Reconciliation of 1 Cor 11:5 and 1 Cor 14:34!

Recently I have been discussing the issue of women being silent in an assembly of the church with some Christians and someone mentioned that 1 Cor 14:34 could not possibly mean that women were to be silent in the common sense of the English word because it would contradict 1 Cor 11:5 where it talks of women needing to wear a head covering when they pray or prophecy (which would of course involve speaking).

So...not knowing what to say about that apparent contradiction I brought the matter up before the Lord and here is what He led me to understand.

I present it here to allow Him to give me more adequate understanding or even correction through those of you here who might care to comment on what I have been led to understand bearing in mind that I may yet not understand things as well as I ought to.

First let me quote the verses in question...(from the NASB or New American Standard Bible)...

1 Cor 11:5 says "But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying..."

1 Cor 14:34 says "The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak..."

The context of these instructions is important. For example in 1 Cor 14:35 a woman may speak out and ask her husband whatever she wants to know about whereas in 1 Cor 14:34 she is not allowed to speak out at all.

The difference is the context.

In 1 Cor 14:34 the context for the application of that instruction is an assembly of the church whereas in 1 Cor 14:35 the context is the home where a woman can speak out freely.

As I prayed to the Lord to give me insight on this apparent contradiction (between being allowed to speak with a head covering and not in an assembly) and how to get around it, it dawned on me that the context of the instruction to remain silent in 1 Cor 14:34 is absolutely clear.

1 Cor 14:19 - "...however, in the church..."
1 Cor 14:23 - "Therefore if the whole church assembles together..."
1 Cor 14:26 - "...When you assemble..."

The context of the instruction for women to remain silent is an assembly of the church. The whole church.

Bear with me...

Now let's look at 1 Cor 11:5 and whatever context might pertain to those instructions.

In many circles the instructions about head coverings is assumed to be an assembly of the church. Yet when I asked the Lord about the context I came to realize that the context there is not clear at all.

It simply does not say.

Paul praises the Corinthians for holding on to traditions that he previously taught them (1 Cor 11:2) and then immediately goes into teaching about head coverings.

The first time a context is even mentioned is in 1 Cor 1:17 and 18 which says...

"But in giving this instruction, I do not praise you, because you come together not for the better but for the worse. For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that divisions exist among you;"

A church assembling together again but is that context tied to the instructions about head coverings?

The Amplified Bible puts it this way...

"But in what I instruct [you] next I do not commend [you], because when you meet together, it is not for the better but for the worse. For in the first place, when you assemble as a congregation, I hear that there are cliques (divisions and factions) among you; and I in part believe it..."

According to the Amplified Bible the instructions that Paul attaches to the context of a church assembly are those instructions which he is about to talk about NOT those on head coverings that he just finished instructing them about!

Here is what I believe to be a more correct interpretation of of how 1 Cor 11 and 1 Cor 14 fit together.

Head coverings are to be understood as general instructions to Christians in the church. Not as instructions for how they ought to be in an assembly of the church but in general as to how they ought to be overall.

Women in general are to wear a head covering when they pray or prophesy and men not.

Because of the angels (1 Cor 11:10). Angels are never not present (which would tie into the general context).

Whereas the instructions about women being silent in an assembly of the church in 1 Cor 14:34 and not speaking out in a prophetic utterance or other gift that expresses itself through speaking are attached to the context of an assembly of the church.

This interpretation allows both sets of instructions to perfectly blend together while not discounting or negating what each set says individually about head coverings or women being silent in the church.

This makes perfect sense.

A professor at a college might tell his students that they can all contact their friends through their cell phones by text messaging them any time they want but that in the context of his classroom that they must turn off their cell phones.

Women are to wear a head covering any time they pray or prophecy anywhere except in an assembly of the church where they are not allowed to speak prophetically or in any other way which involves expressing a gift of the Spirit through public speaking to the whole church.

Thoughts on this reconciliation between 1 Cor 11 and 1 Cor 14 anyone?

Carlos

We just had a pretty long thread about this very issue here: https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=43212&forum=34&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0

Welcome to the forum brother!!

Much peace and grace to you!

Carlos,

You can find numerous sermons here on SI that cover the topic (no pun intended), they are at the following link...

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/scr_index.php?act=topicSermons&topic=Head%20Covering&page=0

But brother, I'm wondering why you would join this forum and start out posting on such a divisive topic? There have been numerous threads discussing the topic over the years and they have been often non-productive, I hope this will not be added to their rank.

In Christ,

Ron

But brother, I'm wondering why you would join this forum and start out posting on such a divisive topic? There have been numerous threads discussing the topic over the years and they have been often non-productive, I hope this will not be added to their rank.

Hi Ron,

This forum is to discuss the word of God is it not?

How ridiculous would I be to rebuke a new visitor to my fellowship when he asks a question that we discussed a week before he visited.

Hi Ron,

I did look around before I posted and found nothing on the topic of how to reconcile 1 Cor 11 with 1 Cor 14 so I thought I would post on it.

As to why I chose this as my first topic I really had not intended to post on this topic and had another one that I initially wanted to post on (the free expression of the gifts of the Spirit within the Body) but as I prayed about it the Lord seemed to lay on my heart to post about this first as something that He had led me to understand within the last week.

I had never before seen how to reconcile these two passages and was excited about it and just wanted to share what the Lord had led me to realize about it.

So I posted it.

I hope that was okay.

Carlos

PS. I wish I could figure out how to receive notice of replies from this forum as it is impractical for me to keep coming back to check (I belong to many different forums and am all over the place on the internet in line with both my work and interests).

Thanks for the tip on the thread learjet.

I read through much of that thread and really saw nothing on how to reconcile 1 Cor 11:5 with 1 Cor 14:34 but lots on head coverings.

Unfortunately I also saw a lot of what I usually see in Christian forums where such issues are discussed.

Personal opinion and back and forth discussing all manner of aspects of the issue other than what is written exactly. I don't mean from everyone on the thread but quite a bit of that type of discussion nevertheless.

Carlos

So I posted it.

I hope that was okay.

It certainly was OK, and I apologize if I left you feeling unwelcome here, just weary of the heated threads I guess...

In Christ,

Ron

Thanks for getting back to me Ron. In all honesty what you said was really discouraging and left me rather deflated.

It's not just you though...I too am utterly sick and tired of Christians in general.

Nobody seems to give a you know what about what the Word really says.

Everybody seems to simply spout off their own interpretations based on a whole boatload of assumptions about this or that.

I recently was discussing some of this on a thread on another forum and one of the most vocal one's against the plain meaning of what is written was a person whose entire interpretation was based on assumptions about what the word "silence" meant based on how it was used in other verses, and how we might use the word today. Never mind what Paul actually said or the context in which he said it.

It's like there are blinders over the heart of many who, while having eyes, simply don't see.

Christians get into useless discussions over opinions, assumptions, and conjectures while effectively ignoring whole swaths of the New Testament.

Sometimes I absolutely hate the Christians. I kid you not.

The so-called learned Christians who think they know something are some of the worst.

So I understand where you are coming from in being tired of seemingly fruitless discussion.

At the same time Ron I would encourage you to consider that I was trying to exercise my gift which I believe lies in the prophetic realm (as in encouraging, exhorting, and comforting others). The exercise of my gift may be childlike at present, if indeed it is, but an attempt to exercise a gift should be encouraged not frowned upon.

Even if something has been discussed a thousand times and someone comes into our midst who wants to exercise a teaching or whatever other gift they have by starting a new thread...I say allelujah! Another Christian willing to express what the Spirit may be laying on their hearts.

Such Christians outside the learned one's (if they really are learned in the eyes of God) are in short supply.

I'm not trying to beat up on you Ron. I just want you to realize how discouraging words like yours can be to some, like me, who experience little more than complete baloney from most of the so-called Christians when I speak up and share something that most consider outdated for today's times but which I believe to be nevertheless God's will for how we ought to conduct ourselves in the Body.

In any case I think I'll be discussing these things on other forums mostly because the lack of a subscription functionality here is a very real inconvenience for me though I need to pray about that some as the Lord may be tugging on my heart to stick around here a little longer.

Carlos

Carlos,

In Ron's defense, it is true some of those that have been here are weary of the tit for tat on this subject, but I do believe there are some new people here that also started out talking about this subject when they joined and probably will engage you. They did not seem to be fulfilled in the last conversation on this subject.

Pilgrim

Carlos, this topic has been discussed like other posters stated. The angle you are looking for has been as well but it lies buried deep within that topic's thread.

To answer your question I would like to share something...

The topic in this part of 1Cor. deals a lot with prophesing. The issue is how and when should this be exercised? and in what context? The issue is not what a person can not do but how does the LORD want his children to share the WORD. Think about it from that angle and see how the Holy Spirit would lead you to reconcil the two scriptures.

Blessings.

ginnyrose

Hi Ginny Rose,

On a whim I decided to come back here to this one thread to see if anyone had posted anything else and lo and behold...there you were :).

This forum is a pain to use but I'll keep checking back to this one thread for now.

While I appreciate your input Ginny it leaves me somewhat perplexed as to how Christians all over the place interpret these verses from a standpoint of generalization to the specific as if by doing so we can come to grips with what Paul said in a way that does not lead us to take what he said at face value.

What I mean is your statement for example that "The issue is how and when should this be exercised? and in what context? The issue is not what a person can not but how...etc."

You correctly state that the verses in question and all of 1 Cor (I assume you meant chapter 14 more so) deals a lot with prophesying. You are absolutely correct about that.

But it is by no means only dealing with prophecying.

But...you generalize what you do see as something that is discussed and make it all about that.

I refer to when you say "The issue (as if there is no other being discussed) is how and when should this (i.e. prophecy) be exercised? and in what context?".

Furthermore you generalize what Paul says to not being instructions about what a person can not do when in fact Paul flat out states things that a person cannot do. One cannot speak in tongues without an interpreter, one cannot continue prophecying when a revelation comes to one sitting down, women are not allowed to speak, and so forth.

We cannot rightly interpret Scripture or even have much of a fruitful discussion if we go off generalizing all manner of things about those Scriptures and superimpose our generalizations on what is said as definitive.

Not only superimposing our generalizations on what is said but siding with our generalizations to the point where we refuse to acknowledge what is actually said in the plain meaning of what is written.

I do not mean to say that you would necessarily refuse to acknowledge what is said Ginny only that this is often the reaction of those who base their interpretations on generalizations when their generalizations are questioned.

All of which leads to a bunch of baloney in the sense that we get into arguments having to do with this or that generalization and whether it applies or not to a group of verses.

Some folks saying yes and some saying no.

That is a really poor way to interpret the Scriptures if you ask me. I mean making sweeping generalizations and superimposing those general understandings on what is actually said.

I would rather stick to what is said in the plain meaning of what is said and discuss that.

Trying to question generalizations and trying to show why they don't necessarily apply to the passages in question is fruitless since generalizations are not so easily set aside by those who subscribe to them as a means of interpretation.

Carlos

Carlos,

Relax...I believe in the literal interpretation of the application of wearing of a headcovering and do it.

I also understand that males are to lead in public worship when both men and women are present.

The controversary usually sidesteps what prophecy entails - all people are seeing is that should a woman wear a veiling, never mind the headship issue. I just thought that if one considers what prophesying really is and the context in which it is exercised it may help answer your question in reconcilling these scriptures. But then perhaps the fact that I am a female interferes with understanding what I am saying?

If I offended you, I am sorry. Perhaps it may help you to understand my post if you understand that this issue has been discussd many times and I had this in mind when I wrote what I did.

Perhaps I have said all I should about this issue on this thread?

God bless...

ginnyrose

Hi Ginny,

Just so you know I did not in any way shape or form respond as I did because you are female and the fact that you are female does not in any way whatsoever hinder me from taking what you say on it's own merits.

I could care less personally if you are a woman, an atheist, a buddhist, a Mormom, a Christian, or whatever. If there is something of merit in what you say I want to learn what I can from it (though I would also add that in certain contexts it might not be good for you as a professing believing woman to be teaching men but that's another issue altogether).

I say pass along whatever you want to say to me unless you feel convicted to do otherwise.

I was responding to the substance of what you said. Nothing more and nothing less.

You certainly do sound like you took what I said personally Ginny by telling me to relax, bringing up the fact that you are female and implying by your question that I may be having trouble understanding what you are saying because of that, and saying that maybe you should not contribute anymore to the discussion on this thread.

I did not mean anything hurtful to you in what or how I said it Ginny and apologize if in any way I came across as such to you.

At the same time I must call things I see as I see them and your post did seem to generalize a bit too much in your focus on prophecying and it's definition as the main focus of what Paul says.

You have to understand Ginny that I have talked to so many Christians who generalize away what is said in the plain meaning of what is written that one would think we simply can't understand the Bible anymore at all!

That it's all a matter of generalizations and that everyone's generalizations are perfectly acceptable to superimpose on what is written to explain it away and negate any application from it at all.

Perhaps I over reacted. Again I am sorry Ginny if I did.

What you say in your response makes total sense about how understanding what prophecy is may help us understand what Paul meant to say better. I have no problem with that and absolutely agree!

That's not a generalization leading to a negation of what Paul said but a perfectly valid observation!

May I ask Ginny...

Do you think the context in which Paul's instructions in 1 Cor 11:5 are to be applied, to be an assembly of the church?

Do you think the context for the application of Paul's instruction in 1 Cor 14:34 to be an assembly of the church?

If both are to be applied when the church assembles how do you personally reconcile the seeming discrepancy between allowing women to pray and prophecy with head covered and not allowing them to speak?

I'd like to hear what your thoughts on that are if you don't mind sharing them.

Carlos

Ginny,

I re-read what I previously wrote Ginny and I have to admit that I was rather blunt.

Sorry about that.

I have to watch that.

I would very much appreciate it if you would point it out to me if you see me being that way again. It's one of those character flaws in me that I am often blind to.

Carlos

Bro. Carlos wrote:
"Do you think the context in which Paul's instructions in 1 Cor 11:5 are to be applied, to be an assembly of the church?:

1Cor. 11:5 "But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head,"

This verse is not placing a limit on time or place where a person prays or prophecies. Consider the preceding verse where the males are addressed: "Every man who has something on his head while praying or prophesying disgraces his head."

The emphasis is placed on order, government and how females fit in as well as the males. Males are to have heads uncovered because they bear the glory and image of God. Females are to cover because they are the glory of man. In observing this order by being obedient to this application will empower a person to work under the authority of God because you are acknowledging this authority, you are acting on this authority - like an ambassador does in a foreign country, representing his home government to in a foreign country.

In the public assembly where there may be many people, male and females, there must be order, government functioning. While there it is in all of our best interest to listen, be quiet, to learn what the LORD would be telling us.

Some would say a female should be absolutely silent and if this is the case then she should not be allowed to sing, either. And I have heard of people doing that. Have also seen where a husband practically would not allow his wife to say much of anything anywhere - she is to be silent, not only in church but elsewhere as well.

On the other end of the spectrum you have females leading the church saying they are gifted and it should not be hindered.

Personally, I would understand that in a meeting with males and females present, it is wise (and Biblical) for the males to lead out. They should be the teacher and if there are any questions, to ask her husband privately later. Or, ask the preacher privately later. Usually, I will compliment him, encourage him. Rarely, if ever, will I criticize or challenge him. I believe it is my job as a sister in the church to be an encourager to whoever needs it since I think we all need it. As the Spirit leads I try to be sensitive to those wherever I am...This is the ministry of prophesying operating as I understand it.

QUOTE:
"If both are to be applied when the church assembles how do you personally reconcile the seeming discrepancy between allowing women to pray and prophecy with head covered and not allowing them to speak?"

I see no discrepancy if 1Cor. 11 would mean the veiling is to be worn at all waking hours. This problem occurs when it is understood to mean to be only worn at public worship.

The bottom line, as I understand it, is to be an encourager. How can we best accomplish this? We need to be under authority. We need to be students of those more learned, of those who have greater insight them we. For example, what I wrote here is what our church would teach. We are encouraged and expected to be students of the WORD, walk with the LORD, be filled with his Spirit so we can minister to whoever we encounter wherever we are. Going to a formal worship service will teach us how we are in our understanding so we can better be obedient to the voice of the Spirit in our everyday walk of life.

Listening to males helps us females to become settled and grounded. Too many females think emotionally and thereby are easily mislead. God made us to be more emotional for a reason and He called it good, but it still is something that needs to brought under the authority of the WORD and the Holy Spirit.

Carlos, this is the way I understand it. Does it make any sense?

Hi Ginny,

You say much that makes sense Ginny and I appreciate you sharing it.

If I may so though, you are bringing a lot into your post which roams far and wide over the breadth and width of what is taught about submission, our overall purpose, the gift of prophecy, head coverings, and various other things.

For purposes of this thread let me just comment on a couple of things you said...

You say "I see no discrepancy if 1Cor. 11 would mean the veiling is to be worn at all waking hours. This problem occurs when it is understood to mean to be only worn at public worship."

I pretty much have come to believe the same thing Ginny. That the instruction for veiling is a general instruction for all times except for when assembled as a church. Where a woman may be veiled but does not have to be since Paul commands women to be silent during the assembly of the church.

In other words a woman does not have to be veiled when she is silent and not praying or prophesying.

Such an interpretation makes perfect sense and as you point out removes any discrepancy between 1 Cor 11:5 and 1 Cor 14:34.

Incidentally it is often suggested that the veiling only inconveniences women but as a side not I too am very inconvenienced by having to not wear a head covering as a man. When I walk about in the cool night air I hate being cold. I hate being cold with a passion. I often want to pray at such times but to do so means that, according to my conviction about what Paul is teaching, I must take off my hat (i.e. toque) and walk around chilled in my head so that I can pray.

I am always having to chose between praying without a nice warm hat or not praying at all (which is not desirable either as I like to talk to God quite often...especially late at night when I am walking out into isolated areas of where I live).

What you mention about the spectrum among Christians to believe that women should not utter one word anywhere to that of believing that they can teach and preach just as the men can points to how rampant abuse is on both sides of the spectrum and how crazy persons who profess to be Christians can get in their interpretations.

I do not believe that Paul's command to be silent is a command to never say one single solitary word to anyone, at any time, for the entire duration of a church assembly (as if a woman is to put a piece of tape over her mouth and keep it shut during the whole time).

It is a silence that mainly though not entirely refers to speaking in a teaching or authoritative way to the whole church to express the things of God as might be done while prophecying, speaking tongues, interpreting tongues, sharing a revelation, and other such things (see 1 Tim 2:11-12 for more on this).

A woman must also not ask her husband about things in a church assembly so the silence is not just about things that might have a teaching or authoritative dimension to them since asking a husband questions does not involve either teaching or exercising authority per se.

But the main thrust of the silence is the exercise of spiritual gifts I think.

Thanks again for your input Ginny.

Carlos

QUOTE:
"In other words a woman does not have to be veiled when she is silent and not praying or prophesying."

I disagree. To put on and to put off is bothersome - depending on the situation. Why not just put it on and then you can forget it?

QUOTE:
"If I may so though, you are bringing a lot into your post which roams far and wide over the breadth and width of what is taught about submission, our overall purpose, the gift of prophecy, head coverings, and various other things."

I know. You are right. I am well aware of the various application of this principle. Some say women are NOT to say anything and others will say, "yes, they can (in a mixed group), but under the authority of males." This latter point is where we are as a brotherhood.

There is a lot more to be said about women staying SILENT. I have also observed these ladies have nothing to say about the LORD otherwise making me wonder whether they even know Him? Scripture tells us to confess with our mouth the LORD Jesus and I would understand this is to occur in all of life when we interact with people wherever that may be. But to say nothing? Oooohhh...evokes more questions and doubts.

While on this subject I would like to share an observation. Most churches have abandoned the application of veiled heads for the sisters. However, it is becoming common now for the men to wear caps, hats in social functions, inside - out of the weather. Their wives in the meantime are bareheaded. I find this very distasteful, disrespectful. If a male comes into my house and will not remove his cap after being here for a while, I will respectfully ask him to do so! Yes, my nephew took offense for me doing this, but this is my house and if you are here as my guest there are certain rules I expect my guests to follow and one of them is that you will not wear a cap while socializing here in our house! Don't like it? You are welcome to leave, we will not stop you!

In closing I will share this. I find this topic wearisome because of the conflict it evokes. Why is it so hard to recognize lines of authority/government? Is it because too many are a hankering to be lords and not subjects? What if we were to concentrate on being servants, looking around to see how we can best help others? This is where life is lived at its best - being a servant - one who has no bragging rights or any at all, actually. And you do not have the responsibility of the success of the project - you just do as your Master instructs and let Him take responsibility of its outcome! This is my goal and to this end I want to be faithful.

God bless.