Baptism/infilling of spirit

i noticed in the How can I die with Christ, when I'm dead in sin? (as a non-Christian)thread there was some talk about the baptism of the spirt. no one else started a thread so i thought i would! Ill ask some generic questions.. Are you filled, saved, or just sealed when you are saved? or none of the above? When you recive the baptism do you speak in tougues? Whats the difference of the infilling and baptism of the spirit? I know this is a hot topic that almost splits the body of christ in two (or man has split it) so remember to be full of love!

Thank you PreachParsley for starting the new thread.To make it easier to discuss, I've copied the other posts from the previous thread and pasted them below:wanderson’s original post:A question to start. Have you been baptized/filled with the Holy Spirit and Fire? By this we can know you are His(Romans 8:9) and capible of understanding spiritual truths, for truly what you intellectualy play/wrestle with is and are thoughts from the mind of Christ and can only be understood by the Spirit of Christ. If so what is the evidence of your filling?Krispy’s response:It has nothing to do with baptism by fire... and yadda yadda yadda... dont pay any attention to that. You received Holy Spirit baptism when you were saved. Without it you couldnt be saved. There are those who dont believe that, and they are wrong. There are those who seek "signs and wonders", but the Bible warns that many will come in the last days with signs and wonders and deceiving many.Stick to the Bible!Hope that helped,KrispyRon’s response to Krispy: Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------You received Holy Spirit baptism when you were saved. Without it you couldnt be saved. There are those who dont believe that, and they are wrong.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------I just thought I ought to put up my hand at this point! My response:)I'm with Ron on this one.Krispy and Robert’s response:I'm game...; Count me in.wanderson’s final response:Your Quote: It has nothing to do with baptism by fire... and yadda yadda yadda... dont pay any attention to that. You received Holy Spirit baptism when you were saved. Without it you couldnt be saved. There are those who dont believe that, and they are wrong. There are those who seek "signs and wonders", but the Bible warns that many will come in the last days with signs and wonders and deceiving many.This is a interesting opinion, what is your biblical reference for this "specific" issue. I am not "seeking signs and wonders" but evidence of being "baptized" in the Holy Spirit.Please then expound on the following verse...Act 19:1 It was while Apollos was in Corinth that Paul passed through the inland districts and came to Ephesus. He found a few disciples there Act 19:2 and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They answered him, "No, we haven't even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." Act 19:3 He then asked, "Then into what were you baptized?" They answered, "Into John's baptism." Act 19:4 Then Paul said, "John baptized with a baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, in Jesus." Act 19:5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Act 19:6 When Paul laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began to speak in tongues and to prophesy. Act 19:7 There were about twelve men in all. Act 8:12 But when Philip proclaimed the good news of the kingdom of God and of the name of Jesus Christ, men and women believed and were baptized. Act 8:13 Even Simon believed, and after he was baptized he became devoted to Philip. He was amazed to see the signs and great miracles that were happening. Act 8:14 Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. Act 8:15 They went down and prayed for them to receive the Holy Spirit. Act 8:16 Before this he had not come on any of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Act 8:17 Then they laid their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. andAct 9:17 So Ananias left and went to that house. He laid his hands on Saul and said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were traveling, has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit." in conjuction with...Act 26:12 "That is how I happened to be traveling to Damascus with authority based on a commission from the high priests. Act 26:13 On the road at noon, O King, I saw from heaven a light that was brighter than the sun flash around me and those who were traveling with me. Act 26:14 All of us fell to the ground, and I heard a voice asking me in the Hebrew language, 'Saul! Saul! Why are you persecuting me? It is hurting you to keep on kicking against the goads.' Act 26:15 I asked, 'Who are you, Lord?' The Lord answered, 'I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. Act 26:16 But get up and stand on your feet, for I have appeared to you for the very purpose of appointing you to be a servant and witness of what you have seen and of what I will show you. Act 26:17 I will continue to rescue you from your people and from the gentiles to whom I am sending you. Act 26:18 You will open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light and from Satan's control to God, so that they might receive the forgiveness of sins and a share among those who are sanctified by faith in me.' Act 26:19 "And so, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision. Act 26:20 Instead, I first told the people in Damascus and Jerusalem, then the whole countryside of Judea, and then the gentiles to repent, turn to God, and practice works that are consistent with such repentance. All of these verses show that people were saved first and followed after with the filling of the Holy Spirit.Show us 1 verse that shows that we recieve the Holy Spirit at salvation.In Love with a open mind,WilliamP.S. I will supply you at no charge a 7 part, down loadable series that reveals from a theological persective the truth of this matter, do you have the courage to listen?In Christ,Jeremy Hulsey

I'd have to concede that, according to scripture, the infilling of the Holy Spirit comes through the laying on of hands by those who've already received it. It would also seem to be the case, tho I'll have to look more deeply into this, that those people, or some of them, had already received salvation when, later, they received the laying on of hands. Now, I know that a multitude of misguided individuals are running around sullying the waters, and doing/saying whacky things regarding the Holy Spirit. The reaction of other, more stayed, individual churches and persons is to villify all "moves of the Holy Spirit" as false. My experience is that those (churches & individuals) who don't try to, or ask for, the infilling of the Holy Spirit are surprisingly lacking in growth, salvations, outreaches that have lasting fruit, depth of relationship with God and one another, etc. That, after living in something like 9 different states, and attending myriad different churches, of every degree of belief in the present working of the Holy Spirit. It seems to me, and who am I to say know, that for a person or church to have a real, earth-shaking effect on the world around them, they have to elicit the works of Jesus, all of them, or a good many. That is just what I've seen in 40 some years of life, and 24 years of living for Jesus.Love ya,PastorPancho ;-)

what about Romans 8 v. 9?You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. I think the examples just show the grace of God - he won't leave a "believer" without the opportunity to belong to him! I've been in the position of believing but without the power not be controlled "by the sinful nature" as above - it's not very nice!

what about Romans 8 v. 9?You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.I think the examples just show the grace of God - he won't leave a "believer" without the opportunity to belong to him! I've been in the position of believing but without the power not be controlled "by the sinful nature" as above - it's not very nice!You may have noticed one or two folk who have said 'I agree with Ron'... this is almost certainly where we disagree, so I am not acting as spokesman for that group. :-) One of the problems we are going to have on this thread is that of terms used. I try to be accurate in using Bible terms, which differ quite often from the way that evangelicals use them. Please read carefully because I will be saying what I am saying and not what you think I am saying. :-) Many evangelicals use this verse to support their belief but it doesn't say what they have assumed it says. This verse does not say 'if I am Christ's I have His Spirit', it says 'if I have His Spirit I am Christs'. Can you see the difference? Evangelicals have created a method for becoming a Christian. They then say we are Christians because we have gone through a process; we are Christ's because we have gone through a process and... therefore because of this verse, they say, we have the Spirit.That is not what the verse is saying. The verse is saying that the criteria by which Paul judges that someone is Christ's is that they have the Spirit. Or to put it in the negative form in which he expresses it; ... if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. (Rom 8:9 NASB)The question to ask here is not; "am I Christ's, because if so I have His Spirit"but"do I have His Spirit, because if so I am His'This is a fundamental difference between my understanding and most other evangelicals.

The question to ask here is not; "am I Christ's, because if so I have His Spirit"but"do I have His Spirit, because if so I am His'This is a fundamental difference between my understanding and most other evangelicals.Hi Bro. Ron,But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you (Romans 8:11)I always viewed this verse as meaning that if a person has the Holy Spirit then that Holy Spirit would resurrect them on that great resurrection day. If they did not, they would not be part of the first resurrection. Yet, I view the great evidence of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as the fruit of the Spirit. I take no real stock in miracles as many will do acts of dunamis and be lost. (Matthew 7:23) Traditionally I have taught and believed that a person truly born again received the Holy Spirit. As a Pentecostal, I also believe that there is a second baptism of power for service. This is a classical view. Maybe I am jumping the gun here. But, can you at least discuss my understanding of Romans 8:11?Thanks!-Robert

Well, I am a bit confused by which 'group' is refereed to here...But Ron, you can be my spokesman any day, especially on this one.Please read carefully because I will be saying what I am saying and not what you think I am saying.Just like that quote...Many evangelicals use this verse to support their belief but it doesn't say what they have assumed it says. This verse does not say 'if I am Christ's I have His Spirit', it says 'if I have His Spirit I am Christs'. Can you see the difference? Evangelicals have created a method for becoming a Christian. They then say we are Christians because we have gone through a process; we are Christ's because we have gone through a process and... therefore because of this verse, they say, we have the Spirit.It's all the difference in the world and this could be spread like a giant garment over a whole host of 'issues' that get misconstrued.It is still a process, obviously, but you don't become 'born again', you are born again, then...The question to ask here is not; "am I Christ's, because if so I have His Spirit"but"do I have His Spirit, because if so I am His'"Joh 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Joh 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

Ron Many evangelicals use this verse to support their belief but it doesn't say what they have assumed it says. This verse does not say 'if I am Christ's I have His Spirit', it says 'if I have His Spirit I am Christs'. Can you see the difference? Evangelicals have created a method for becoming a Christian. They then say we are Christians because we have gone through a process; we are Christ's because we have gone through a process and... therefore because of this verse, they say, we have the Spirit.I hope I have not misunderstood you here sir but if I may add another twist in the same loop:John1: 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.This is where my controversy with the evangelicals comes in. If you are unsaved, your will is definitely the will of the flesh is it not? You cannot be born by the will of the flesh. I do not find this to be a tragedy but rather a testimony of the enormity of God’s grace.James

This just came to mind;Eze 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: Eze 11:20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.Would only add, notice the "I"

Would only add, notice the "I"Noted sir! And underlined, and bookmarked... :-)

This verse does not say 'if I am Christ's I have His Spirit', it says 'if I have His Spirit I am Christs'. I must confess that, whilst I have not yet made up my mind on the key issue covered by this thread, I am a pedant and as such must point out the logical error in what you have said. What Paul says is 'If I do not have His Spirit I am not Christ's.' This is logically equivalent to the statement 'If I am Christ's then I have His Spirit' and not the other way around. You may not believe me about that, so I shall try to illustrate what I mean with the following discussion. We know that elephants are mammals. So the statement 'anything that is an elephant is a mammal' is true. Now this is logically equivalent to the statement 'anything that is not a mammal is not an elephant', which I am sure you would agree is also true. Note the change of order. Now consider the statement 'anything that is not an elephant is not a mammal'. That is certainly not true! For example, you are not an elephant but you are a mammal. Similarly, the logically equivalent statement 'anything that is a mammal is an elephant' is false.The question to ask here is not; "am I Christ's, because if so I have His Spirit"but"do I have His Spirit, because if so I am His'The question to ask is in fact "Do I have His Spirit, because if not I am not His". Note the totally different meaning.I must apologise for labouring the point, but I hope it has become clear that what Paul said was the same as "If you are Christ's then you have His Spirit", and not the other way around. Note that this does not imply a causal link.sfwc

Fellow pedantI hope that I do not come of as offensive but, in my own opinion, there is an error in your parallel. Well the analogy you have drawn is conveniently manipulated to fit your precepts. The initial statement has as its protagonist, the Spirit and not Christ (I am by no means saying that this is the divine order, but it is the order in this particular verse). Your second statement has as its protagonist, Christ. Essentially these two statements are different.What Paul says is 'If I do not have His Spirit I am not Christ's.' This is logically equivalent to the statement 'If I have his Spirit I am of Christ’.I am weary however of “logical” discussions in spiritual matters. Let us remember that the above statement is not a definition, but it is an aspect of being of Christ. Just as when it says, “God is love” this is not a definition, if it were we could simply reverse the order (love is God) and the meaning would be unchanged. This is not the case. Reversals are only completely true in absolute definitions and there are very few of those (if any) in the bible. James

I am weary however of “logical” discussions in spiritual matters.Noted sir! And underlined, and bookmarked... And a hearty amen! :-P

I am weary however of “logical” discussions in spiritual matters. Let us remember that the above statement is not a definition, but it is an aspect of being of Christ. Just as when it says, “God is love” this is not a definition, if it were we could simply reverse the order (love is God) and the meaning would be unchanged. This is not the case. Reversals are only completely true in absolute definitions and there are very few of those (if any) in the bible.Me too. and this logic tutorial above is sound as far as I can see. However the phrase God is love, is non-negotiable term; it is absolute and will accept no tweaking. What about 'if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His'? The underlined word is an emphatic pronoun. This is a very clear way of drawing attention to the person in question. Is it the equivalent of saying 'if any person does not have the Spirit of Christ, that very man is not His'. What can this mean other than what it says?I understand your strict logical thought flow here, but if we have a clear statement that "x minus 'having the Spirit' does not equal Christ's". I hope this does not offend. I know God cannot be reduced to a formula, I am just trying to understand the logic behind your thoughts.Now with that equation it is true that I cannot properly turn it into a positive statement and be logically watertight. It is logically possible, just in our reasoning, that it might still be true that someone might have the Spirit and still not be Christ's. (WHOA!!! I am not saying I believe that, just that it could be a possibility from the logic) It might be possible so to be safe I'll stick with the simple Biblical statement. [i]if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is not His[/u]How about a definition for 'His'? and, while we are here, a definition 'having the Spirit'?

Perhaps we should start be asking ourselves what are the objective facts concerning the baptism of the Holy Spirit. In his first sermon, Peter said this, "This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. (Acts 2:32-33)This passage says that the basis on which the Spirit was shed forth was the exaltation of Jesus to the right hand of God. Jesus is glorified, therefore the Spirit is shed forth. Jesus died on the cross, I have forgiveness of sin. Jesus rose from the dead, I have new life. Jesus is exalted in heaven, I have the Spirit shed forth. All is because of Him.We receive the forgiveness of sins by faith, and in the same way we receive the Holy Spirit. Is it possible that a child of God's sins are not forgiven by the blood of the Lamb? Therefore, is it possible that the Lamb has been glorified and God's child has not received the Holy Spirit?Those are the objective facts. What we all want to know is how does that become subjective experience?In Christ,Ron

Wow, in love I say, "Well said!". I was going to reply on the same vein but what you have said here is a vital biblical principle. Well done.

In talking about the baptism of the Holy Spirit I believe it is necessary to differentiate between being born of the Spirit of God (born again) and therefore "having the Spirit of Christ" indwelling us, and being baptized in the Spirit of God. Every true believer has the Holy Spirit inside of them "as a deposit gauanteeing what is to come" but not all are filled or baptized with the Spirit; there is definitely a difference.For someone to say that we need to be baptized in the Holy Spirit to be saved is an error and for someone to say that we are automatically baptized in the Holy Spirit when we are saved is also an error. Jesus is a great example. He was conceived of the Holy Spirit in the virgin Mary and then later when he started his ministry he was endued with the power of the Holy Spirit, symbolyzing the baptism in the Holy Spirit.I hope this helpes in this discussionIn Christ, Jake Kail

I understand your strict logical thought flow here, but if we have a clear statement that"x minus 'having the Spirit' does not equal Christ's". I hope this does not offend. I know God cannot be reduced to a formula, I am just trying to understand the logic behind your thoughts.PhilologosI see exactly what you are saying sir and perhaps you will find my next statement amusing but maybe before we proceed with definitions, a definition of a definition is in order. I am not just trying to stir up controversy and a meaningless play on words but I think that we cannot proceed if our very definition of a definition does not line up.Let us take the example already given. An elephant is a mammal. The reason this is not an absolute definition is, a mammal is not necessarily an elephant. Perhaps one-step better would be, “an elephant is a 5 ton mammal with tusks and a trunk”. This is agreeable in that a 5-ton mammal with tusks and a trunk is in fact an elephant. This is indisputable but it is still not an absolute definition because it excludes elephants of a different weight (for not all elephants weigh 5-tons). We can see that the description is absolute but it is not absolute as a definition. God is love is an absolute description of God but it is not an absolute definition because it negate the other aspects of God. God does in fact hate some things and has no love for them, this does not fit our definition of God, but it does fit our description. I hope you see what I mean. At school we were taught that the only absolute science is mathematics, then a step after that is physics, then chemistry, the biology, the geography. This is because the more complex a subject is the less absolute its definition is. Spiritual subjects are the most complex of all and to come up with definitions for them is quite erroneous (in my opinion). James

I must in good concience state at this point that what is said here may seem to be logical from your point of view but you have atempted to prove 3 biblical principles here by this one verse as proof but this verse does not give support for any of these 3...1) Jesus died on the cross, I have forgiveness of sin2) Jesus rose from the dead, I have new life3) Jesus is exalted in heaven, I have the Spirit shed forth. All is because of Him. I repeat that you cannot prove any of the three Godly and very spiritual priniples with this verse nor can you define your oringinal statement,"Perhaps we should start be asking ourselves what are the objective facts concerning the baptism of the Holy Spirit." I am interested in hearing God's thoughts and your on this matter but this verse I feel is a poor support from the way you've interpreted it. In Love. William

JKail wrote:In talking about the baptism of the Holy Spirit I believe it is necessary to differentiate between being born of the Spirit of God (born again) and therefore "having the Spirit of Christ" indwelling us, and being baptized in the Spirit of God. Every true believer has the Holy Spirit inside of them "as a deposit gauanteeing what is to come" but not all are filled or baptized with the Spirit; there is definitely a difference.For someone to say that we need to be baptized in the Holy Spirit to be saved is an error and for someone to say that we are automatically baptized in the Holy Spirit when we are saved is also an error. Jesus is a great example. He was conceived of the Holy Spirit in the virgin Mary and then later when he started his ministry he was endued with the power of the Holy Spirit, symbolyzing the baptism in the Holy Spirit. Your thoughs are good for this dicussion, I would ask that you would use biblical reference to support your ideas to help us all understand what you are saying. William