How can I die with Christ, when I'm dead in sin? (as a non-Christian)

Hello all,I’ve got a question. The Bible tells that I was “dead in sin” (Ephesians 2:1,5), but that I, on the other hand, needed to die with Christ (Romans 6). How is it possible to die with Christ, when I’m already dead (as a non-Christian)? Are different events being described?In Colossians 2 it looks like that and I would appreciate, if some of you (or all :-P) could give some clearness about it:“In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.” (:11-12)It says that we are “buried with Him”. So…I was alive, but died and was buried with him, after which, through faith, God raised me from the dead. When I read this, this clearly describes “conversion”. To die to sin and my nature, who I was and what I used to do…receiving forgiveness (Ephesians 1:13) and being raised with Christ to new life (Born by water – repentance – and Spirit – God -)But the other verse seems to speak of something else: “And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses” (:13)Here it says that I was dead. Are verses 11 and 12 a zoom in of what had to take place, before I could see, enter and understand the Kingdom of God? Does verse 13 describe my state and verses 11 and 12 the process how, by Gods grace, I came out of that state (through faith in Jesus Christ)? Does Ephesians 2:1,5 describe my state and Romans 6:3-4 the process how, through Jesus alone, I came out of it?Well…could use some help here..In Christ,Paul

A question to start. Have you been baptized/filled with the Holy Spirit and Fire? By this we can know you are His(Romans 8:9) and capible of understanding spiritual truths, for truly what you intellectualy play/wrestle with is and are thoughts from the mind of Christ and can only be understood by the Spirit of Christ. If so what is the evidence of your filling?

There are lots of resources that deal with this topic here on Sermonindex. One of my favorites is a 4 part series on Justification, Repentance, Regeneration, & Adoption. You are also welcome to follow along in the series titled "The dispensation of the Gospel" in the Revival and Praying section of the forum. There is a lot of resources blended together in it from Finney and others, even a hint of Philologos ;-).God Bless,-Robert

DezcalYou might like to take a look at Next Door to Heaven: Death with a posting date of 2004/5/24 15:57

You received Holy Spirit baptism when you were saved. Without it you couldnt be saved. There are those who dont believe that, and they are wrong.I just thought I ought to put up my hand at this point! :-(

philologos wrote:

You received Holy Spirit baptism when you were saved. Without it you couldnt be saved. There are those who dont believe that, and they are wrong.I just thought I ought to put up my hand at this point! :-(

philologos wrote:Quote:You received Holy Spirit baptism when you were saved. Without it you couldnt be saved. There are those who dont believe that, and they are wrong.I just thought I ought to put up my hand at this point! I'm with Ron on this one. In case we want to elaborate on this topic, however, it would probably be better if we started a new thread in fairness to Dezcall's original question so that it too may be fleshed out so to speak.In Christ,Jeremy HulseyI'm Game...Count me in.-Robert

I’ve got a question. The Bible tells that I was “dead in sin” (Ephesians 2:1,5), but that I, on the other hand, needed to die with Christ (Romans 6). How is it possible to die with Christ, when I’m already dead (as a non-Christian)? Are different events being described?The "dead in sin" language is referring to the spiritual condition of the unregenerate. The "crucified with Christ" language is referring to the Adamic nature. What God sees as dying with Christ is the "old man" or the Adamic nature. "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."(Romans 6:6). But that is only part of the picture because God then sees us as alive with Christ in resurrection, regenerated to wonderful communion with God "in Christ".Watchman Nee explains it far better than I do, I would suggest you read his book The Normal Christian Life, you will be blessed by readin it.In Christ,Ron

Your Quote: It has nothing to do with baptism by fire... and yadda yadda yadda... dont pay any attention to that. You received Holy Spirit baptism when you were saved. Without it you couldnt be saved. There are those who dont believe that, and they are wrong. There are those who seek "signs and wonders", but the Bible warns that many will come in the last days with signs and wonders and deceiving many. This is a interesting opinion, what is your biblical reference for this "specific" issue. I am not "seeking signs and wonders" but evidence of being "baptized" in the Holy Spirit. Please then expound on the following verse...Act 19:1 It was while Apollos was in Corinth that Paul passed through the inland districts and came to Ephesus. He found a few disciples there Act 19:2 and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They answered him, "No, we haven't even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." Act 19:3 He then asked, "Then into what were you baptized?" They answered, "Into John's baptism." Act 19:4 Then Paul said, "John baptized with a baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, in Jesus." Act 19:5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Act 19:6 When Paul laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began to speak in tongues and to prophesy. Act 19:7 There were about twelve men in all. Act 8:12 But when Philip proclaimed the good news of the kingdom of God and of the name of Jesus Christ, men and women believed and were baptized. Act 8:13 Even Simon believed, and after he was baptized he became devoted to Philip. He was amazed to see the signs and great miracles that were happening. Act 8:14 Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. Act 8:15 They went down and prayed for them to receive the Holy Spirit. Act 8:16 Before this he had not come on any of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Act 8:17 Then they laid their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. andAct 9:17 So Ananias left and went to that house. He laid his hands on Saul and said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were traveling, has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit." in conjuction with...Act 26:12 "That is how I happened to be traveling to Damascus with authority based on a commission from the high priests. Act 26:13 On the road at noon, O King, I saw from heaven a light that was brighter than the sun flash around me and those who were traveling with me. Act 26:14 All of us fell to the ground, and I heard a voice asking me in the Hebrew language, 'Saul! Saul! Why are you persecuting me? It is hurting you to keep on kicking against the goads.' Act 26:15 I asked, 'Who are you, Lord?' The Lord answered, 'I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. Act 26:16 But get up and stand on your feet, for I have appeared to you for the very purpose of appointing you to be a servant and witness of what you have seen and of what I will show you. Act 26:17 I will continue to rescue you from your people and from the gentiles to whom I am sending you. Act 26:18 You will open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light and from Satan's control to God, so that they might receive the forgiveness of sins and a share among those who are sanctified by faith in me.' Act 26:19 "And so, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision. Act 26:20 Instead, I first told the people in Damascus and Jerusalem, then the whole countryside of Judea, and then the gentiles to repent, turn to God, and practice works that are consistent with such repentance. All of these verses show that people were saved first and followed after with the filling of the Holy Spirit. Show us 1 verse that shows that we recieve the Holy Spirit at salvation. In Love with a open mind, William P.S. I will supply you at no charge a 7 part, down loadable series that reveals from a theological persective the truth of this matter, do you have the courage to listen?

wanderson,This is very interesting topic you bring up. I don't want to discourage you from posting your thoughts, but this is not the topic of this thread :-) . For this thread let's stick with "How can I die with Christ, when I'm dead in sin? (as a non-Christian)".I would encourage you though to start a new thread on the topic you wish to talk about :-D . I would be interested to see how it goes. Thanks,In Christ,Jeremy HulseyPreachParsley has started a thread for this topic. Here's the link:Baptism/infilling of spiritThank you bro.

Dear brothers,Thanks for all the comments so far. It is becoming very clear to me now, as God is revealing it to me through simply reading His word, but also through the lovely help you all have offered. Thanks so much!You see, I don’t question the reality of it, because it definitely has taken place in my life. As I understand it now, it’s actually rather simple (as everything is, when Christ reveals it!). Shoot me if I’m wrong…but as far as I can understand right now…God is speaking about different kinds of death. Death in relation to God and a relationship with Him. Death to our nature, ruined through sin, which happens when we turn to Christ (described in Romans 6). Yes! I understand it now! But now I do have another question, if I’m allowed to ask this question. In Romans 6 it says that our old man is crucified with Christ, but in Ephesians 4 it says that we should put off the old man. It seems like Romans 6 is a one-time-event, while in Ephesians 4 this seems to be a day-to-day decision. How can that be?I have some thoughts about it, but it isn’t becoming quite clear to me yet, so I just wanted to ask this question straightforward. But to end this post…Thanks Ron for referring to the chapter “Death” of your book. I had already read it some time ago, but it’s pretty clear… Thanks to other Ron (InTheLight) as well. Let me tell you brother. Your posts are always so clear and an enlightenment (hmmm..don’t know if that’s a word, but I hope you get what I mean).Krispy…you wrote: Stick to the Bible!AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! That’s the best advice I (and all people in this world) can be given. Just read it! Some want to read it in Hebrew, others want to read it in Greek, I prefer to read it in the Holy Ghost (I don’t know who said it…but I give a big amen to that. But I am truly thankful for people like Ron Bailey and Robert Wurtz, who know something more about this abracadabra-language to me ;-))Robert…thanks for referring to those sermons. I think I’m going to listen to them…and I will take a look at “The dispensation of the Gospel". What a blessing to know you all!Lets surrender our all to Christ, so that Christ may be glorified. God is not the one who was and shall be, but now is not...He lives! And Jesus wants to present Himself through us to this world...as a reality. Be gripped by this simple, but striking verse..from which many Churches and believers (including myself) can learn much:"Sir...we would like to see Jesus" (John 12:21). I love it...:-DPaul

But now I do have another question, if I’m allowed to ask this question.Sorry if I came off a little strict about sticking to this topic. Most threads here on SI tend to morph into conversations different from the original post, but the topic has usually already been hashed out. This thread started to change so quickly that I was afraid you would not get your question answered properly before we all took off in a different direction. That's why I suggested starting a new thread :-) .In Christ,Jeremy Hulsey

This thread started to change so quickly that I was afraid you would not get your question answered properly before we all took off in a different direction. That's why I suggested starting a new threadYes...thank you very much for that Jeremy! Now I got my answer :-DNow on to the other one...and I think it links up with the former question, so I put it in this same thread. Here it is:In Romans 6 it says that our old man is crucified with Christ, but in Ephesians 4 it says that we should put off the old man. It seems like Romans 6 is a one-time-event, while in Ephesians 4 this seems to be a day-to-day decision. How can that be?

You wrote:"Show us 1 verse that shows that we recieve the Holy Spirit at salvation."1 verse? John 20:22 declares what you are looking for.The Holy Spirit was breathed into them and if you'll take note it speaks LITERALLY of a definate act of reception AT THAT MOMENT.They DID receive the Spirit of God at Salvation and the FILLING came in Acts 2.Refer to "Full Life Study Bible" for more...Chow