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Obama; son of Islam?....Raymond Ibrahim..[ well done ]

sermonindex Feb 29, 2012

Many in the media are indignant with Reverend Franklin Graham, head of the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association. Invited on "Morning Joe" last Tuesday to discuss Christian persecution, the hosts turned the focus to interrogating Graham on whether he thought President Barack Obama was Christian or not.

Though the Reverend concluded that Obama "has said he's a Christian, so I just have to assume that he is," he appeared skeptical, suggesting Obama's policies disagree with Christian principles, and thus earning the full ire of much of the fourth estate.

Intrinsically trivial on many levels, this incident nevertheless brings several important points to the fore.
First, Graham was absolutely right to say that, "under Islamic law, the Muslim world sees Barack Obama as a Muslim, as a son of Islam": according to Sharia, if one's father is Muslim, one automatically becomes Muslim.

In fact, the reason behind last week's church attack in Egypt, when thousands of Muslims tried to torch a church and kill its pastor, is that a Christian girl fled her father after he converted to Islam: she did not want to be Muslim, and was rumored to be hiding in the church.
(This would not be the first time in recent months that churches were attacked on similar rumors.)

Because of this automatic passage of Islam from father to son—with the death penalty for those seeking to apostatize, the condemned Iranian pastor being just the most visible example—and because Obama attended a madrassa (a Muslim religious school) during his youth in Indonesia, many Muslims are convinced that Obama is a "secret" Muslim.

In a Forbes article, "My Muslim President Obama: Why members of the faith see him as one of the flock," writer Asma Gull Hasan elaborates:

[S]ince Election Day, I have been part of more and more conversations with Muslims in which it was either offhandedly agreed that Obama is Muslim or enthusiastically blurted out. In commenting on our new president, "I have to support my fellow Muslim brother," would slip out of my mouth before I had a chance to think twice.

"Well, I know he's not really Muslim," I would quickly add. But if the person I was talking to was Muslim, they would say, "yes he is." …. Most of the Muslims I know (me included) can't seem to accept that Obama is not Muslim. Of the few Muslims I polled who said that Obama is not Muslim, even they conceded that he had ties to Islam….

The rationalistic, Western side of me knows that Obama has denied being Muslim, that his father was non-practicing, that he doesn't attend a mosque. Many Muslims simply say back, "my father's not a strict Muslim either, and I haven't been to a mosque in years." Obama even told The New York Times he could recite the adhan, the Islamic call to prayer, which the vast majority of Muslims, I would guess, do not know well enough to recite. [Read the entire article, which is more eye-opening than the author probably intended.]

Another reason why many Muslims believe Obama is Muslim (a reason Ms. Hasan's article understandably omits) is that, under the Islamic doctrine of taqiyya, Muslims are permitted—in certain contexts even encouraged—to deny being Muslim, if so doing secures them or Islam an advantage.

Accordingly, Islamic history is full of stories of Muslims denying and publicly cursing Islam, even pretending to be Christian, whenever it was strategic.
In other words, if an American president was a secret Muslim, and if he was lying about it, and even if he was secretly working to subvert the U.S. to Islam's advantage —not only would that be justified by Islamic doctrines of loyalty and deception, but it would have ample precedents, stretching back to the dawn of Islam.

Such as when Muhammad commanded a convert from an adversarial tribe to conceal his new Muslim identity and go back to his tribe—which he cajoled with a perfidious "You are my stock and my family, the dearest of men to me"—only to betray them to Islam's invading armies.


Graham further upset "progressive" sensitivities by saying "All I know is under Obama, President Obama, the Muslims of the world, he seems to be more concerned about them than the Christians that are being murdered in the Muslim countries," adding that "Islam has gotten a free pass under Obama."


Yet who can deny this? Whether by expunging any reference to Islam in U.S. security documents, or enabling Muslim persecution of Christians, or ordering NASA to make Muslims "feel good" about themselves, or bowing to the anti-Christian Saudi king—the President has made his partiality for Islam very clear: Islam is undoubtedly getting a "free pass" under Obama.


What Franklin Graham's critics fail to understand is that, when it comes to Obama's religious identity, the Reverend probably has Jesus' dictum in mind: "By their fruits shall ye know them"—that is, pro-Islamic actions speak louder than Christian words.

Raymond Ibrahim is a Shillman Fellow at the David Horowitz Freedom Center and an Associate Fellow at the Middle East Forum.

sermonindex Feb 29, 2012

This article is very penetrating and would certainly explain a lot if the Presidents actions. Even is not admitted publically, Mr. Obama's heart certainly leans toward Islam. Or so it would appear.

The disturbing thing is the American voter may have to choose between a Mormon or a Moslem for President. Both of which are undesirable. At the moment Jesus is looking better. I agree with the psalmist who said better to trust in the Lord than princes.

Blaine Scogin

sermonindex Feb 29, 2012

This article is very disturbing. I believe the christian right is far more dangerous than islam or any liberal could ever be. A white republican claiming to be a christian, with no fruit to suport it, gets full allegiance from americas sick christendom. Not the black democrat though, we have more "discernment" than to fall for that.

Here is something I wrote a while back.

My American evangelical friends. Have you prayed for president Obama at all? You know, like you use to pray for president Bush on Wednesday nights at steeple house? Have you only grumbled about him instead, maybe even suggested that he is the antichrist, yet never prayed for him. For his marriage, for his family, for his leadership, that he would come to a saving knowledge of faith in Christ Jesus? Such actions seem to be more fitting for a pharisee then a christian.

I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. ~1 Timothy 2:1-6

sermonindex Feb 29, 2012

"What Franklin Graham's critics fail to understand is that, when it comes to Obama's religious identity, the Reverend probably has Jesus' dictum in mind: "By their fruits shall ye know them"—that is, pro-Islamic actions speak louder than Christian words."

For sure - we all know that Jesus was a greedy, conservative, white middle class republican that started wars for oil and blew up abortion clinics while pursuing the american dream. I learned much 'discernment' in my evangelical church and know the fruit that Jesus taught about... and black democrat aint it. Can I get an amen?

What we need is a good moral, white, bible believing roman catholic in office to bring this country back to 'god'.

-Jim

sermonindex Feb 29, 2012

Brother I agree with the thrust of your article. I would suggest you refraim from the racial labels. But to answer your question, I do pray for President Obama's salvation. As a matter of fact President Obama stands a greater chance of coming to faith in Christ than Rick Santoriium or Mitt Romney. Both of the republican front runners come out of religious systems that are satanic inspired and demonically controlled. One is a hard core Catholic. The other a hard core Mormon. Both of these are hard to reach with the gospel.

Even if President Obama is a closet Moslem, he may be more open to the gospel than Santoriom.or Romney. So yes, let us pray for the President's salvation.

Blaine Scogin

sermonindex Feb 29, 2012

Brother please clarify your post. Are you being sourcastic or serious? I will say upfront that racism is a sin. Like I asked, are you being cynical or serious?

Blaine Scogin.

L
Lysa Feb 29, 2012

martyr wrote:
Brother please clarify your post. Are you being sourcastic or serious? I will say upfront that racism is a sin. Like I asked, are you being cynical or serious?

Brother,

He's being sarcastic (as only a democrat can be!!) LOLOL

God bless,
Lisa

sermonindex Feb 29, 2012

You mean there are such in the forum.......chuckle.......

sermonindex Feb 29, 2012

I am not a democrat or republican. I long to see Gods people freed from these world systems. To answer blaine, I am serious and sarcastic. Jesus saved me from evangelical christianity and the so called christian right. Before that I believed all of those subtle lies. I live work and minister in one of the most racially divided areas of the country. There is rampant racism in the christian right. There is also rampant idolatry in evangelicalism that thinks Jesus is a republican. That is why so many will vote for a white republican but not a black democrat.. Even if neither bares fruit as a true believer we will still accept the one. To not mention the race issue would be to let my conscience down. Blaine, you know the answer is in prayer and not in men. May Jesus bless you as you pray for our president. Jim

sermonindex Feb 29, 2012

Brother your answer was very clear and concise. I do agree and stand with you. Prayer to Jesus is our only answer. Lord bless you much brother

Blaine.

I
iceman9 Feb 29, 2012

jimdied2sin - Are you serious?

The Scriptures say that "you will know them by their fruit." Matthew 7:16

The fruit of your writing shows you clearly are a super left leaning liberal. You are throwing race around in your comments like a mad man.

It appears you have a major issue with race. Repent!

I don't care what color a candidate is I look at the issues, you apparently do not. I will vote for the candidate that best represents the foundation of my faith from the Scriptures.

You should try that too.

Your type of liberalism is much more dangerous to our country that any Christian has ever been jim.

sermonindex Feb 29, 2012

"The fruit of your writing shows you clearly are a super left leaning liberal."

You are judging from the flesh. I am not a liberal or conservative.

"You are throwing race around in your comments like a mad man."

Because I believe there is a racial issue involved in this topic.

"It appears you have a major issue with race. Repent!"

Wow - a false call to repentance, seriously iceman. Shall I repent of what the Lord has shown me? I have no issue with race, I fellowship with romanian brethren, caucasian brethren, african american brethren. Maybe I am striking at a deep issue in your heart that you have with race?

"Your type of liberalism is much more dangerous to our country that any Christian has ever been jim."

This is such a lie. Here are some previous thoughts I have shared that show that. Do you serve the kingdom of america or the kingdom of God, the christian right or the church of the first born whos names are written in heaven? I am sorry for being unclear and contributing to whatever it is that drove you to write such misguided lies.

http://fleebabylon.wordpress.com/2010/09/25/liberal-and-conservative/

http://fleebabylon.wordpress.com/2010/08/19/a-false-reformation-called-emergent/

in Christ -Jim

sermonindex Feb 29, 2012

"Brother,

He's being sarcastic (as only a democrat can be!!) LOLOL

God bless,
Lisa "

Sister-

Do you see how we are programmed to pick things the Lord never intended for us. Since I'm not a republican, I must be a democrat? Since I'm not an armenian I must be a calvinist? The world gives us these things to choose from - even its religion.. baptist, nazarine, methodist, etc. No thanks - none of the above! Jesus is my king and His is my kingdom. I think that is a good mind to have brethren, that which was given from heaven and not false choices given from men.

God bless you sister - Jim

L
Lysa Feb 29, 2012

jimdied2sin wrote:
Do you see how we are programmed to pick things the Lord never intended for us. Since I'm not a republican, I must be a democrat? Since I'm not an armenian I must be a calvinist? The world gives us these things to choose from - even its religion.. baptist, nazarine, methodist, etc. No thanks - none of the above! Jesus is my king and His is my kingdom. I think that is a good mind to have brethren, that which was given from heaven and not false choices given from men.

God bless you sister - Jim


I am sorry that I offended you; my heart was not to make fun of your political standing. I should have stopped with the explanation, “He’s being sarcastic,” and left it at that. Because if only you knew how many times I’ve been called a “liberal Christian” here in East TN because I don’t agree that often with the “religious right” of the Republican Party. I lean heavily toward the Libertarian Party. Anyway, please forgive me.

God bless you,
Lisa

sermonindex Feb 29, 2012

"I am sorry that I offended you; my heart was not to make fun of your political standing"

You didnt offend me at all dear sister! Plus, I can see how what I wrote could be misread. This is actually the first time I have been suspected of being a liberal! Our unity is in Christ and His gospel, not in a political philosophy. God bless you Lysa.

Jim

sermonindex Feb 29, 2012

I went to the David Horowitz Freedom Center site and what I saw is the same spirit that fueled the crusades.

-Jim

sermonindex Feb 29, 2012

I see where Jim is coming from and agree with him. We are called to be citizens of the heavenly kingdom and not of a political territory. Our respidibility is to obey the governing authorities provided that such laws fo not conflict with the gospel.

The mandate for the believer is to preach the gospel not elect a republican or tea party or democratic president. Our destination is a heavenly city. We do not worship the U S Constitution or the Declaration of Independence. We worship Jesus. We do not pledge allegiance to a piece of cloth. We pledge our allegiance to Jesus. To pledge allegaiance to the flag is idolitry. To worship the United States of America is idolitry.

Their is a new idolitry emerging among evangelicals. It is worship of America, worship of the flag, worship of the Constitution, worship of Israel, and so on. Our loyalty is not to Caesar but to Christ himself. Yet a number of Christians are forgetting this.

I stand with the Annabaptidt who saw their loyalty to Christ and not to the state. They would obey the laws of the state but would not be involved with the activities of the state. The early Christians would obey Caesar but not worship him.

It would have been unthinkable to see the Roman eagle which represented the power of Caesar standing in a first century church. Yet we have the American flag in front of most American protestant churches. Again a new heresy is emerging. The worship of America.

Just as the Chineese have the Three Self Patriotic Movement Church with government backing, we have the 501c3 government backed church. For the mostt part this is the church that worships America.

Again our citizenship is above in. the kingdom of heaven. We have another King, one called Jesus. Our mandate is to preach his gospel.

Blaine Scogin

S
savedtoserve Mar 1, 2012

I stand with the Anabaptists who saw their loyalty to Christ and not to the state. They would obey the laws of the state but would not be involved with the activities of the state. The early Christians would obey Caesar but not worship him.

It would have been unthinkable to see the Roman eagle which represented the power of Caesar standing in a first century church. Yet we have the American flag in front of most American protestant churches. Again a new heresy is emerging. The worship of America.

Just as the Chineese have the Three Self Patriotic Movement Church with government backing, we have the 501c3 government backed church. For the most part this is the church that worships America.

Again our citizenship is above in. the kingdom of heaven. We have another King, one called Jesus. Our mandate is to preach his gospel.

Amen, martyr! Praise the Lord.

savedtoserve

C
ccchhhrrriiisss Mar 1, 2012

Hi Brother Jim,

I understand where you are coming from in terms of your perspective -- even if I might disagree with the full extent of it. If anything, this is where I have to disagree with your claim that you are "impartial" in all of this:


"This article is very disturbing. I believe THE CHRISTIAN RIGHT IS FAR MORE DANGEROUS than islam or any liberal could ever be. A white republican claiming to be a christian, with no fruit to suport it, gets full allegiance from americas sick christendom. Not the black democrat though, we have more "discernment" than to fall for that."

If there was impartiality here, you would have lumped them all -- Democrats or Republican elected representatives, Muslims, Mormons and Catholics -- into one single "dangerous" group. However, you insisted that the "Christian right" (which is a broadly painted term -- that you would be quickly lumped together with by most of the people that I live around given your faith and views on matters like abortion, homosexuality, etc...) is "FAR MORE DANGEROUS THAN ISLAM OR ANY LIBERAL COULD EVER BE."

I think that your sense of urgency may be resultant of the notion that you see many Christians meander into politics or a particular legislative persuasion over another (whether candidate or party). Now, I suppose that there are some individuals who may get "full allegiance" because they are a "white Republican" with certain individuals. However, that is far from the "rule" or even the "norm."

There are many believers who do vote...with a prayerful, clear conscience...who aren't "bowing their knees" or "declaring allegiance" to a candidate, party, or system of man. They are simply voicing an opinion -- through a vote -- about which current candidate (or even party platform) is best at this particular time.

Over time, I have noticed that those who are most concerned about participation in voting, politics, etc... are most vocal when it comes to those who trend toward the political "right." Some of the individuals who loudly opposed President Bush or even openly questioned his eternal status were a little less vocal (or even silent) during the last election.

Again, this could be because they feel that there is greater danger in supporting "angels of light" over the more obvious immorality of a party that supports abortion, homosexual activism, or other causes that molest the consciences (in regard to issues of "justice," "righteousness" vs. "unrighteousness") of certain believers.

Still, I agree with your notion that we must pray for elected leaders. Like many, I disagree with certain policies of President Obama. To a lesser extent, I disagreed with certain policies of President Bush. However, my wife and I have remembered BOTH of these men in our prayers. We try to make no public assumptions about their respective eternal conditions -- regardless of what might be "apparent" reasons to do so. In fact, I pray that the Lord would do in these men what I so desperately want the Lord to do in my own life.

However, I do fear that we meander beyond mere politics by linking it to some sort of "evil" simply because a believer will (gasp) feel a need to voice support for one man over another in an election.

Moreover, I do think that we must be careful about this election season. This forum is not about politics...even if it is so easy to link such matters into what we feel to be the current condition of the Church or as a cause behind why Christ-centered revival is sorely lacking in the Church. There are many reasons why the Church is asleep (or worse), but even if you believe that ANY participation in the process is wrong, it is merely a "symptom" of that slumbered or deathly condition and not an actual "cause."

May the Lord turn our eyes upon Jesus. May we follow Him wholeheartedly...and without being led astray by the concerns of this world as we follow Him with a clear conscience.

sermonindex Mar 1, 2012

Chris-

God bless you brother, sorry if I came off as condemning those who vote. That is not my heart. I am not strongly political or anti-political. My comments were based on the fact that there is a lot of thinly disguised hatred towards our current (seemingly) lost president while previous (seemingly) lost republican presidents get a free pass. A lot of rhetoric about Obama, but little love and prayer for him.

You said: "If anything, this is where I have to disagree with your claim that you are "impartial" in all of this"

Luke 12:47 And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

Those who profess to be Gods party while exploiting wage earners, teaching them to hate others, and sending Gods children to kill arabs overseas to secure american interests will have the greater damnation. Muslims and the typical liberal are just lost people following the agenda that lost people follow. I am not sticking up for them at all, but according to scripture it appears that they will be beaten only with a few stripes while the christian right will be beaten with many.

Also, because I have been taken captive by the christian right in the past and have repented of it I am more outspoken about that. I have never been a muslim or a liberal though. Sort of like how others on SI who came out of bad legalistic background are the most outspoken against legalism. Even if going a little overboard sometime.


You said: "I think that your sense of urgency may be resultant of the notion that you see many Christians meander into politics or a particular legislative persuasion over another"

Brother, that is not it. It is something much bigger. Pledging allegiance to king ceaser over king Jesus. Striking hands of unity with the baals (glen beck, bill o'rielly, etc) to keep america a "christian" nation. I have nothing against a believer voting republican or democrat if they think they must choose the lesser of two evils. Though I don't join in the voting I do not condemn anyone who does. I am talking about something much bigger that substitutes the gospel of america for the gospel of the kingdom.

You said: "There are many believers who do vote...with a prayerful, clear conscience...who aren't "bowing their knees" or "declaring allegiance" to a candidate, party, or system of man."

I know - sorry if I made it sound that I felt otherwise!

You said: "Over time, I have noticed that those who are most concerned about participation in voting, politics, etc... are most vocal when it comes to those who trend toward the political "right." Some of the individuals who loudly opposed President Bush or even openly questioned his eternal status were a little less vocal (or even silent) during the last election. "

Then we must travel completely different circles. Most church people I know are taken captive by the christian right.

You said: "Still, I agree with your notion that we must pray for elected leaders. Like many, I disagree with certain policies of President Obama. To a lesser extent, I disagreed with certain policies of President Bush. However, my wife and I have remembered BOTH of these men in our prayers... May the Lord turn our eyes upon Jesus. May we follow Him wholeheartedly...and without being led astray by the concerns of this world as we follow Him with a clear conscience."

Amen brother - God bless you and your wife in Christ Jesus.

Jim

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