God in the OT

I was in a discussion today at work with a guy who goes to the same church I go to. He is indian and told me he used to be Hindu. I brought up a question that many atheists have brought up and up until now I never gave it alot of thought. I told this fellow that that the only answers I can give for the solution is that ' there is wisdom there that is so high that right now I don't think we understand the why's of it'.

Issues of the OT when God seemingly kills people. i.e, Noah's flood and then the various killings in the promised land. Now, the easy answer is to say it is sin that did it but then the questions begs why does the bible say God commanded it to be done? It seems that in the OT God is the God of life and death and Satan is only shone in small parts. This fellow also asked if God knew of all of these things beforehand why did He allow it to go on. I told him that it probably has to do with our will. We parted after that as he had to attend a meeting.

What kind of answers are there to these circumstances?

KK

Your post reflects the reason that I told this fellow that there is wisdom there but seems to high for us to understand it.

Wouldn't it be a common sense thing to say that God in the OT really isn't God as a result of the things that happened? Why do you suppose that as Christians, we accept those things that happen and don't question much- because we don't have answers- and yet go with it. Does this mean we just don't question God or is there something else at play? What causes Christian to lift up God from the OT in light of the atrocities that happened and the way in which they happened?

Perhaps the problem comes because you are trying to apply man's morality to God. The "atrocities" that you speak of are indeed immoral if done by man because man, in taking life, would be excersizing a prerogative meant only for God. But there is nothing immoral about the Creator taking life away. Life is His to do with as He wants, He gives as Creator, and He takes away as Creator.

Also, before you start to think that there are two different "gods" of the OT and NT, remember that hell is Christ's doctrine and that Jesus came to bring a sword.

It is a misrepresentation to characterize the God of the OT as only angry and vengeful and the God of the NT as only merciful and kind. God is all of those things all the way through the Bible. It's just that the NT reveals that Gods rescue plan came to fruition. So the specifics of salvation in the NT are written against the judgment against fallen humanity that is revealed in both the OT and the NT(particularly the book of Revelation).

In Christ,

Ron

Questions and answers surrounding divine justice, wrath, and mercy are great. And I've discovered that we can give very nice and very theologically correct answers to these things. But at the end of the day, none of those answers will ever be emotionally satisfying.

Oh, the tension and paradox of being a saint!

Atheists will say that the God of the OT is immoral, because He condones polygamy and slavery and also commanded the Midianites to be killed except for 32,000 virgins (because they did not cause Israel to sin). This meant that all the baby boys, married women, women that prostituted themselves with Israel and all the men should be killed.

So, Atheists say they are more moral than God because they would not have done this.

They say it is astounding that Christians defend Yahweh's immorality and that He is a bronze age God made up by bronze age men. They don't want to hear "His ways are higher than our ways", or "everything that God does is just and right". They say that those statements contradict even a Christian's morality. "Why couldn't God spare the baby boys?"

First of all, everyone that gets truly born-again, gets born-again by revelation not reason and logic. This does not satisfy Atheists. Atheists think they can bring God down to their morality level and pummel Him. Just look at www.usbible.com.

But God is not the God of man's morality. This also, does not satisfy Atheists.

But, I don' try to satisfy them. Because in order for them to understand God they have to understand that God is not about morality. God is God and He does what He does because He is God. And what they don't want to know is what sin is. Sin is not an act it is disobedience to God. Sin is the antithesis of God's character.

They say because of the immoral acts of God in the OT, this proves that the OT was written by bronze age men and not God.

Of course if you tell them that Jesus never took issue with anything in the OT and if there was anything incorrect in the OT, now would have been the time for Jesus to correct it. But He never spoke negatively about anything in the OT. It appeared that Jesus endorsed everything.

Atheists then say that because of this, Jesus was complicit by not correcting anything in the OT.

So, that brings us to this. How effective are apologetics? Well, in some cases I can see God using annointed reason to give the hearers revelation.

Paul stood in the midst of Mars hill and reasoned with the men of Athens.

Sin is the character of Satan, the Evil One, and that is
why “sin” is sometimes personified in scripture (cf. Gen.
4:7; Rom. 6:112‐14). I John 3:8 is quite clear: “The one
who sins, derives what he/she does from the devil, for
the devil has sinned from the beginning.” Sin is the
expression of Satan’s character – in whatever act and
whatever person it takes place. Sin is any character
contrary to the character of God.

The act of adultery is simply the action of sexual
intercourse. Is there anything sinful about sexual
intercourse, per se? No, God commanded human beings
to “Be fruitful, and multiply!” (Gen. 1:22,28). Now, the
context, and the question of whether the persons so
involved in such sexual intercourse are in covenantal
marriage relationship will have something to do with
identifying the act as “adultery,” But, on the other hand,
if one married partner brings a derived selfish character
and attitude to the act of marital intercourse in a
committed marriage, can that not likewise be sinful?

God does not exist on the plane of man's perceived morality. This answer does not satisfy Atheists, either.

But, God does what does because of who He is. He is not who He is because of what He does.

I like this quote by Jim Fowler:

#1 Why do you insist that Christian thought must start and finish with the “character of God”? Because everything starts with who God IS, and everything ends with who God IS. Who God IS has to do with His character. He is not who He IS apart from His character!

As a student of Christian thought and theology for many
years, I have noticed that most of the theology texts
begin with a discussion of what God does, or has done.
They commence with God’s plan, His covenant
arrangements, His election, His determinations, His
predestined will, His decrees, His Law, precepts or
principles, etc. This is absurd! The proper study of God
should never start with what God does, and then from
His activity determine who He IS. The premise of “I am,
because I do” – identity based on performance – is not
true of God or of man.

Everything God does is determined by Who He IS – His
character. God does what He does, because He IS Who
He IS.

The character of this God who IS (the “I AM that I AM”)
is an exclusive character. What God IS, only God IS! Who
God IS, only God IS. He is thereby distinguished from all
of creation, rejecting all monistic and pantheistic
theories. That is why we note that God is Holy (I Pet. 1:15,16) – God is set apart, separated from, distinct
from, all that is not Himself – His absolutely Holy Self.
The theologians have often differentiated between the
transferrable and non‐transferrable attributes of God,
believing that God can share or distribute some of His
attributes to His creatures. His omnipresence is nontransferable, they maintain, but His Love is transferable.

I disagree! “God IS love,” the apostle John writes, not
“God has some love to distribute and pass around.” The
entirety of God’s character is non‐transferable. His
character is exclusive to Himself. What God IS, only God
IS! God is the singular and exclusive Self‐giving Self –
that is what LOVE is!

God acts out of His own Being – out of Himself (ek
autos) – to express His own exclusive character. What
God IS, only God IS, and only God can express Who He
IS. Man is not capable of generating, manufacturing,
producing the character of God. And yet, many
Christians seem to think that the objective of the
Christian life is just that – to imitate God, to reproduce
His character. Not so! Only God can express the
character of God. “God does not give His glory to
another” (Isa. 42:8; 48:11).

Pilgrim

I just wanted to add that Atheists don't believe there is a real Devil or Satan. So, to them it really looks like God against man in the OT.

But, Christians know that this is not true. There is an adversary that instigates the nations and tribes surrounding Israel in the OT to destroy them. Satan is trying to wipe them out so as to prevent the promised Redeemer from bruising his head.

We see Pharoah killing all the male babies under a certain age but he (Satan) was not successful in destroying the redeemer (Moses). We see Satan trying again through Herod to destroy the Redeemer (Jesus), but he fails once again.

Atheists cannot deal with the Bible on their terms so they get rid of Satan and Sin. They then bring God down to their level of morality and pummel Him as immoral.

I like these quotes about Morality. Especially the first one. So, to get into an apologetics discussion with an unbeliever on morality one must be ready to explain God's perceived morality in the OT. I just stay away from those discussions/debates. I don't think we have reason and logic on our side in those debates. I would love to hear from anyone else here on how they handle those discussions.

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"Morality is part of the condition of the fall. Now endowed with the power to define good and evil, to elaborate it, to know it and to pretend to obey it, man can no longer renounce this power which he has purchased so dearly. He must exercise it. He (fallen man) cannot live without morality." (Jacques Ellul - To Will and To Do. Pilgrim Press. 1969. pg. 71)

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"Christianity has nothing commensurate with any morality. It is the essence itself of revelation that rules out all ethical systematizing and all similarity with a morality. The Christian life is not a life conformed to a morality, but one conformed to a word revealed, present, and living." (Jacques Ellul - To Will and To Do. Pilgrim Press. 1969. pg. 86)

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"One of the essential rules of the Christian life is never to ask a non-Christian to conduct himself like a Christian. If grace really renews a person; if the Christian life is already evidence of the life of someone who is in Christ; if obedience to the Christian ethic is the loving response of a recipient of grace to Him who has shown His love by bestowing grace, then how can one ask a man who has not received, or who did not know that he was under grace, to act as though . . . as though his person were renewed, as though he had experienced grace bestowed upon him, as though he knew that he was the object of God's love? The obligation placed upon him is nothing but restraint. The morality to which he submits can only be based upon the fear of punishment, and God becomes then the great condemner. That is what regularly happens in so-called Christian societies." (Jacques Ellul - To Will and To Do. Pilgrim Press. 1969. pg. 104)

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"In the eyes of our contemporaries, Christianity is morality first of all. And have not many epochs of Christian history been characterized by the church's insistence upon actions and conduct? ...There cannot be a Christian ethic. The whole of revelation is against it, and every attempt to construct such a morality, no matter how faithful, is a betrayal of the revelation of God in Jesus Christ, and in the last analysis an imposture. (Jacques Ellul - To Will and To Do. Pilgrim Press. 1969. pg. 201)

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"The Christian...life is dynamic. Each situation, like each person, is novel. The command of God is not a general rule, or collection of rules. It is always particular for a person at this moment, in this situation. In the unity recovered through grace, in the union with God, we are in the presence of quite a different ethical orientation. It can only be lived in Christ. There is no Christian life without the action of the Holy Spirit, without His inspiration and guidance. The necessity for God's intervening to guide our lives puts an end to our pretending to erect a Christian morality. Christian living does not exist as a morality; for he who lives it, lives by it. He does not follow commandments nor achieve objectives. He lives by the word of God which nourishes him, guides him, and carries him. There is not one Christian life. There are as many Christian lives as there are Christians. One lives in ever-surprising novelty. (Jacques Ellul - To Will and To Do. Pilgrim Press. 1969. pg. 201-219)

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"Christianity seems at first to be all about morality, all about duties and rules and guilt and virtue, yet it leads you on, out of all that, into something beyond. One has a glimpse of a country where they do not talk of those things, except perhaps as a joke. Every one there is filled full with what we should call goodness as a mirror is filled with light. But they do not call it goodness. They do not call it anything. They are not thinking of it. They are too busy looking at the source from which it comes." (C. S. Lewis - Mere Christianity. Macmillan Publishing. 1978. pgs. 130,131)

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"The Christian is in a different position from other people who are trying to do good. The Christian thinks any good he does come from the Christ-life inside him. He does not think God will love us because we are good, but that God will make us good because He loves us..." (C. S. Lewis - Mere Christianity. Macmillan Publishing. 1978. pg. 64)
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Pilgrim