roadsign
Feb 7, 2012
Wow, from the same man who advocates head coverings. He must not tie head coverings to legalism, or obedience to legalism. I'll check it out.
Well worth watching.
For the most part, the message was really good. Especially as he deals with the attitude of the heart. However, I think it was a little off balance as he failed to speak on many passages of scripture that deal with the same issue and speak to it a little differently.
For instance, in one passage you have Jesus fogivinv the adulteress, but in another passage you have Paul putting a fornicating/adulterer out of the church. Obviously, both instances were correct. But I'm not sure you could get that from this message.
But what he said about pharaseeism and mercy was challenging and a good reminder.
I think Zach was carful to point out that adultery is indeed a vile sin; but by way of contrast he suggests that adultery is a speck in the eye compared to judgmentalism that is a 'million times worse'. I don't see it as a green light to fornication/adultery, but a warning as to how serious a judgmental spirit really is. Just my take of it.
I agree Robert. I don't think he was giving a pass on adultery by any means, and what he said about judgementalism was good. To me, it just seemed like the message was a little off balance, almost like there was never a place to make a judgment regarding sin or a consequence for it. I'm sure Zac believes there's a place for both, it just didn't come across in this video.
On thing I really appreciate about Zac is his ability and effort to speak on things in simple ways. He can take deep truths and make them applicable in a way that most people can understand.
To me, it just seemed like the message was a little off balance, almost like there was never a place to make a judgment regarding sin or a consequence for it. I'm sure Zac believes there's a place for both, it just didn't come across in this video.
Do you think there is a place for Judgment among believers? Is there a Bible verse supporting your thought?
Regarding Paul throwing an Adulterous man out of Church, here this step was taken by Paul who was either an Elder or overseer for that Church. I don't think every single member of Church has authority to Judge and make decisions on who is to be kept in Church.
The point I am trying to make is if Brother Zac was addressing the Church members he does not need to talk about the responsibility and authority of Elders. This will unnecessarily confuse the listeners.
And ye are puffed up, and did not rather mourn, that he that had done this deed might be taken away from among you. For I verily, being absent in body but present in spirit, have already as though I were present judged him that hath so wrought this thing, in the name of our Lord Jesus, ye being gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, to deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1 Corinthians 5:2-5 ASV)
Do you think there is a place for Judgment among believers? Is there a Bible verse supporting your thought?
And ye are puffed up, and did not rather mourn, that he that had done this deed might be taken away from among you. For I verily, being absent in body but present in spirit, have already as though I were present judged him that hath so wrought this thing, in the name of our Lord Jesus, ye being gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, to deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. For what have I to do with judging them that are without? Do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Put away the wicked man from among yourselves. (1 Corinthians 5:2-5, 12, 13 ASV)
But when Cephas came to Antioch, I resisted him to the face, because he stood condemned. (Galatians 2:11 ASV)
Don't get me wrong. I've been blessed by much of what I've heard Zac preach. Those are just my thought on his message.
By the way, are you from India? My family and I lived there for while.
Hey I have nothing against you. The question you posted is also in my heart. I am from India but living in US. I will get a chance next month to meet Zac personally. I will ask him this question. But based on 1 Corth 5, I still believe it is not the members responsibility to Judge one another. Paul is elder or overseer of the Church in Corinth, so he can look into the heart of person and then decide an action.
"Paul is elder or overseer of the Church in Corinth, so he can look into the heart of person and then decide an action."
You don't need to "look into the heart of a fornicator". If a professing believer is living in open fornication, that is what's in their heart.
But the things which proceed out of the mouth come forth out of the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart come forth evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, railings: these are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not the man. (Matthew 15:18-20 ASV)
When one reads the account of the adulteress brought to Jesus, the scripture tells us she was caught in the very act. The OT law stipulated that BOTH are to be stoned. The Pharisees brought to Jesus only 1/2 of the problem - where was the other partner? The Pharisees wanted to stone the woman but let the man go free!
Now go figure! This is what was so terribly wrong with the Pharisees accusation: they a were not even 'Biblical' in their accusation.
The Pharisees consistently modified the law as given to Moses and imposed it upon the people. What the people had to live with was a far cry from what God commanded them in the law and what the Prophets taught.
To suggest the Pharisees were legalistic seems to be a stretch: they were applying the law illegally. The law said both man AND woman were to be stoned. The Pharisees wanted to stone only the woman and let the man go scot-free. We do not know what Jesus wrote on the ground but I do imagine...
I discovered this link when doing a search for “legalism” on the SI site. (And what a lot of hits there were!!!!!) Here Poonen is not confronting legalism per se, just one characteristic symptom of it: trying to deal with a speck when you have a log in your eye. He does a good job on that!
Only I don’t think the woman’s accusers were interested in speck-removing. They had zero interest in seeing this woman set free and restored into healthy moral relationships. It is a classic Tar-and-Feathering scenario – with a motive to trap Jesus. And isn’t it the same trap which legalism sets up for us when we are dealing with sinners: You’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t. Legalists lack the ability to integrate mercy and judgment.
Jesus could see that blindspot. He was careful not to absolve her from the law. He didn’t forbid stoning her. He simply left it up to them to decide who’d be first: The one without sin. Clever! And since none of them accused her, Jesus did neither. Instead, he gave her a fresh start: a clean slate to live a new life. Mercy triumphed over judgment.
Poonen has quite the way of saying: Mind your own business! I just wish he had brought the Holy Spirit into his message. Instead of telling people to judge themselves over and over again, I think he should have invited them to surrender themselves to the Lord, and ask God to do that heart searching. Otherwise you run the risk of obsessive navel-gazing. And you’ll never see your own blind spots. (So you just stay legalistic) David did it the right way. He prayed, “Search me O God…”
Do you think there is a place for Judgment among believers? Is there a Bible verse supporting your thought?
Judge carefully",
"Do not judge",
"Judge between your servants",
"Stop passing judgment on one another",
"Judge for yourself",
"make a right judgment"…
Your question is addressed here: “Judging”
http://www.quiteexcellent.com/thewayback.net/articles/JUDGING/1developing.htm
Diane
"The Pharisees brought to Jesus only 1/2 of the problem - where was the other partner?"
They probably had paid the fellow who bought her services so that they can have something to accuse Jesus with. I can see them scheming, planning and paying people off for the transgression. And I think that is why Jesus didn't say anything to them at the first because He knew what they had done.
Wouldn't be the first or last time they paid someone off to protect their influence over the people. They probably were not too happy with John the Baptist either. He called them a "brood of vipers". I wonder how well the Pharisees knew Herod?
Judge carefully",
"Do not judge",
"Judge between your servants",
"Stop passing judgment on one another",
"Judge for yourself",
"make a right judgment"…Your question is addressed here: “Judging”
http://www.quiteexcellent.com/thewayback.net/articles/JUDGING/1developing.htm
Thanks for the link, I will take a look into it.
My question is not about judging ourself. I believe we need to judge ourself because the bible says so. Also we need to examine those who teaches us to make sure they are from God. But my question is on believers in Church judging one another. I am not sure that is healthy.
This discussion is locked.