirit you overcome it. So it is a continuous process of sanctification. It cannot be done in 1 day. It was same for Paul, John and everyone who is born of Flesh (initially). This is called Growth in Jesus. Anything else that you preach is not what the Bible tells us.
If Brother Zac starts sharing such sins that the holy Spirit has revealed to him then we will all be so discouraged because we have been committing them unknowingly everyday and we are so far behind to reaching it. It will be like a PHD student sharing his question paper to a 3rd grade student. Even the men whom you think have had complete victory they will also be discouraged by Zac's standard.
For example once he said 'he considers even entertaining the thought that another women cooks better than his wife is adultery'. How many of us have such a high standard? This is God's standard for us, and we will get there as long as we keep walking in the Spirit keeping a clear conscience.
What I am trying to say here is Zac is in the process of Sanctification like how Paul, John and other men of God were on this earth.
Speaking in Tongues is not wrong. Bible encourages us to do it. God gifts us. But it should be inspired by Holy Spirit. You cannot speak whenever and where ever you want. There are some conditions and restrictions. It is a Gift that we get from God same as other gifts like prophesying. Please give me a Bible Quote that saying speaking in tongues is Wrong?
Sree,
Do you think Holy means sinless?
2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
These men were not sinless.
Is Peter talking about the Church here or just a few select Christians?
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
I am sure Brother Zac has a clear conscience like Paul. Even I achieve it many days. But that does not mean I am holy.
Don't you see how dangerous it is to keep likening Zac to Paul or John?
If Brother Zac starts sharing such sins that the holy Spirit has revealed to him then we will all be so discouraged because we have been committing them unknowingly everyday and we are so far behind to reaching it. It will be like a PHD student sharing his question paper to a 3rd grade student. Even the men whom you think have had complete victory they will also be discouraged by Zac's standard.For example once he said 'he considers even entertaining the thought that another women cooks better than his wife is adultery'. How many of us have such a high standard? This is God's standard for us, and we will get there as long as we keep walking in the Spirit keeping a clear conscience.
What I am trying to say here is Zac is in the process of Sanctification like how Paul, John and other men of God were on this earth.
To say such things about a brother is to do them a great disservice and elevate them higher than I think they would want. We should not want to be elevated at all. We must decrease and He must increase.
Pilgrim
Do you think Holy means sinless?
Don't you see how dangerous it is to keep likening Zac to Paul or John?
What is dangerous here? What makes you feel we are different from Paul? Paul and John are also sinners who were saved by the grace of God. I did not compare anyone to Jesus. If I did you can accuse me.
Brother this is what I am trying to prove here, we can also be like any other men of New Testament. There is nothing preventing us other than our unbelief.
What I explained there is Paul's standard might be very higher than you, me and even Zac but that does not mean that we cannot reach that standard. If Paul can have clear conscience then why can't I have.
To say such things about a brother is to do them a great disservice and elevate them higher than I think they would want. We should not want to be elevated at all. We must decrease and He must increase.
Obviously Brother Zac does not want anyone to think highly of himself, just like any Christian should be. This does not mean that we should not look up to him. I look up to him. Paul said follow me as I follow Christ. So if you look up to Paul and share it with others, is it wrong? I know he (Zac) has higher standard based on what I witnessed in his life and in his teachings. I shared it here. I did not say that he became like Jesus or that he is the most perfect man in world etc. I just said his standard is much higher.
Again you may not agree with me and think that you have got all the answers. I have responded to every single thing that you posted. If you seriously have any questions to be answered then please post. If you think you already have an answer then I don't have time to argue. Thanks for your post.
Even the men whom you think have had complete victory they will also be discouraged by Zac's standard.For example once he said 'he considers even entertaining the thought that another women cooks better than his wife is adultery'. How many of us have such a high standard? This is God's standard for us, and we will get there as long as we keep walking in the Spirit keeping a clear conscience.
I can certainly see why many are in awe of Zac. I must admit that is quite a high standard. My cooking would definitely make others sin (hope it did not). Fortunately, my wife's cooking is very good or according to this standard I might be in serious trouble.
But then you say "this is God's standard for us". Is that true? I have never thought that if I considered another wife cooked better than my wife that it would be considered adultery.
Certainly, there must be a way to compliment the cooking of a brother's wife without going over the line. You can simply say, "Your lasagna was very good". And then your wife can always ask for the recipe.
When I think of the standard of Jesus, I think of grace through faith. I think of love, mercy, forgiveness, holiness, gentleness and meekness.
Your thoughts are most welcome, but the standard of Jesus seems more attainable to me, for I have already violated Zac's. I do know some women that cook better than my wife, even though her cooking is excellent.
Blessings,
Pilgrim
But then you say "this is God's standard for us". Is that true? I have never thought that if I considered another wife cooked better than my wife that it would be considered adultery.
Pilgrim, I hope you had nice fun.
The Pharisees might have laughed when Jesus said getting angry at your brother is equivalent to murdering your brother (Matthew 5). How else will these men who did not repent for killing Prophets will react to anger? But that does not mean what Jesus said is not truth.
Indeed it is God's standard and I am answering you assuming you want to know the answer. Jesus said if you lust after another women you already committed adultery. So if you admire another women's body you have already committed adultery. How different it is if you admire another women's cooking skills and think it is better than what God has provided for you?
You are again agreeing on my point that there are unconscious sins in our life. The more we walk with Spirit we will get to know the unconscious sins in our life and become more like Jesus.
I am not here defending Zac, my point is that one does not need to be perfect to teach Holiness. We are all being perfected and will be perfect one day when Jesus returns. I want to end it here. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, too.
Pilgrim
Sree
My version does not say that. Paul is merely saying that he is not just by his own judgement. That does not mean that he still sins, it means that God makes him just and pronounces it.
Saying we sin unconciously is against the witness of the scripture which says that He keeps us from falling Jude 23. The Holy Spirit within enables us to avoid sin.
Zac Poonan does not preach gradual sanctification, he preaches the second blessing and if you who have heard him apparently on countless occasions, do not hear his message then it is pointless for me to get into a debate about holiness doctrine as your mind is obviously closed to it.
As Zac has not yet entered into the state of holiness, his understanding of it is rather coloured by his own thoughts. What he says sounds like a high standard but it is not - it is just silliness. He does not have to tell his wife though, but to deny a fact is lying. Why should his taste buds be the same as his wifes?
Speaking in foreign languages was allowed and still is.
And if you admire someone else's cooking you are now accused of being discontented "with what God has provided you".
I did not know that "admiring" a quality or trait or gift in someone else was a sin?
Dear Father,
Thank you for the price that was necessary to purchase all of your children. From my human view, it wasn't easy, I do not fully understand it, but thank You!
Thank You, also, for raising up brother Zac Poonen to preach Your Word. Thank You for your faithful servants the world over. Please uphold them by Your victorious right hand. Please protect them from the strivings of men, from the scourge of the tongues of men. Encourage their hearts when the going gets tough.
Would You also open their eyes to spiritual reality as You see it?
Please Father, help all of us, Your children, to be about the things that really matter. L
Thank You, Father, I ask these things in the name of Jesus, of Nazareth. Amen.
Amen to your prayer, Theophila.
Zac Poonan does not preach gradual sanctification
I am not saying I have heard all his sermons. But based on what I have heard he teaches Gradual Sanctification. Please read his book on -'Good Foundation'. He explains the 3 steps in Salvation clearly. The example I quoted comparing the Grade of Student to Growth in Christ was actually taken from him. Even Paul agrees there are different standard among believers that is why he says some can take only Milk and some take solid food. The standard I quoted earlier is a solid food and it cannot be had by all.
Saying we sin unconciously is against the witness of the scripture which says that He keeps us from falling Jude 23
No it is not. Then 1 John 1-8 is also contradicting to Jude 24. 1 John 1-8 says that "If we (believers) claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."
See Jude 24 talks about Stumbling. Stumbling is different from falling. Anyways Stumbling means committing a Sin that you know is a Sin which is Conscious sin. God protects us from that by the Power of Holy Spirit. John 1-8 talks about unconscious sin, though God protects us from conscious sin and helps us to have clear conscience towards him, it does not mean that we are sinless. We still need blood of Jesus for God not to look at our unconscious sin.
For example when I came to Christ from Hindu background I knew that talking low of someone is Pride. Once I overcame that by the power of Holy Spirit the Holy Spirit revealed to me that even if I entertain the thought that I am superior to another person in any area say education or athleticism, money, power etc, I have pride in my heart. Because Bible says that -'all I have is received from God'. Now I have to overcome that by his power. God gives power but I should be seeking his power to give up that attitude of Pride. This is growth in Christ. I am just giving you an example with Pride as sin. There are so many areas and we need to be Christlike in all these areas.
So when I stopped talking low of others my conscience might be clear that I have not sinned but that does not mean that I became Perfect and sinless. I have sins but I am unware of it. Once the Holy Spirit makes me aware of it I immediately seek to overcome that and repent as explained in 1 John 9.
See if you do not want to agree on unconscious sin then it is fine with me, you posted a question and I responded with another scripture and explained the answer. Lets stop here, I do not want to argue as I find Christ will never argue with someone who believes he has all the answers. Jesus did not speak a word to Herod, because he knew that Herod was not truly seeking an answer.
This discussion is locked.