Questions and Discussions regarding the End Times

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SimpleLiving Apr 4, 2012

Another thread got me thinking about the pre and post-tribulation rapture theories. Through my own studies, I lean quite heavily towards a pre-tribulation rapture. Naturally, since God has not seen fit to clear up this mystery, with certainty, for us, this leaves room for thoughtful and sincere discussions for those on both sides. Also for those who are undecided, new to the faith or just curious.

Let me emphatically state that this is NOT meant to be a debate thread. If it turns into one, I hope the moderators will promptly lock this thread. I'm starting this thread because I have SINCERE questions for post-tribulation rapture believers that I don't understand. I'd like this thread to be a place for sincere, loving, God-honoring, truth seeking discussions for ANYONE who has ANY sincere questions about the last days, the rapture, the end times, the tribulation period, etc., NO attacks. Let's respect each other's opinions as we would like our own opinions respected. I'm not talking about being politically correct when I say that. I'm talking about being Christ-like.

I'll start with my questions in the next post...

S

SimpleLiving Apr 4, 2012

Here are some questions for those who lean towards a post-tribulation rapture.

1. If you believe we will be going through the tribulation period, are you personally doing anything to prepare for that time? Meaning, are you storing food, water, and other provisions? Do you have a different location you'll be heading to? If not, why not? I would think it would be wise to store food, water, medications, etc., Granted, my trust is in the Lord alone but it would seem to be wisdom to prepare at some level.

2. What is the point, or purpose, of being raptured with Christ (in the clouds) at the end of the tribulation period only to immediately return with Him for His Second Coming (physically on the Mount of Olives)? I don't understand what the purpose of the up and down would be.

3. A) The Bible is our instruction book for life. There are teachings and instructions throughout the Bible for God's people. Yet, I don't see any in the book of Revelation. What is the belief of post-tribbers for why God doesn't lay out His plan (or instructions) for believers during the most difficult and horrific time in history?

B) What are your thoughts on the Book of Enoch? I know many claim it to be fake or not really written by Enoch. Many claim it has nuggets of truth but are skeptical of it altogether. However, it does seem to have instructions for those living during the time of the tribulation period. This, to me, would give more credence to the post-tribulation theory. It would also answer part A of this question as to why there aren't any instructions for Christians in the Bible for living through the tribulation period.

T

TrueWitness Apr 4, 2012

SimpleLiving asked:

2. What is the point, or purpose, of being raptured with Christ (in the clouds) at the end of the tribulation period only to immediately return with Him for His Second Coming (physically on the Mount of Olives)? I don't understand what the purpose of the up and down would be.

ANSWER: It might have something to do with the fact that the Lord will destroy his enemies fighting against him here on Earth by a "Sword" proceeding out of His mouth. So it might be wise for Christians alive at the moment of the Lord's coming to be behind the Lord (literally and physically) when the destruction of the ungodly occurs. After the wicked are slaughtered, then it will presumably be safe to come back down to the Earth with the Lord.

S

savannah Apr 4, 2012

Quest. 1. "If you believe we will be going through the tribulation period, are you personally doing anything to prepare for that time?"

Those who were about to go through the 'tribulation period' as you put it above,were told precisely what to do to prepare for that time. Read Jesus' words for yourself:

Matthew 24:15-25 When therefore ye shall see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoever readeth, let him understand,) Then let them who are in Judea flee to the mountains: Let him who is on the house-top not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him who is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe to them that are with child, and to them that nurse infants in those days! But pray ye that your flight may not be in the winter, neither on the sabbath: For then shall be great tribulation, such as hath not been since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there would no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For false Christs will arise, and false prophets, and will show great signs and wonders; so that, if it were possible, they would deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before.

1. Flee to the mountains
2. Pray
3. Do not believe reports about false Christs

Those who were His heeded His Word and escaped from the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. They believed Jesus' Prophetic Word when He told them before. Read again:

Luke 21:20-24 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that its desolation is nigh. Then let them who are in Judea flee to the mountains; and let them who are in the midst of it depart from it; and let not them that are in the countries enter into it. For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe to them that are with child, and to them that nurse infants in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles shall be fulfilled.

Jerusalem's desolation came with Rome's armies in 70AD just as Jesus prophesied.

The historians such as Eusebius,Josephus,Schaaf and others make it abundantly clear as to the historicity of this prophecy being fulfilled to the minutest descriptive detail.

Quest. 2. "There are teachings and instructions throughout the Bible for God's people. Yet, I don't see any in the book of Revelation."

Rev. 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia; to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamos, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.

Rev. 2:1,5 To the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; Remember therefore from whence thou hast fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come to thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of its place, except thou repent.

Rev 2:8,10 And to the angel of the church in Smyrna, write; These things saith the first and the last, who was dead, and is alive; Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer. Behold, the devil will cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days. Be thou faithful to death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

You may read for yourself further instructions given in Chapters 2 and 3.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth firm, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Rev. 9:3,4 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men who have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

Rev. 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

Peoples foreheads in Revelation are sign-ificant!

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev. 7:14 And I said to him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they who came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Indeed the book of Revelation is prophetic!

Thanks be to God that He is Faithful, and comforted His people in the first century through John the apostle by...

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him, to show to his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel to his servant John: Who bore testimony of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. Rev. 1:1-3

These things would shortly come to pass and the time was at hand for the Great Tribulation and desolation/destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD.

Reconsider what you've been taught and bear in mind the context of all of the above. What time is it? It's certainly not time to debate! It's time to get busy about our Father's business. It's time to get on our knees before God and pray for His Spirit to teach us His Word,and that we enter not into temptation.

Rev. 22:6,7,16 And he said to me, These sayings are faithful and true. And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to show to his servants the things which must shortly be done. Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book. I Jesus have sent my angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning-star.

The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen. Rev 22:21

S

Sidewalk Apr 4, 2012

For me, the nature of "the rapture" has a lot to do with how I see end time issues. Jesus told the disciples to pray that God's will should be done on the earth as it is in heaven. He told them to pray for it, but we don't want to do that. We want to pray other stuff.
Paul said the hope of glory was Christ in you. Does it matter where we are geographically for that?
Jesus said He would prepare a place so that where He is, we would be also. Does that mean we will live in the same heavenly neighborhood, or does it mean we will be glorified saints who are in the exact image of our savior- living in what He demonstrated in His transfiguration?

Romans 8 suggests that the earth itself will be delivered from it's bondage to decay into the glorious liberty of the children of God. Psalm 149 says His faithful ones get to be those who get it done.

Somehow, floating off into space seems to violate the reasonableness of the gospel of salvation and restoration. There is nothing in the prophetic stream to suggest this.

Christianity is personal relationship with the Eternal God, and salvation is a Person, not a system of doctrines. Rapture is the explosive melding of our person with Jesus Christ Himself, our mortality dissolving into a body of glory, the very image of the Son of God.

Going up, going down- what does it matter? My heart longs to see the corruption in the world destroyed, the will of God be done on earth as it is in heaven.

That's my hope for the end times.

sermonindex Apr 4, 2012

Hi SimpleLiving. I have these quotes from some of the ECFs and wondered if any of these would answer any of your questions.

Blessings!

Justin Martyr (A.D. 110-165)

"Two advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonored, and crucified; but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians, ... Now it is evident that no one can terrify or subdue us who have believed in Jesus over all the world. For it is plain that, though beheaded, and crucified, and thrown to wild beasts, and chains, and fire, and all other kinds of torture, we do not give up our confession; but the more such things happen, the more do others and in larger numbers become faithful, and worshippers of God through the name of Jesus." [Dialog with Trypho, CX]

Irenaeus: Discipled by Polycarp who was discipled by John. (AD. 120-202)

"Moreover, another danger, by no means trifling, shall overtake those who falsely presume that they know the name of Antichrist. For if these men assume one [number], when this [Antichrist] shall come having another, they will be easily led away by him, as supposing him not to be the expected one, who must be guarded against. These men, therefore, ought to learn [what really is the state of the case], and go back to the true number of the name, that they be not reckoned among false prophets. But, knowing the sure number declared by Scripture, that is, six hundred sixty and six, let them await, in the first place, the division of the kingdom into ten; then, in the next place, when these kings are reigning, and beginning to set their affairs in order, and advance their kingdom, [let them learn] to acknowledge that he who shall come claiming the kingdom for himself, and shall terrify those men of whom we have been speaking, having a name containing the aforesaid number, is truly the abomination of desolation. ... It is therefore more certain, and less hazardous, to await the fulfillment of the prophecy, than to be making surmises, and casting about for any names that may present themselves, inasmuch as many names can be found possessing the number mentioned; and the same question will, after all, remain unsolved. ... But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this "man" comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is: ... But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this "man" and those who follow "him" into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." [Irenaeus: Against Heresies, Book V, XXX]

" an apostate and a robber, is anxious to be adored as God; and that, although a mere slave, he wishes himself to be proclaimed as a king. For he being endued with all the power of the devil, shall come, not as a righteous king, nor a legitimate king in subjection to God, but an impious, unjust, and lawless 'one'; as an apostate, iniquitous, and murderous, as a robber, concentrating in himself satanic apostasy, and seeking aside idols to persuade that he himself is God raising up himself as the only idol, having in himself the multifarious errors of the other idols. This he does, in order that they who do worship the devil by means of many abominations, may serve himself by this one idol, of whom the apostle thus speaks in the second Epistle to the Thessalonians."

"And there is therefore in this beast, when he ( Antichrist ) comes, a recapitulation made of all sorts of iniquity and of every deceit, in order that all apostate power, flowing into and being shut up in him, may be sent into the furnace of fire...since he sums up in his own person all the commixture of wickedness which took place previous to the deluge, due to the apostasy of the angels."

"In a still clearer light has John, in the Apocalypse, indicated to the Lord’s disciples what shall happen in the last times, and concerning the ten kings who shall then arise...These have one mind, and give their strength and power to the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them, because He is the Lord of lords, and King of kings...And they (Ten Kings) shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord.” [Against Heresies V, XXVI, 1]

"But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware of who he is:...But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple in Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that “many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.” [Against Heresies V, XXX, 2, 4]

"For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of the Antichrist, and the destruction of nations under his rule; in (the times of) which (resurrection) the righteous shall reign on the earth...and those whom the Lord shall find in the flesh, awaiting Him from heaven, and who have suffered tribulation, as well as escaped the hands of the Wicked 'one' (Antichrist)." [Against Heresies V, XXXV, 1]

Hippolytus: Bishop of Portus, was a disciple of Irenaeus who was discipled by Polycarp who was discipled from John.(AD. 170-236)

"As these things, then, are in the future, and as the ten toes of the image are equivalent to (so many) democracies, and the ten horns of the fourth beast are distributed over ten kingdoms, let us look at the subject a little more closely, and consider these matters as in the clear light of a personal survey. The golden head of the image and the lioness denoted the Babylonians; the shoulders and arms of silver, and the bear, represented the Persians and Medes; the belly and thighs of brass, and the leopard, meant the Greeks, who held the sovereignty from Alexander’s time; the legs of iron, and the beast dreadful and terrible, expressed the Romans, who hold the sovereignty at present; the toes of the feet which were part clay and part iron, and the ten horns, were emblems of the kingdoms that are yet to rise; the other little horn that grows up among them meant the Antichrist in their midst; the stone that smites the earth and brings judgment upon the world was Christ." [Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 27,28]

It is proper that we take the Holy Scriptures themselves in hand, and find out from them what, and of what manner, the coming of Antichrist is; on what occasion and at what time that impious one shall be revealed; and whence and from what tribe (he shall come); and what his name is, which is indicated by the number in Scripture; and how he shall work error among the people, gathering them from the ends of the earth; and (how) he shall stir up tribulation and persecution against the saints; and how he shall glorify himself as God; and what his end shall be; and how the sudden appearing of the Lord shall be revealed from heaven; and what the conflagration of the whole world shall be; and what the glorious and heavenly kingdom of the saints is to be, when they reign together with Christ; and what the punishment of the wicked by fire...With respect to his name, it is not in our power to explain it exactly, as the blessed John understood it and was instructed about it, but only to give a conjectural account of it; for when he appears, the blessed one will show us what we seek to know... Wherefore we ought neither to give it out as if this were certainly his name, nor again ignore the fact that he may not otherwise be designated. But having the mystery of God in our heart, we ought in fear to keep faithfully what has been told us by blessed prophets, in order that when those things come to pass, we may be prepared for them, and not be deceived. For when the times advance, he too, of whom these things are said, will be manifest...Now concerning the tribulation of the persecution which is to fall upon the Church from the adversary, John also speaks thus, "And I saw a great and wondrous sign in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, ... And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent”...That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days (the half of the week) during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church.... These things then, being come to pass, beloved, and the one week being divided into two parts, and the abomination of desolation being manifested then, and the two prophets and forerunners of the Lord having finished their course, and the whole world finally approaching the consummation, what remains but the coming of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ from heaven, for whom we have looked in hope." [Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 5, 50, 60, 61, 64]

"on account of his tyranny and violence. For the deceiver seeks to liken himself in all things to the Son of God. Christ is a lion, so Antichrist is also a lion; Christ is a king, so Antichrist is also a king. The Savior was manifested as a lamb; so he too in like manner, will appear as a lamb, though within he is a wolf. The Savior came into the world in the circumcision, and he will come in the same manner. The Lord sent apostles among all the nations, and he in like manner will send false apostles. The Savior gathered together the sheep that were scattered abroad, and he in like manner will bring together a people that is scattered abroad. The Lord gave a seal to those who believed on Him; and he will give one in like manner. The Savior appeared in the form of man, and he too will come in the form of a man. The Savior raised up and showed His holy flesh like a temple, and he will raise a temple of stone in Jerusalem."

"He ( Antichrist )will be harsh, severe, passionate, wrathful, terrible, inconstant, dread, morose, hateful, abominable, savage, vengeful, iniquitous. And, bent on casting the whole race of men into the pit of perdition, he will multiply false signs."

“When the times are fulfilled, and the ten horns spring from the beast in the last (times), then Antichrist will appear among them. When he makes war against the saints, and persecutes them, then may we expect the manifestation of the Lord from heaven. [Fragments from Commentaries, II, 7]

"shall be sent through every city and country to destroy the faithful; and the saints shall travel from the west to the east, and shall be driven in persecution from the east to the south, while others shall conceal themselves in the mountains and caves; and the abomination shall war against them everywhere, and shall cut them off by the sea and by land by his decree, and shall endeavor by every means to destroy them out of the world; and they shall not be able any longer to sell their own property, nor to buy from strangers, unless one keeps and carries with him the name of the beast, or bears its mark upon his forehead. For then they shall all be driven out from place to place, and dragged from their own homes and haled into prison, and punished with all manner of punishment, and cast out from the whole world." These shall awake to everlasting life."

Tertullian (c. 160 - 225)

“...that the city of fornication may receive from the ten kings its deserved doom, and that the beast Antichrist, with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God...Since, then, the Scriptures both indicate the stages of the last times, and concentrate on the harvest of the Christian hope in the very end of the world ...Now the privilege of this favor (the resurrection) awaits those who shall at the coming of the Lord be found in the flesh, and who shall, owing to the oppressions of the time of Antichrist, deserve by an instantaneous death, which is accomplished by a sudden change, to become qualified to join the rising saints...” [On the Resurrection of the Flesh, XXV, 7 and XLI]

Lactantius (260-330)

"He ( Antichrist ) shall harass the word with an intolerable rule; shall mingle things divine and human; shall contrive things impious to relate, and detestable; shall meditate new designs in his breast, that he may establish the government for himself; he will change the laws, and appoint his own; he ( Antichrist )will contaminate, plunder, spoil, and put to death."

R

roadsign Apr 4, 2012

this is NOT meant to be a debate thread

But, when you put forth two conflicting “sides” for discussion you will indeed have debate! Of course debate can be fruitful.

both sides

Speaking of “both” sides, Jesus himself at times was presented with the “dilemma” of two irreconcilable sides. For example once someone said to him:

“Jesus, who sinned, the blind man OR his parents? Jesus we offer you only these two options – two boxes. Tick one!”

Jesus, as we know, did not play the rules - not according to their devised categories.

The popular pre/post trib debate has two categories which cannot be reconciled. You can’t ever have Christians agree ….. at least as long as all agree that there is a future tribulation period. In the other thread some of us offered the possibility that the tribulation imageries in Revelation could be viewed as a composite portrait of all the horrendous suffering among God’s people throughout the ages. However, that suggestion did not “win”. So, we will have to settle with two opposing sides. And the best we can do is to agree to disagree. Meanwhile the Bible becomes a chess board full of pawns to strategically maneuver in our game.

Perhaps it’s time to push the “Pause” button. Why not simply reflect on what is happening in the ongoing eschatological focus? I offer some observations:

1) The protagonist in this futurist drama we are trying to script typically becomes the beloved Number or Event. And jesus christ becomes marginalized as a mere marker of time.

2) Our eschatological focus tends to be de-humanizing. People, as in the beloved "cloud of witnesses" with whom we are united become marginalized, or are designated as objects - categories – something like our statistics graphs. And the sacred elements are now the symbolisms.

3) The purpose for this literature is lost, along with any thoughts about the author, divine inspirer, or recipients.

4) Small obscure details stay in the spotlight, while the bigger stronger points drift into the shadows.

What happens if we put the first three chapters of Revelation back into the debate? We find out who the letter was intended for: the seven churches. And we find out what was going on with them. Ex: “You have lost your first love.” … etc….

So, for starts, if our eschatological interpretations fail to point God’s people back to their “First Love” – it’s time to get off this treadmill and reflect on a more pressing concern immersed beneath our preoccupation with our two most popular designated categories. ...

..... lest the devil becomes the ultimate winner.

The question: How would Revelation have encouraged the Seven Churches to persevere in the faith?

Diane

sermonindex Apr 4, 2012

Let me emphatically state that this is NOT meant to be a debate thread. If it turns into one, I hope the moderators will promptly lock this thread.

lol.... this is like saying "Mitt Romney or Barrak Obama? Discuss!"

It's going to be a debate, there is no way around it. But debates dont have to be fights. I've learned the most and grown the most by debating the Word of God. The key is that we all have to be teachable.

On some things I am rock solid, but on most things I am open to other ideas. I think we all have to be willing to learn from one other and at least attempt to see things thru someone else's eyes. Doesnt mean we have to end up agreeing with them... but dialogue is GOOD.

Krispy

PS: I vote for Mustangs, guitar solos, the white sandy beaches of Oahu, Hawaii (was just there a couple months ago!) sound teaching, the love of my woman... and a pre-trib rapture. (but if it's post-trib I am cool with that too)

L

Lysa Apr 4, 2012

You'll get no debate from me, brother!! And these answers are not all inclusive.

SimpleLiving asked:
1. If you believe we will be going through the tribulation period, are you personally doing anything to prepare for that time? Meaning, are you storing food, water, and other provisions?

No and no. I do not believe we are to be prepared physically more than we are spiritually. So what if we have a forest of food and water if we turn on our Christian brothers and sisters.

SimpleLiving asked:
1b. Do you have a different location you'll be heading to? If not, why not? I would think it would be wise to store food, water, medications, etc., Granted, my trust is in the Lord alone but it would seem to be wisdom to prepare at some level.

Another location? I guess there are some who have another location but I do not and I feel I must ask... If all the Christians go to another location, who will be left to minister to those who can’t leave and who will need ministering too? I do believe in asking God to stop the sun and moon so we can win the battle!! (huge friendly grin)

If the Holy Spirit instructs me to leave then I will leave. I understand Jesus’ instruction in Matt 24 was specifically for the Jews during the time of Titus’ invasion of Jerusalem. Titus attacked the city and withdrew for a little time (a God thing); allowing the Jews who believed what Christ spoke to flee to the mountains and then when Titus attacked again and overrun the city, those who stayed were murdered and the city leveled.

I’d like to add one more thing, Jesus said to not to return to get anything but to flee with what was on their back and they did. I believe that that same faith would be required of us as well. If some people have the ability and means to prepare that is awesome and I hope they have a heart to share with those who didn’t.

SimpleLiving asked:
2. What is the point, or purpose, of being raptured with Christ (in the clouds) at the end of the tribulation period only to immediately return with Him for His Second Coming (physically on the Mount of Olives)? I don't understand what the purpose of the up and down would be.

The purpose I see (in my limited human ability) is that we come back victorious ready to rule and reign 1000 years! Please know that I’m not going to pretend to understand it all either, my friend; but I do follow Rev 20 very closely. I believe in being resurrected more than I do ‘raptured.’

SimpleLiving asked:
3. A) The Bible is our instruction book for life. There are teachings and instructions throughout the Bible for God's people. Yet, I don't see any in the book of Revelation. What is the belief of post-tribbers for why God doesn't lay out His plan (or instructions) for believers during the most difficult and horrific time in history?

I see many warnings (thus instructions) throughout the book of Revelation!

SimpleLiving asked:
B) What are your thoughts on the Book of Enoch? I know many claim it to be fake or not really written by Enoch.

I have never read it so I cannot say.

Personally, I think you are leaving out some questions (in my humble opinion!), I think you should also be asking why we don’t believe in the pre-trib rapture of the church. You will get lots of good answers but this is your thread so I won't add anymore!!

God bless you for the good dialogue!!
Lisa

sermonindex Apr 4, 2012

SimpleLiving asked:

Here are some questions for those who lean towards a post-tribulation rapture.

The only thing he asked is for those who lean towards post-trib to reply.

So who's stirring it up?

Only those who did not honor his request.

Seems simple enough to see how this is gone off already.

Sorry that we can't ask questions to a specific group without the thread being thrown already by those that can't honor the person's simple questions from the stand-point that he requested.

I don't believe he nor those who would honor his request have lost their first love - but I think it would be more loving to just stick to his question and from those that he requested opinions from.

I prefer men of GOD from the past to answer men for me, where possible.

Peace and hope there's no condemnation for the one that asked the question.

GOD Bless!

L

Lysa Apr 5, 2012

SimpleLiving,

I'm not trying to force this on you but I ran across this book this morning and thought about you. I did not know if you would be interested. The year interested me! I downloaded it (it's in the public domain) and will read it.

THE HOPE OF CHRIST'S SECOND COMING by SAMUEL TREGELLES of the Plymouth Brethren Movement in London; he rejected Darby's secret rapture theory in 1864!!

http://www.scribd.com/doc/74089858/THE-HOPE-OF-CHRIST-S-SECOND-COMING-SAMUEL-TREGELLES-1886-REPRINT-OF-THE-1864-EDITION

God bless,
Lisa

R

roadsign Apr 5, 2012

this is gone off already.

It also seems that I am an accomplice in this derailment. However, I would like to honour SimpleLiving’s desire that this not be a debate - and that’s not too likely with two irreconcilable view points. Still, the thread title leaves room for discussion – and there is a possibility for much fruitfulness. After all Revelation offers a blessing to those who read it. Why stop before we have tapped the blessing!

SimpleLiving, What about a different focus to your excellent and fine topic: end times. What about beginning with the seven churches, how in barely a generation, most of them were straying from Christ? This tendency to drift is evident throughout the church age – and still is. Revelation is surely relevant in reviving our church today.

We here know about the pre/post oppositional positions, but what about these oppositional positions regarding apocalyptic literature:

1) Get pre-occupied with the imageries. vs
2) Ignore the literature entirely because the imageries are too confusing.

What a tragedy! The value of Revelation gets lost to the church when these two options predominate. Two “boxes. Tick one!

How can we avoid either, and restore Revelation's blessing in a way that helps strengthen God’s people today?

What about taking this approach?

Diane

P

pilgrim777 Apr 5, 2012

As someone that used to believe in pre-wrath rapture, here is how I would have answered those questions.

1. Would not have prepared physically as God did not lead me in that way. Not to say that there are not endtime Joseph's that He is raising up. I was only led to prepare spiritually only and trust God. This belief has not changed. No matter what one believes this is our walk, anyway. Prepare spiritually by yielding to the Holy Spirit and abiding in Christ each day.

2. Scriptures say that we are not appointed unto wrath but we are certainly promised tribulation. So, I believed that God would rescue us from His wrath but not necessarily men's persecutions.

3. His plan is what His plan has always been for those that have gone through horrible persecutions and tribulations through the centuries. Abide in Him. Don't fear those that can kill the body but not the soul. Entrust yourself to Him.

Pilgrim

sermonindex Apr 5, 2012

Only TIME will help alter our belief.

Lets say we are convinced that Jesus will come back in our lifetime. We've convinced thousands in our lifetime that Jesus would come back in our lifetime. We were very young when we started believing that and now we are very old and we are nearing that place where all men go. By this time we would have already begun rethinking about the stand that we had all our lives. We lived our course and now were dead and Christ had not yet come in what we had believed that He would. Now that we are dead, we'll be standing there before the thousands whom we lied to all our lives. Saved yes, but humiliated.

There are so many disappointed people, a great multitude of people that believed that Christ would come in their lifetime starting back in the day when all this seemed to have started in the 1800's. Before that time Christians were more concerned about the gospel, holy living, and being right with God than the "last days". Whenever bad things happen in the world, we automatically assume that Christ is coming. I think it's human nature to think that way. Whenever I see a disaster I see it as God going about His business judging a nation or blessing a people or nation. To me, it's just the daily workings of His power in the lives of men that He has been doing since the dawn of time.

Consider that famous city Pompeii. It was a metropolitan resort city. It was where the rich and famous dwelt. Kings and statesmen visited as a retreat. But then a black cloud came over the horizon, then ash that was thick and blinding, "some" people left, others just closed their doors and windows waiting for it to pass. Then the rumblings and finally the lava. A whole city was wiped out within a short period of time and if we were Christians living in that day and in that city, wouldn't we think that we were living in the last days? Be honest, picture yourself in that day being there, you would think that the Lord was coming back. Anyone in their right mind would. But things settled down, we'd moved to the next town or city and started life anew. When WWII was in the throes of war, when Europe was being almost completely controlled by an Anti-Christ nut, wouldn't you and I living in that day would have thought that Jesus was coming back at any moment? Don't kid yourself, we would have.

The "last days" to me is a like a Christian mystical machine that excites the imagination of believers as it would anyone wanting to know about the unknown. The interest is huge and even non Christians love it because anything that is unknown is exciting. Hollywood has put out movies based on some biblical hints, there is money in it. That is why the astrology, horoscopes and even the bible is big money. People use the bible like a horoscope, looking for their "word" for the day to see what kind of a day they will have.

The Rapture is not a delight to me. It's an unknown event wrapped up in confusing debates on where it's to be placed. People have argued over it, argued over the tribulation and I have known groups tearing their congregations apart because they didn't agree on their position, sounds silly don't it? I think it's very silly to bitterly depart from fellowshipping with others based on ones position on when the tribulation, wrath and the rapture is supposed to occur.

I will take the words of Paul and use them here,

"Are ye not carnal?"

G

ginnyrose Apr 5, 2012

As one who loves the book of Revelation and who believes the Christian will experience tribulation I do have ideas to your questions, but for lack of time [now] I will answer #3:

______________________________________________________________
QUOTE:
"3. A) The Bible is our instruction book for life. There are teachings and instructions throughout the Bible for God's people. Yet, I don't see any in the book of Revelation. What is the belief of post-tribbers for why God doesn't lay out His plan (or instructions) for believers during the most difficult and horrific time in history?"
____________________________________________________________

Revelation speaks much of distress and calamity caused by the devil working to dethrone his arch-enemy, Jesus. The story is that Jesus is the victor. Jesus' children will get caught in this crossfire and become victims. The other point is that God will make life so hard for the ungodly because their security has been threatened or lost and will look to God for their redemption.

On the philosophical level: would you know there are people who believe they can through political means usher in the millennium? It cannot be done. Regardless where you come out on on the pre-trib, post-trib issue, life will be hard: you may get killed, so get ready for it.

Oh, and there are the letters to the churches - lots of practical advice there..read it, study it, internalize it and where do you come out at? The challenges, warnings, instructions is not only for a few local churches in existence then but for us today, as well. It also teaches one a lot about the nature of God/Jesus, his mercy, his wrath, his love...

This is the practical lesson, IMHO.

sermonindex Apr 5, 2012

Seems to me I heard somewhere that we are to LOVE HIS APPEARING. Not debate it. As for how Christ followers are to live during the tribulation, look to the persecuted in N. Korea or China or Eritrea. There you will will find your answer.

Caps were for emphasis only. No yelling.

sermonindex Apr 5, 2012

Dian said

How can we avoid either, and restore Revelation's blessing in a way that helps strengthen God’s people today?

Diane I believe the only way that can be accomplished if we look at the book of Revelation the same way John was seeing it, in the Spirit.

Sadly, we are taking what was seen in the Spirit, was written down as he was seeing it in the Spirit and interpreting it through world events. We are taking the bible and using the world to answer those questions that itch in our brains and we have division. As soon as anyone of us sees what John sees and then tells the Church, we'll except it because our spirit will bear witness with His Spirit that what is being address is truly His Spirit. Those who will reject do not have His Spirit or too stubborn to receive it at the moment. So far, I have heard from mi-nute sources of interesting interpretation, everything is 99/44 100% pure confusion.

The scriptures was written for the Spiritual minded man, the carnal mind cannot understand anything that is contained in the scripture, he is not subject to it, and rightly so. But we who have the Spirit MUST see the book of Revelation as what it is, 'THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST'. The unveiling of His Person, His power, His Kingdom. What was done, what was going on at the time of John's writing and what will be.

sermonindex Apr 5, 2012

Seems to me I heard somewhere that we are to LOVE HIS APPEARING.

For me, I see His appearing perhaps a bit differently then most. I see this as His appearing in us today. We are praying that Christ be formed in us that we long for revival do we not? This is the appearing that I love and long for. To wait for some future event that may or may never happen in my lifetime is like hoping to win the jackpot in the state lottery. But to hope for His appearing in us, for Him to stand up in the earth in His body is thrilling to say the least. I look to that appearing.

sermonindex Apr 5, 2012

Lisa - Thank you for the book.
Is there any way to download without signing up a membership on Facebook?
I haven't read it yet - but just have kept that page open and will just keep it open and read it as I can. I can keep it open and go on and offline - that's the only thing that I know to do.

Approved, I just wanted to say that we can't form our eschatology by Just reading the Revelation. One must start with the O.T. prophets, then the Gospels, then the Epistles and lastly the Revelation, for any of it to make a bit of sense.
Did you know that there's three times more prophecy about His Second coming than there was for His first advent?
If you read in the order that I gave - you'd see why it's so important to GOD that we have a handle on this topic.
He thinks it's extremely important, by giving these revelations, starting from His Old Testament Prophets in such detail that's it's absolutely Incredible, once you recognise the amount of detail He has given us and why.

GOD Bless!

L

Lysa Apr 5, 2012

Jesus-is-God
Lisa - Thank you for the book.
Is there any way to download without signing up a membership on Facebook?
I haven't read it yet - but just have kept that page open and will just keep it open and read it as I can. I can keep it open and go on and offline - that's the only thing that I know to do.

email me and I will mail it to you. I downloaded the pdf for my kindle.

I'm off to work now but I will get it to you after midnight!!

God bless,
Lisa