What I have against The Baptist Doctrine: From 1 Baptist 2 Another

Last week my Brother in Law was remarried in a cave and they had very strange wedding vows. Instead of acknowledging God, they acknowledge "Mother Nature!"

My wife noticed this and said what about God?

My brother in law got a little nervous... "well we wanted to make the vows so they wouldn't offend anyone".

My brother in law was raised in the southern baptist church. Gave his life to Christ and almost became a Baptist minister, until he found collage and became a lawyer instead. Yet he holds true to this one baptist doctrine...
Once saved, always saved!

If there is any thing that I am at war with it is this Doctrine that Baptist have in their faith & message. In the B.F&M, it states that if you hold different views keep them to yourself.

I do not hold to that doctrine. I believe that if you have been soundly saved then it is impossible for men or angels to make you fall from the faith. However, You can fall from the faith and your first love (Christ Jesus)by conforming to the world and living like devils.

God has called us to be in the world and not part of it.

Does this make me a bad Baptist?

Hello sonship, You may find this article helpful for your situation. It relates to marginal conversions in Africa, but I believe it has implications for conversions in the western church too:

http://www.wmausa.org/page.aspx?id=83837

Diane

sonsigns wrote:
If there is any thing that I am at war with it is this Doctrine that Baptist have in their faith & message.

When I used to go to the jail and ask if any of the women were saved, 99.9% ALWAYS raise their hand. The people who teach this obviously has never seen the other side of this ugly teaching. i.e. like trying to help someone who needs help but you can't get through to them because THEY'RE SAVED! (EDITED)

There is this one guy who goes around to all the schools here in our county and has a morning Bible program for the kids and his one main goal is to get the kids to say the 'sinners' prayer. I believe he thinks his job is done.

I asked him if he knew the names and number of any of the kids that got "saved" so he could check up on them and he just looked at me like I was crazy (edit: he did say one time that that was someone else's job). It might be different if every person who led someone to the Lord ACTUALLY discipled them for a year or more but no.

I still go to the jail but I don't ask them anymore, I just assume they are not saved or that they are backslid and need to what?? That's right.... repent!! LOL

God bless you,
Lisa

hi, there is no osas doctrine. this is what those who do not know what eternal security of the believer means. your security is in the hands of God and is very important. why do people argue that their God is not great enough to keep them . why do they argue that the covenant cutter, Jesus,is not enough as He forever makes intercession for us to His Father. what sin is greater then the shed blood of the Lamb?i have run into many people who have fallen into this trap and felt they had no more chance with God for they have fallen away.the problem is not eternal security; it is false security... if one truly gets saved and has a loving personal relationship with Jesus ,he is eternally secure.jimp

if one truly gets saved and has a loving personal relationship with Jesus ,he is eternally secure.jimp

If one truly get's saved... Who am I to say that someone is not saved? That is the work of the Holy Spirit only.

Let me see if I can say this more plainly.

I believe that man or angels or demons or satan himself can not make a believer fall from Gods Grace or Mercies.

However, I believe that the man or woman that professes to be saved... any man that claims to be in Christ, can himself pull away from God and there leave the Grace and mercies of God in Christ and become back sliden.

Therefore, if they stay in this back sliden state and die, do you believe that they will inherit eternal life?

Doesn't God call us to be Holy as he is Holy?

Can I honestly believe that if I decide to live like the world, giving no thought to God, that if I die in that state I will inherit the kingdom of God? Read Roman's chapter 6, particularly 12-23

This doctrine is mans license to sin, I do not think they will get away with it at the Judgement seat.

This is the doctrine that I am at war with...

thats why its called persavernce of the saints

becasue he who is born of god keeps himself
and the evil one does not touch him 1john5 ;18

a truly born againg christan ,does not fall away, into apostacy

he who is born of god does not sin for gods seed remain in him and he can not sin 1 john 3;9

who ever abide in christ does not sin
who ever sins has neither seen him or knowen him,,1 john 3;6

who ever falls into apostacy ,alife of sin and seems to have lost there salvation ,has neither seen him,, not even once ,,nor has he ever knowen him in the contex of a true relationship ,based on the regenration of the new birth

hi, this doctrine gives us the license to sin... someone loves me so much that even though i deserve a sentence to an eternity in hell and while i was a sinner died for me and forgave me gives me a license to love Him more. do you sin because your husband or wife trusts you and has demonstrated great love for you or do you respect him or her and love them .license to sin is sooo stupid when on the cross Jesus looked down the ages and saw me and loved me so that sin is forever conquered in my life for i trust in His covenant keeping power.if you would do a study on covenant you will better understand. mephibosheth hated david and feared him ,yet because of covenant david honored this man and gave him his inheritance and allowed him to eat at the kings table.jimp

Thanks for those scriptures And a hearty Amen.

I am not mad @anyone or even @ my denomination, I just really do not like "the once saved always saved" doctrine.
It seems many friends and family members use it as a trump card to do what they want and sin without repentance.

I do not believe that the Baptist threw this doctrine into their faith and message to be used in this manner. With that said it is a hard doctrine to understand and one that I can not find in the scriptures.

The LORD, the LORD God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in loving kindness and truth; who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no
means leave the guilty unpunished.

I don't believe when the Baptist faith & message was written that they included the "once saved, always saved," doctrine to mean what many friends and family believe that they can live like the devil and the world.

This I do not understand and can not find in the scriptures.
I live in Missouri, so Show Me...

Thanks for standing with me on this doctrine. I will pray for your jail ministry and that you will touch many lives for the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Keep up the good and faithful work.

Your Brother in Christ,
William

yea im with you brother ,,i realy hate the doctrine ,osas,,,,,,,,,,,and believe it or not from what i understand about brother jims back round ,he also does not believe in once saved always saved to sin ,,,,,being close to lenard ravenhill as he said he was ,,lenard believed that a christan can lose there salvation ,,which is obviously not the doctrine i believe in , but ithink most of us that are active in the form are againsts ,the once saved alawys saved to continue in sin doctrine

paul washer is famous for preaching againsts that doctrine when conbined with the sinners prayer , as people combine it nomaly,, it rips the power of regenration out of the gosple ,watering it down ,into a muddy cup of sweet herasy,, that goes down sweet,but has no vital spiritual vitamines or mineral ,needed for a healty rebirth ,and growth in christ

yep my father uses it as a licence to sin also

from what i understand ,which isnt much

the doctrine mutaited from the pesaverence of the saints ,which is not a excuse to sin but a licence to examine your self to see weather you realy are in the faith ,,
to the popular heracy of once saved allways saved

which is the ticket to contine in sin
sad

Thank you for standing with me on this subject. As I had stated before, I do not think that the early Baptist added this doctrine to their faith & message to be used in such a manner. At least I hope not.

I am researching where this doctrine may have come from... I have not had much luck. Any information will be greatly appreciated.

Your Brother and servant in Christ Jesus,
William

P.S. I have just started to listen to John Piper. As a matter of fact I am looking over his web site and his churches web site as well. I like what I am hearing from this dear Brother.

blunt but i would agree in christ jim

john piper is a verry humble saint , sermon index has many of his sermons

from what i under stand ,which isnt much

the reformed faith believed in the persarevence of the saint doctrine men like spurgen , calvin , john bunyan, piper ,washer ,edwards, whitfield ,,,,men like

reformed baptised like spurgen taught this

but im thinking hypacalvinists ,,were probaly believing in once saved allways saved verry early in the piece

,but how it moved in to the arminian baptise belife system is is beoned me ,im not sure it has

so hypa calvinism would be to blame as an influnce regarding todays vervion of once saved always saved ,in my limated opinion

Just finished reading the article "A Review of Christian Conversion In an African Context", I found the article some what intimidating, because I know nothing about the African religion or even about Christian beliefs in African tradition.

Yet I read on and found it intriguing in the different aspects of conversion for the African and how they mixed their Christian beliefs with their traditional superstitions.

I can throw a lot of judgement on this subject as stated in the article, however, the Holy Spirit is pulling me to my chamber to intercede for the brothers and sisters in Africa.

As in my case of the once saved always saved doctrine, some of this may play into this subject yet, I do not think so.

We will see what God will show me on the subject.

Thanks for the great article it has open my eye's to the culture of the African Christian.

Your brother in Christ Jesus,
William

hi,the bible teaches us clearly ...be sure your sins will find you out...it also teaches about walking in the Spiit and in the flesh.when Jesus conquered sin and death on the cross it allowed us to have eternal zoe life in the spirit.when we sin in the flesh we pay for these sins in the flesh.if you drink and live a sinful life you will have job problems, family and financial problems.if you overeat you will wind up with joint problems and heart trouble. i have seen people backslide for a few weeks and get fired ,loose their children, jailed ,become homeless and a few extras.but Jesus said ,niether do I condemn you ...go and sin no more.His blood either payed the price or it did not.if it was up to you to live a perfect life ,He did not need to die for you. if you are guilty of one sin then you are a sinner.be careful , His grace is sufficient for you.jimp

are you saying once saved allways saved ,weather you live a life stile of sin or not it makes ne difference

if that what you are saying ,i can say lenared raven hill would rebuke you for false teaching ,regardless of how long you were friends with him jim

jim i noticed you didnt use any scripture in its oridginal contex to valadate you word

jesus also said repent or perish
that is the contex of him saying go and sin no more

nether does he condem those who have true repentance

begins with a changed mind ,and leds to a changed life
and a hatred for sin ,,,,

his grace is not sufficient for those who will not repent and carry there own cross ,and denie them selfs and there carnal desires

but for those who do the will of my father which is in heaven ,not all who say lord lord will enter into the kindom of heaven

idont think any one in this thred is pushing the sinless perfection doctrine jim

just growing in holness ,with out which no one will see the lord

just the doctrine that a good tree will not produce bad fruit
and vica versea,

a bad tree cannot produce good fruit

if christs in us the hope of glory is a reality in us
if we are born again ,gods seed is in us and we will not produces a life slile of bad fruit

the apostal said he who sins is of the devil

if you are living like the devil it is becasue you are not of god

i dont know jim are you advocating a lifeslile of practicing sin with no repentence

if the son sets you free you will be free indeed

he died to set us free from the power of sin over our lives

if we live a life of slavery to sin it is becase we are dead in our sins ,,it doesnt matter if we profess him as lord ,it doesnt matter if we hav had spiritual experance and extacys ,,christs has hade us free from the law of sin and death ,and our life will bare the evedence of good fruit ,because god has transformd us into a good tree

and his seed remainth in us

hi,i do not worry about sin for it does not enter in my thought pattern. i am looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of my faith. during the cleansing period of preachers who fell;most were sin centered preachers who preached hard against those who sinned around them but lived a life riff with sin .a lot have repented and have admitted their error.Jesus said it when He said "depart from Me you workers of iniquity for I never knew you" Lens emphasis was on Jesus and walking in the Spirit and if you sin you have an advocate with the Father.keeping a personal love affair going with Jesus is my emphasis.....a man applied to be a river boat captain here in louisiana in the mississisppi river(these men take over ships that are to come into and up the river)he was asked if he knew where all the problems were in the river were and he answered with a resounding ,no. they said then why should we allow you a river pilot license. his answer was " caus i know where the channel is". my stand is that talking about sin has no power so my power is in Jesus who directs my steps as i follow Him.jimp preach Jesus...He has already won the victory over sin.

Jimp you are right to say Christ had victory over sin and true believers should believe this and rest in Him and His abudant grace, love and mercy. We are not neglect this knowledge when we do we have full confidence in Him. Having said this OSAS is a false doctrine that has many believers decieved into thinking they are in right standing with God and continue to willfully sin.

Jesus did indeed say narrow is the way that leads to eternal life and very few will find it. Grace is not a license to sin. Looking back to the OT only 8 were saved in the flood a very small number for all the earth.I am just giving an example of God's judgement (for the OT was written for our example) which many of us don't deem as important in our lives. We no longer have balance in our belief. When we tell a little lie here, or gossip a bit here,or are lusting after the opposite sex we deem these little sins and get comfortable because we did not act on them and then prayed Lord forgive me only to go and do the same again. My point is Jesus said if a man looks at a woman and lusts after her he has commited adultery in his heart, If you hate your brother you are a murderer. Note how higj the bar has been set for believers. Most significantly if you love Me you will obey my commandments

As we grow in grace and knowledge we will soon learn how much God hates sin it cost Him his beloved Son. It is this knowledge that creates a desire in true believers to abhorr sin and strive against it. Now the lukewarm believer will live after the flesh believing he is safe yet he is wretched naked and blind and of this one Jesus says repent ye therefore and buy from him eye salve that he may see orelse he will spew him out of his mouth and BLOT HIS NAME OUT OF THE BOOK OF LIFE

The bar is set so much higher for true believers. To whom much is given much more is required. We must strive against the fleshes tendecy to sin and by the spirit put to death the deeds of the body. We must strive against sin until death. Drawing our strength from above. Jesus would not have said go now and sin no more if He knew we could not do it hence He gave us the Holy Spirit to help our struggle.This is war the flesh lusts against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh. Walk in the spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. No adulterers, fornicators, sorcerers, drunkards, liars, idolaters etc will inherit the kingdom of heaven. We must live a life of repentance bearing fruit worthy of repentance for we shall all stand at judgement seat of Christ and give an account of our lives. He who is unjust, let him be unjust still, he who is filthy let him be filthy still, he who is righteous let him be righteous still, he who is holy let him be holy still........12 And behold I am coming quickly and my reward is with me to give EVERYONE according to his work Rev 22; 11-12