Hey,
So can anybody answer the above question? My friend believe that it is only a recent phenomena that is unbiblical and says that tongues ceased after the early church..
However I speak in tongues and he believers that people who speak in tongues are either deceived or of the devil.
If you could help me and link me to books/ websites that would be MOST helpful!
In Christ
Evangel
I don't have the resources at my fingertips but a good friend shared with me that several of the early Presbyterian had the gift despite it scorned at the time. I'll have to ask him for some links.
http://www.cfcindia.com/web/mainpages/articles.php?display=article07
I hope this will help :)
hi, luther wrote a great hymn:a mighty fortrace is our God. in the 4th stanza he wrote that the Spirit and the gifts are ours.jimp
It sounds like your friends mind is made up.
Here is a link...
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Glossolalia
When he has a need someday, offer to pray for him and allow him to experience your gift, the Lord might work mightily through that.
God bless,
Lisa
Let's not get carried away... praying for someone's needs in tongues is no more powerful than not. God does not honor prayers offered in tongues anymore than He does the simple plea of a child or an adult who approaches Him as a little child.
Which one of us has had the impact of someone like Billy Graham, or Charles Spurgeon, or Billy Sunday, or etc etc? Not even close. And imagine... none of them spoke or prayed in tongues.
Some people are given the gift of tongues, and some are not. Scripture is VERY plain about that. Let's not be ignorant.
1 Corinthians 12:27-31 "Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all possess gifts of healing? DO ALL SPEAK WITH TONGUES? DO ALL INTERPRET? But earnestly desire the higher gifts."
Two things here...
1) Paul is asking a question that has an obvious answer in order to make a point... and the obvious answer to all of his questions is: "NO"...
2) Paul conlcudes this line of questions with "earnestly desire the higher gifts". TONGUES is the LOWEST gift, and Paul goes on elsewhere to proove that point.
If you back up to verse 10 Paul even says: "to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, TO ANOTHER VARIOUS KINDS OF TONGUES, to another the interpretation of tongues."
So this gift, regardless of what some churches teach (in error) is NOT for every believer. God NEVER intended it for every believer, nor does He GIVE it to every believer. And having that gift does not make a believer special. In fact, that gift all too often gets ruined by that believers inability to control his or her own pride. And this is the whole reason why Paul wrote this portion of scripture. To deal with believers pride. It's not really even about tongues or gifts, it's dealing with sinful pride and believers who think they are something special.
And then Paul nails it down hard in verse 11 when he says: "All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as HE (the Holy Spirit/GOD) WILLS."
It's all according to HIS WILL, not ours. Pray till you're blue in the face, but if God has something else in mind for you OTHER than giving you the gift of tongues... thats HIS decision and He will not give it to you.
So if He has given you the gift of hospitality and not tongues... rejoice. Dont let those who have the gift of tongues lie to you and tell you it's for every believer and that it is THE sign that you're truly born again or baptized in the Spirit. Thats not true.
To say that is to say that Billy Graham is not born again or baptised in the Spirit. Or Spurgeon... or Billy Sunday... etc etc.
And then there are those who "speak in tongues" that really are not, and they are deceived and/or abusing "tongues". Personally I believe that would apply to the majority of those who claim to speak in tongues. I believe just like with people who are actually saved, there are few who actually have the gift of tongues.
Narrow is the gate and FEW are those who find it.
I do not go around judging who is really speaking in tongues and who is not. If you claim to have the gift great! I hope you do. Now be quiet about it and use it according to HIS WILL... use it in your prayer closet. Be humble about it. LOVE is the greatest gift, practice that one in public.
Krispy
By the way, some may read what I wrote and take that to mean I am saying people here are "lying". Thats not what I mean. I am, however, calling it "error" and "unbiblical" to assert that tongues is the evidence that someone is born again or baptised in the Spirit.
If someone claims that I do not think they are purposely lying, I know many sincerely believe that. But the Bible makes it clear that that is sincerely wrong.
So... it's not my intention to call into question anyone's character. I'm just trying to point out truth.
Krispy
Because clearly u have cornered the market on truth. It's amazing to see how u discourage people when they are looking for truth. Sometimes your opnions about things should remain to yourself. Spirit calls out to spirit not flesh. Brother I know u mean well but sometimes we should just be silent. And Krispy I know u love the Lord and His Word but honestly no man can have an answer for every scripture.
For someone who rejects the "speaking in tongues" you seem to know a lot about the subject.Let's not get carried away... praying for someone's needs in tongues is no more powerful than not. God does not honor prayers offered in tongues anymore than He does the simple plea of a child or an adult who approaches Him as a little child.
Since you don't believe that this gift (tongues of Angels) exist today and believe that those who speak in tongues today are deceived, and frankly you don't know what your talking about when you say that God does not honour prayers offered in tongues.
1 Corinthians 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all possess gifts of healing? DO ALL SPEAK WITH TONGUES? DO ALL INTERPRET? But earnestly desire the higher gifts."
The obvious answer is not your "NO". The answer is "NOT EVERYONE".
When you say that the gift is the lowest, your putting also everything else on that list. Apostles, Prophets, Teachers, Miracle Workers, Gifts of healing.
Make sure you include all the gifts in that list because that is what your doing. If you remove one you remove them all. What about the gift of the Holy Spirit, are we to say we don't need that one either? I know your answer is no, but still, that is what your doing. What you don't understand you should leave alone lest you find yourself fighting against God.So this gift, regardless of what some churches teach (in error) is NOT for every believer.
Smith Wigglesworth believed like you. Against the gift, but eventually fell into "error" as you put it.
Too Late!I do not go around judging who is really speaking in tongues and who is not.
Your instructions are, to be quiet about it, use it according to His will and use it in your prayer closet.If you claim to have the gift great! I hope you do. Now be quiet about it and use it according to HIS WILL... use it in your prayer closet.
Your encouragement is very weak brother, "I hope you do" is so so lame coming from you. It's like the baptist who believes that tongues should be in order in Church but don't allow it to manifest. Good one man!
"Now be quiet about it". Ah yes, you did say love is the greatest of the gifts. And yet, "Faith worketh by love".
Faith is not how the world defines it, a tenet of beliefs. The faith of the bible operates in the realm of love and is an action word. Jesus would say often, "Where is your faith". Basically saying, "why is it not in operation, do you not love me?".
When God moves on an individual to speak in tongues in a service because He wishes to encourage the body through this gift, it takes love from the individual who loves God to act in faith to obey Him.
Even though this is the least of the gifts, God has highly esteemed it because it's one of those gifts that men of reason can't get their minds around.
The natural thinking mind is enmity against God, it's not subject to laws of God neither indeed can be.
"Be humble about it. LOVE is the greatest gift, practice that one in public."
The act of speaking in tongues in a church or home or where ever it might be, is a humbling experience. And love is the greatest of the gifts. Practising love in public is doing the will of God which includes all the gifts, even the least of them for they all come from God and because something is least should we despise one of Gods attributes because we think it's lesser?
Jesus was made a little lower than the angels, should we think less of Him because He was lowered to our pitiful state? Of course not.
We'll let others decide, especially those that are in the same 'error' as I.
God Bless
Because clearly u have cornered the market on truth. It's amazing to see how u discourage people when they are looking for truth. Sometimes your opnions about things should remain to yourself. Spirit calls out to spirit not flesh. Brother I know u mean well but sometimes we should just be silent. And Krispy I know u love the Lord and His Word but honestly no man can have an answer for every scripture.
What I wrote was based on scripture, friend. Scripture is plain and so there you have it.
And no, when I see something being said that is not true I wont be silent. Thats about the worst piece of advice I seen on this site yet.
Krispy
The Evidence and Results of the Baptism With the Holy Spirit
An experience so great and so important as the baptism with the Holy Spirit undoubtedly will be accompanied by unmistakable evidences, so that the recipient will have no doubts whatsoever that he has indeed received the promise of the Father. Some of the evidence is manifested immediately, while others continue on a permanent basis as one walks in the fullness of the Spirit.
1.\tImmediate evidences.
a)\tSpeaking with other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance (Acts 2:4; 10:44-46; 19:6). The question of the initial evidence of the reception of the gift of the Holy Spirit is one of paramount importance to all who hunger to be filled with the Spirit. It is logical that the supernatural experience of the baptism with the Holy Spirit would be accompanied by some definite and unmistakable sign by which the seeker would be assured that he had received it. There are many operations of the Spirit, but only one baptism with the Spirit. If there were no particular supernatural evidence of the baptism with the Spirit by which it could be distinguished from all other operations of the Spirit, how could anyone be assured of the experience? We believe that the initial evidence of the baptism with the Holy Spirit is that of speaking with other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance. The evidence of the Spirit's fullness on the Day of Pentecost was that of speaking with other tongues by the prompting of the Holy Spirit: "And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance" (Acts 2:4). The manifestation of the Spirit on the Day of Pentecost was the original outpouring of the empowerment of the Church. It was the pattern for the Pentecostal experience. What the disciples did when they were first filled, we reasonably expect all who are filled in the same sense to do. Inasmuch as the purpose of the anointing was to give power to witness, it is not surprising that the sign of the experience was manifested in their utterance.
In addition to the initial outpouring of the Spirit as recorded in Acts 2:4, we have the account of the reception of the Spirit by the believers in the house of Cornelius, given in Acts 10:44-46:
While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them that heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.
It is interesting and important to note how the Jews who came with Peter knew that these Gentiles had received the Holy Ghost experience that the disciples received on the Day of Pentecost. The Scripture says that they knew because "they heard them speak with tongues." This verse reads literally, "For they, hearing them continuing to speak with tongues." Their speaking in tongues was no brief confusion of syllables, but a full and flowing use of a language, which brought amazement to the hearers. Now, if those present were convinced that the Gentiles had an equivalent Holy Ghost experience to that enjoyed by the Jews on the grounds of their speaking with tongues, then tongues must be the unmistakable sign or initial evidence of the Pentecostal experience. One can know today that his baptism is a genuine Pentecostal experience, equivalent to that of the disciples, when he experiences speaking with other tongues by the power of the Spirit. One does not seek the tongues, but the Spirit Himself. However, he does seek such a sign as will make him sure that he has been filled in biblical fashion.
A third such account of believers receiving the fullness of the Spirit where it is specifically mentioned that they spoke with tongues is recorded in Acts 19:6: "And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied." This was in the city of Ephesus. The theory that some have advanced is that the Spirit's anointing with the evidence of speaking with other tongues was only given when a new racial group accepted the gospel, such as the Jews at Pentecost, the Samaritans in Philip's revival, and the Gentiles in the house of Cornelius. But this theory breaks down here in Acts 19:6, where no new ethnic group can be distinguished. The same could be said of the Corinthians, who certainly spoke with tongues.
Some oppose tongues as the exclusive initial evidence of this baptism on the grounds that tongues are not always mentioned in the Bible in connection with the baptism with the Holy Spirit. It is true that three accounts say nothing of tongues, but the omission is due to the brevity of those accounts. In the record of the outpouring on the Samaritans (Acts 8:14-19) no mention is made of an accompanying sign, but the fact that Simon was willing to pay money for the power to impart the gift of the Spirit shows that some audible or visible sign made the gift spectacular. It is logical to assume that he heard them speak with tongues.
In Acts 4:31 there is no mention of tongues: "And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness." But this could well have been a refilling of those who were initially baptized on the Day of Pentecost.
In Acts 9:17 we do not read that Paul spoke with tongues when he received the Spirit. Nonetheless, that he did is quite certain from his testimony: "I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all" (1 Cor. 14:18).
In this connection, two thoughts should be noted. First, the first and last biblical accounts of the reception of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:4; 19:6) mention that the recipients spoke with tongues. Secondly, in every account of outpourings of the Holy Spirit where any sign is mentioned, tongues is signified. Where no signs at all are spoken of, there is strong evidence that the recipients did so speak.
The Pentecostal Fellowship of North America is an association of twenty-two of the largest Pentecostal denominations in North America. The statement of faith to which all member groups must agree has as its sixth point: "We believe that the full gospel includes holiness of heart and life, healing for the body and the baptism in the Holy Spirit, with the initial evidence of speaking in other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance."
There are some who teach that the initial evidence of tongues is not always necessary to assure that one has received the fullness of the Spirit, but that any of the other gifts of the Spirit could be the evidence of the Pentecostal experience. These sometimes mention Acts 19:6, where we read, "They spake with tongues, and prophesied."
It is never claimed that all that one will do when filled with the Spirit is to speak with tongues. Other gifts may well be manifested. All that is claimed here is that the newly baptized believers at Ephesus did speak with tongues, as well as prophecy. Why is it claimed that speaking with tongues is the sign of the filling more than any other gift of the Spirit? Because all of the gifts of the Spirit were more or less manifested in Old Testament times, with the lone exception of speaking with other tongues and its accompanying gift of interpretation of tongues.
•\tThe word of wisdom—Joshua (Dt. 34:9) and Solomon (1 Ki. 3:9-12)
•\tThe word of knowledge—Bezaleel (Ex. 31:3)
•\tFaith—Abraham (Gen. 15:6)
•\tGifts of healing—Elijah (1 Ki. 17:17-23) and Elisha (2 Ki. 4:18-37)
•\tWorking of miracles—Elijah (2 Ki. 1:10), Elisha (2 Ki. 6:4-7), and Moses (Ex. 7:10, 20)
•\tProphecy—Isaiah, David (2 Sam. 23:2), and Balaam (Num. 24:2)
•\tDiscerning of spirits—Ahijah (1 Ki. 14:1-6) and Moses (Ex. 32:17-19)
God was doing a new thing at Pentecost—something never experienced before—and the sign accompanying it was something never witnessed previously. Thus, it was a most significant sign.
b) Important points to note:
(1) Speaking in tongues is not the baptism with the Holy Spirit. It is the initial evidence, but not the only one.
(2) Do not seek to speak with tongues as though it were the baptism with the Holy Spirit—seek more of God and yield to Him. He will take care of the rest.
(3) It may well be true that some have apparently spoken in tongues who have not received the baptism with the Holy Spirit—the word apparently is used because it is believed that many of these are not real languages at all. The devil has a counterfeit for this gift, as he does for all others, but the earnest seeker for more of God need have no fear whatever that he is going to receive anything but God's best (Lk. 11:11-13).
c) Other immediate evidences of a new experience of the anointing of the Spirit in the life will include praise to God (Acts 2:11; 2:47; 10:46), an overflowing joy (Acts 2:46), and a deep burden and desire to preach or testify about Jesus (Acts 1:8; 2:14-18; 19:6).
2. Permanent evidences.
a) Jesus Christ glorified and revealed as never before (Jn. 14:21-23; 15:26; 16:13-15). The Holy Spirit centers all things in Christ. A new love is born for Him that will increase as one follows on in the Spirit-filled life. The Holy Spirit imparts the ability to comprehend the greatness of the Savior—His person and provisions (Eph. 1:17-23). It is recognized that many of these Scriptures are realized through the ministry of the Holy Spirit as the Comforter who indwells all believers, but experience demonstrates that all ministries of the Holy Spirit are enhanced as a result of the Pentecostal baptism with the Spirit.
b) A deeper passion for souls. One cannot read the history of the early Church immediately after Pentecost without realizing how there was a burning desire to proclaim the way of salvation (Acts 2:14-41; 4:19-20; 5:29-33; 6:8-10; 11:22-24; 26:28-29).
c) A greater power to witness (Acts 1:8; 2:41; 4:31-33; Jn. 15:26-27; 1 Cor. 2:4-5).
d) A new power in, and spirit of, prayer (Acts 3:1, 4:23-31; 6:4; 10:9; Rom. 8:26; Jude 20; Eph. 6:18; 1 Cor. 14:14-17).
e) A deeper love for, and richer insight into, the Word of God (Jn. 16:13).
f) The manifestations of the gifts of the Spirit (1 Cor. 12:4-11).
Foundations of Pentecostal Theology.
Approved...
For someone who rejects the "speaking in tongues" you seem to know a lot about the subject.
Really? You know this? Did you even read what I wrote?
Since you don't believe that this gift (tongues of Angels) exist today and believe that those who speak in tongues today are deceived, and frankly you don't know what your talking about when you say that God does not honour prayers offered in tongues.
Wow... you totally did not read what I wrote. Go back and read what I wrote and you will see that what you just said in that paragraph is foolish.
The obvious answer is not your "NO". The answer is "NOT EVERYONE".
Uh... yea... thats what I said. The answer to the question of "do all speak with tongues" is NO... not all do. Thats what I said.
When you say that the gift is the lowest, your putting also everything else on that list. Apostles, Prophets, Teachers, Miracle Workers, Gifts of healing.
Read Chapter 13 (the very next Chapter... of which Paul introduced in the last verse of Chapter 12 with "now I will show you a better way")
Your instructions are, to be quiet about it, use it according to His will and use it in your prayer closet.
You got that part right! Yea!
Your encouragement is very weak brother, "I hope you do" is so so lame coming from you. It's like the baptist who believes that tongues should be in order in Church but don't allow it to manifest. Good one man!
Again, you are making foolish assumptions about me.
Even though this is the least of the gifts....
Wait... you scolded me for saying that...
I could respond to more, but whats the point? Your whole response is based on two things:
1) I dont believe you carefully read what I wrote. You could not have and reacted to it and me the way you did.
2) You have made assumptions about me and what I believe when in fact you really have no idea what I believe on the matter.
Love ya brother but your reaction was baseless, judgemental and frankly rather foolish because you've never asked me what I believe on this, altho it was stated and/or implied in what I wrote.
Notice I have never made statements declaring what YOU believe. Why? Because I am wise enough to realize I dont know you well enough to know what you believe.
Krispy
rbanks... that speaking in tongues is the initial evidence of being baptised in the Spirit is an opinion based doctrine. Not every case in scripture shows it being so. It's a stretch. Interestly this is the difference between Pentecostalism and Charismatic... Pentecostals believe it is the initial evidence, and Charismatics generally give room to the fact that it is not always accompanied with it (just as Paul wrote in Corinthians 12).
I would mention what Baptists teach, but lately there has been a lot of hostility and hatred of Baptists on this site... so I wont go there.
Krispy
krispy wrote:
Let's not get carried away... praying for someone's needs in tongues is no more powerful than not. God does not honor prayers offered in tongues anymore than He does the simple plea of a child or an adult who approaches Him as a little child.
First: I didn’t say that God honored tongues more than anyone else’s prayers, you assumed that.
Secondly: In my experience, praying in tongues for someone’s need is indeed more powerful than praying in English. I support that with what Jesus said in John 16.13, “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but WHATSOEVER HE SHALL HEAR, THAT SHALL HE SPEAK...”
The Holy Spirit speaks what He hears so I am confident that whenever I am praying in tongues, God is honoring it. When we pray in the Spirit, He is the one praying, brother, not us! And thank God for it!
God bless,
Lisa
Lysa, I did not say God does not honor it. If you look at what you just wrote you will realize that we said the exact same thing.
This is what happens when people expect me to say one thing because of assumptions they've made about me, and then I dont say what they expect. What I really am saying gets completely by-passed.
Krispy
Please forgive me. My reply was not fitting and I truly apologize. Not worth keeping.
"Without the Holy Spirit there is no power."
Amen.
Joyful heart, a testimony...:-) I was in the back of this small church one Sunday evening and worshipping the Lord before the pastor came and spoke. Well during the worship he asked for an altar call and the majority of the people left their seats and moved up front. About that time I sank to my knees and was continuing to worship the lord. My son who is now 8 was 6 then, crawled into my lap at that time and the next thing I know I look down and he is praying in tongues as fluently as any grown adult can speak their native tongue. It was such an amazing time. One that I will always cherish.
EvangelTam, please forgive me for taking part in hijacking your thread. I didn't start it but I would hope to bring it to a close. God bless, Lisa
Some people are given the gift of tongues, and some are not. Scripture is VERY plain about that. Let's not be ignorant.
And it’s here in this “public gathering” that God has set first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
Please read the above again.... Paul states very clearly what a healthy public assembly should look like and what is definitely listed or included? Different kinds of tongues are and no exceptions are made.
In verses 29 & 30, Paul continues on talking about the healthy public assembly and who is included... Can all be apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?”
Paul is saying that not every single person (all) in the public assembly can be an apostle, nor can they all be a prophet, nor can they all be a teacher, nor can they all be a worker or miracles, nor can they all have the gifts of healing, nor can they all be a speak with tongues,.
Brother, I humbly submit that what Paul is commenting on here is that ALL cannot give messages PUBLICLY in tongues to the church. I submit that because all the other gifts that he listed with it are gifts that are used publically; you can’t teach alone, you need people to learn; you can’t be an apostle alone, you need to build a churches with people; you can’t heal alone, you need sick people to heal. Does that make sense?
Another reason for my believing that is in 1 Cor 14.28 Paul states very plainly that IN THE CHURCH it is OK to speak in tongues to yourself and to God if there is no interpreter.... “but if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.” We are meant to speak in tongues in our homes and in the public assembly.
I believe that God means for all his children to speak in tongues “IF” they want the gift and I believe that our adversary, the devil, has taken that one statement “do all speak with tongues?” and robbed the children of God from having a full Spirit-filled life.
God bless you all,
Lisa
Obviously some of this I agree with you, sister Lisa... but some of it I do not. I am rock solid on what I believe scripture teaches concerning this topic... so while I appreciate you writing this all out for me, it was not necessary.
:-)
Krispy
This discussion is locked.
