Water Baptism

What say ye? Is there ever an allowance to be made for a Christian woman to baptize a new Believer....even a male convert? I find no such case in scripture. So i am against women baptizing, and especially baptizing men. But what if there is no one else available (due to a number of circumstances)? And i really do mean that. I've never encountered this question anywhere before...

Hey Trekker,

Based on your post this might be a helpful question to answer-

What do you believe the specific requirements are to be of one who baptizes another?

In my estimation that question helps to clarify what we actually feel about the topic within our heart. What I am driving at is this.... who of all humanity do you, or we, choose to "ban" from performing baptisms if we do not have an example of them baptizing in scripture? There are no scriptural accounts of American's, Canadians, or the Irish baptizing in scripture. Would they, or any non exampled group, be barred from baptizing then? Is "a scriptural example" the single criteria to use?

Other thoughts... at what age is it then allowable for a person to baptize another? 5...7...12...16...21...35...60... at what age is it then "allowable to baptize" if we need a scriptural example to find it appropriate for them to baptize another?

Is it perhaps wise to look at not only what scriptural examples exist but what prohibitions exist? By that I am asking specifically what groups are EXCLUDED IN SCRIPTURE from baptizing? If scripture does not expressly prohibit a group by age, gender, ethnicity, last name,.....or whatever reason, then do we have the right to impose that limitation if it is not contained expressly within scripture. If scripture does not specifically forbid women, Japanese, caucasians, Native Americans, First Nation Canadians, 16 year olds, people named Harry, or men with flat top hair cuts from baptizing then is it a Biblically safe place to be to add those limitations on our own?

Is placing any additional limitations of those who baptize based on nothing more than our "feeling" on it, or lack of a specific Biblical example of that people group performing baptisms in scripture, a safe ground to stand on?
If the scriptural example of it were the sole criteria then NONE of the previously mentioned people groups could baptize.

In fact if the "scriptural example'' is the criteria for evaluating this question then we should go back and make a list of only those who have specific scriptural examples of performing baptisms. We should then limit all performance of baptisms to that specific people group alone.

However, the other way to approach it is this... all believers are allowed to baptize unless there is a specific scriptural mandate barring them from doing so.

Things to ponder. Blessings!

CAPS were only used to emphasize phases or thoughts. No yelling was intended.

Wow Solomon101 not to puff you up but that was a very insightful post and I appreciated it.

Second I would say that this question is a loaded one at best, and it's this kind of question that many people use to follow up with their opinion because they already have their thoughts in mind and their looking to pick some kind of fight or to teach rather than learn. Those wanting to teach more than learn in a discussion should be avoided because all great teachers are open to learning even if they know it all.

I say this because while I agree with your post 100% I fear it falls on deaf ears, though hope it doesn't. If we need a biblical example we could go as far as saying only those directly converted or affliated with the apostles could baptise.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ frees us from such religious thinking and questions.

God bless you Solomon for that post. I appreciated the answer that the Holy Spirit gave you.

God bless,
Lisa

Hi Trekker,
This a good technical question sort to speak.
.What if it were Philipa rather than Philip who talked to the Eunuch.I think in that case she would not have baptised the Eunuch due Jewish Observance but I dont see any reason that a woman can not baptise a man just as a man can baptise a woman
In general I think We have a very poor record when it comes to water baptism in the sense that we make more of it than the first Christians did,we make a song and dance about it, much more than we were meant to,
Yours Staff

Hi Trekker,

There are records from the earliest generations of Christians where women did baptize women in some places. But this is because of the nature of how new converts were baptized. There was a tradition in some of the early churches where the new convert would present himself or herself nude to be baptized and then would be presented with a robe after the baptism. So naturally they segregated themselves and the women would baptize the women and the men the men.

These baptisms were done privately, usually at midnight, followed by some type of celebration welcoming the new converts.

Solomon, i understand what you are trying to say, but you are forgetting that in the case of gender things are different; man is to be head of the woman, for example, and woman is not to usurp authority over the man nor preach nor teach. Furthermore, there ARE reasons to believe that other Christians of other nations baptized people but there is NO reason to believe that women baptized, mostly because all 12 disciples & apostles were men. God did not choose a single woman to be His disciple. Not because He is sexist, but for reasons concerning enduring great hardship in travel, headship and authority as set up by God in the church, and so forth.

QUOTE: "I think in that case she would not have baptised the Eunuch due Jewish Observance but I dont see any reason that a woman can not baptise a man just as a man can baptise a woman"--STAFF

Thank you staff...I don't know how to articulate this but it is just my gut feeling...a feeling of being repelled at the thought of a woman stepping into the place of spiritual authority and role normally reserved for pastors and conducting baptisms. It just seems innately wrong to me. I don't believe in female pastors; i think the scripture is clear on that and the ones i have met were all apostates, lesbians, and false teachers who were very preoccupied with having a title and position of power/authority. Every time i try to imagine a woman baptizing converts, particularly male, it just seems odd.

QUOTE: "However, the other way to approach it is this... all believers are allowed to baptize unless there is a specific scriptural mandate barring them from doing so."--SOLOMON101

Hmm. You got me thinking here with this comment. That is thought-provoking. However, there is no direct scripture against suicide either, does that make suicide ok?

I won't mind baptizing someone as long as i am not committing sin by doing so. I have been asked by the person (male) to do so. My next concern for that is if i am spiritually mature enough. These are the things which have prevented me from agreeing to doing the baptism and now he has gone 3 years without being baptized because all the pastors and other people we asked to baptize him all made their excuses: they would only do it a certain time of year and a certain time of day--early morning(which he is unable to be there for due to disabling health reasons i wont go into; too long a story). One pastor refused to baptize him because he wants his weekends free to work out in the gym and walk around town, and so on and so forth. No excitement about welcoming a new soul into the Kingdom of God, no. Maybe i will just go ahead and do it in the end just out of sheer frustration...

P.S. The thought of having a female pastor baptize ME would totally repulse me. When i got saved (alone) i went around from church to church seeking someone to baptize me and the first one i tried was a Lutheran church and a male pastor there referred me to their female pastor who sat down with me to discuss it: she told me the church does not believe in baptism by immersion, only by sprinkling. Well i wanted to do it the BIBLICAL way. She next told me she did not even believe in a literal Heaven and Hell! That's when i knew i was out of there. Those people don't even think logically, they are fools and heretics. If there is not a literal Heaven&Hell then Jesus would not have needed to come down here and die on the cross for anyone.

In “I dared to call Him Father”, Bilquis Sheikh testifies how she baptized herself, when the available “believers” failed to see the spiritual significance and urgency for her to be baptized …………… A blessed book to read.

quote-
Hmm. You got me thinking here with this comment. That is thought-provoking. However, there is no direct scripture against suicide either, does that make suicide ok?
end quote-

How about - Thou shalt not kill? Is that not "direct" enough for you?

I've never encountered…
I find no such case…
So i am against…
just my gut feeling….
a feeling of being repelled…
It just seems innately wrong to me…
it just seems odd….

Brother, why so much verbiage that arises from your own center of perspective? I confess, simply by reading your posts, it seems that you are seeking in scripture something far less than it offers you – or rather, that God offers you. You may wish to study the comparison between John’s baptism, and the Spirit’s baptism – and compare that with your expectations of baptism.

Here’s a question: What if you do find just the “right” person to baptize you – the one who does not uproot your “gut feelings” or is not condescending for you? How will that be better for you? Consider when John preached baptism, how repulsive and condescending it was to his listeners. Baptism – in its true function, confronts pride to the core.

It may also be worth considering why your baptism is so contingent on the spiritual qualifications of the baptizer – as you see it. What about 1 Corinthians 1:12-14

"Some of you are saying, “I am a follower of Paul.” Others are saying, “I follow Apollos,” or “I follow Peter,[a]” or “I follow only Christ.”
Has Christ been divided into factions? Was I, Paul, crucified for you? Were any of you baptized in the name of Paul? Of course not! I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius …" NLT

May CHRIST himself be your ultimate baptizer – by the baptism by his fire.

PS EDIT: What about considering the possibility of being a testimony of true humble repentance even to the person whom God may chose as the one to baptize you?

Diane

QUOTE: "How about - Thou shalt not kill? Is that not "direct" enough for you?"--JOCHBAPTIST

Actually no, it's not. Did not David war & kill? Did not Samson kill? Did not Samson also commit (kamikazi style) suicide? So obviously killing is sometimes accepted.

ROADSIGN, Please pay better attention to what you read. I am NOT looking for someone to baptize me. Secondly, the idea of baptizing one's own self is the silliest thing i ever heard, no offense. The whole reason behind baptism is NOT to have a ritual to perform but rather to witness to the world that one has become a Believer. If there is no one around to witness it then what is the point? We are NOT saved by being baptized, for it is not by works, lest any man should boast.

My motives in asking the original question are pure: i am seeking only to obey the Lord and be doctrinally sound.

to witness to the world that one has become a Believer

You’ve raised some questions for me: In scripture how is baptism taught and practiced as a form of testimony to the world? How does our own world see it today – those inside or outside of the church?

Another thought: A missionary friend of mine explained that in her area of ministry, people’s conversion was not taken seriously until they are baptized. Baptism proved their resolve to renounce their past religion. This is when persecution would begin.

But in our culture it seems different. If baptism is a testimony of one’s unquestioned resolve to follow Christ, how is it that so many who have been baptized do not show further evidence in their lives, or they eventually leave the church entirely? Perhaps other actions speak louder as a testimony – like simplifying your life style, your possessions, moving to a poorer district in town, changing your job, friends, etc….. In that way you literally prove that you have washed yourself from a former way of life. Of course, that’s not to deny the ritual of baptism. I just think that in general our churches today would do better to consider more seriously the implications of Christ’s baptism. Instead, the ritual seems often to have greater value in the life of a church.

Not to detract you from your desire to obey God – just to add more food for thought.

Diane

quote-
So obviously killing is sometimes accepted.
end quote-

Murdering someone is different from killing an enemy. King David commited both, but was judged by God for the first mentioned only.

Baptism is an outward declaration of an inward reality, and a Mystery. Never intended as a witness to the world, - where do you get that from? In Acts believers were baptized after they believed, without any witnesses from the world.

Brother, I feel that your "head" is in the way ....

(edit)

sorry

Sister, I feel that your "head" is in the way ....

Phew... that was close. Fortunately I read your take on John Whane...

Diane you wrote:But in our culture it seems different. If baptism is a testimony of one’s unquestioned resolve to follow Christ, how is it that so many who have been baptized do not show further evidence in their lives, or they eventually leave the church entirely?

____________

Very interesting question. I wonder do you think the answer lies in the fact that some churches today spend little time discipling? Some only require you to say a pray and then you are told your saved with little contact from other believers on a daily bases to see if there is fruit produced. I know the first time I was baptized the people involved did not even know me,(literally they didn't know my name even) let alone know anything about my standing with the Lord not surprisingly it would be another 6 years before I truly came to understand what it meant to repent of my sins and surrender my life to JESUS as LORD.

Personally I do think baptism is taken to lightly in some churches today. I feel being baptized has everything to do with obeying and submitting my life unto the LORD JESUS!!

Anyway very thought provoking thought you shared thank you.
God Bless
mj