Justified | SermonIndex

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mguldner Apr 9, 2012

I have thought about this for a while and thought I would share my thoughts and open discussion on it in hopes of learning more.

Justification, I open this not on Spiritual Justification that Christ died providing Justification but rather the worldly justification I find in man and in my own heart to sin. We were all born knowing to some degree right and wrong Christ has written His law on our hearts. We know its wrong to kill because Christ has instilled this in us and we know that it's a wrong thing to kill someone.

SO in order for someone to kill another human being Violates the Conscious God gave. I found that a violation of the conscious is done mainly through justify why at this point in time it is okay to commit such an act.

A man doesn't walk into a store and rob the place without first thinking for whatever reason it is somehow okay for him to do so. Meaning this man has to think for some reason he is entitled to the money the store and owner had worked so hard for. In his mind he has to work up in himself "okay my life is rough, my kids need food, they'll use the money for pointless things anyway," all the way down to, "It's mine to take."

So I found entitlement was another player in this heart of sin. A woman cheats on her husband, why? well the person she's with "gets her" or her husband is abusive and a drunk, so in her mind she is free to go into this new relationship. Justifying sin is dangerous because it to its root is prideful, that somehow this sin isn't as bad as the sin committed against the person.

What is really scary is justifying sin with the Justification of Christ Jesus. It's the most common though and most deadly. The idea that "I can do what I want because Christ died for my sin" I battle this in my heart from time to time, knowing forgive and grace will come if I ask and repent, knowing that God is faithful to forgive us our sins if we confess. Those that use the Grace of God for sin will many times be caught saying "don't judge me, it's not your job" when they are confronted with sin.

Please let me know what you think, what have you found in this topic?

L

Lysa Apr 9, 2012

Justifying sin is dangerous because it to its root is prideful, that somehow this sin isn't as bad as the sin committed against the person.
Those that use the Grace of God for sin will many times be caught saying "don't judge me, it's not your job" when they are confronted with sin

There are soooo many players in this scenario and why someone does what they do. And this is a sly trick of the enemy, brother, to get us to focus on someone else's reasons of justifying; because our job is NOT to root out and accuse why ANOTHER person justifies the new sin or old sin in their life.

This is the crazy thing of it all, Matthew.... our job is to love and pray for them and yet root out all the justification of the sin in OUR OWN LIFE. Human beings can't seem to just stick to themselves, it becomes open season on everyone around them to begin rooting out the sin in everyone's life around them!! That's the enemy destroying relationships.

God bless you brother, stick to yourself and finding out why you do what you are doing and be Christ to those around you.

Lisa

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Sree Apr 9, 2012

I am not saying you are wrong, but I want to balance your argument as well. While Jesus asked us not to Judge one another, Paul asked the Corinthians to put the man out of Church who was sleeping with his Father's wife. Paul rebuked Corinthians for living with 'I care about myself attitude'. Here is the balance, we are not here to Judge anyone as this person is Righteous or this person is going to Hell. But when we see someone deliberately sinning and ignoring the commands of Jesus, it is our responsibility to talk to them and win them for Jesus.

Matthew 18:15-
If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

This is exactly what Paul wanted Corinthians to do.

Personally this is how I draw the line, when I know based on my spirit of discernment that Heart of Brother is good (broken) and he is trying his best to live a Christ like life, I do not look at a person's shortcomings. While if I know that a person is deliberately ignoring the commands and his heart has gone Cold to the voice of Spirit. Then it is my responsibility to show him the truth.

L

Lysa Apr 9, 2012

Sree,

I love you as a brother (or sister?) in Christ and I would have sent this in a private email to you if you had provided an email.

I feel I must be straight-forward with you in a kind way because I am not sure what you “think” I said to Matthew but do you know who does know what I was saying?? Matthew. I understand this is a public forum and that you may be out of the loop but Matthew knows exactly what I was talking about.

Also, this is what happens when you take it upon yourself that “YOU” need to balance someone else’s so-called argument or statement. Firstly, I didn’t make an argument with Matthew; you just assumed I made an argument because of some point of disagreement that you have with me.

Secondly, I say this with the love of Christ as plainly and nicely as I can that it is not your job to balance anything I write (or for that matter, anything someone else writes) because I’ve noticed that you do a lot of that... correcting other people.

And Sree, you will find that I always try to err on the side of love so for future reference you should know that! You can pick out all the Scriptures that you want telling me that it's ok to judge but my responsibly to serve God with all that is with me, not to show someone else the sin in their life. "Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law." Romans 13:8

I will stand before God and have “HIM” correct me and tell me that I loved too much or had too much mercy.

God bless you, Sree
Your sister in Christ, Lisa

R

rbanks Apr 9, 2012

Great posting Lysa!

your brother in Christ,
rbanks

S

Sree Apr 9, 2012

I never said you are trying to argue with the Original Poster.
I do not care whether you said in Love or not. Have I ever mentioned that you showed hatred in your post? Why do you imagine things? In front of God I have nothing personal against you and I do not even try to remember the posts of others here (including you). If the word Argument used in my previous post made you imagine things then I apologize for it. By Argument I simply referred your point in that post not any thing else.

I even agree with your previous post and It has some truth in it. I posted the other side of Truth which the scripture says. It is always important for man to have both Right and left hand. One cannot ignore left hand because it is of less use.

Why is it bothering you if I post the other side of truth? I certainly do not understand. It is a public forum anyone can present what he thinks is a balanced truth. If I personally accused you of teaching anything wrong then you can accuse me. But I never intended it.

I am sure again you will imagine my intentions and start accusing something else, I will not post a reply to your imaginations. I ever never get offended. In front of God what I posted is truth, no one can discard it. And In front of God my intention is not to prove someone is wrong. Let those who want to imagine do what they want.

sermonindex Apr 9, 2012

A short segment of an article by Art that Jeremy221 posted yesterday:

"The requirement of keeping our integrity demands the prayer, the fellowship and the correction of those with whom we are joined in like calling. In my opinion, we cannot keep a Zadokite integrity except in close fellowship or community. We all have blind spots; we can all drift, and we need someone who knows us well and sees in love something at its inception. Are we in an atmosphere where a brother or sister can call our attention to it? If not, it will not be long before that thing will harden beyond the point of remedy. We need to speak the truth often one to another in love. We have things that we cannot perceive about ourselves, which can only be seen by another, but they have to be in a frequency of relationship by which the subtlety of change can be noted at its inception.
When I come to this subject, I often think of my return to my Pentecostal assembly in New Jersey. While having been away for a few years, I was invited to speak on a Sunday morning. I learned the Saturday before that the three most prominent and spiritual women in the congregation had all freaked out and had forsaken their husbands. They had become whores and engaged in the most astonishing immoral conduct. And so the next morning the Lord put a message on my heart about detecting sin while it is yet today, because tomorrow is already too late.
I said: “Why is it that you did not observe something at its inception, maybe the first air of flirtation? You do not have to wait for full blown whoredom to be shocked out of your skin. Why weren’t you acute enough and close enough in proximity to begin to discern the first signs of something that gives a caution in your heart? Shouldn’t your love for that person be willing to be misunderstood and be an offence? Out of love, could you not have felt the necessity to say, ‘I don’t know what it is; I can hardly express it, but I am disturbed. I am seeing something in you that I haven’t seen before. There is a lightness about you, and you seem to show yourself in a way that draws the attention of men that makes me concerned. Are you aware of that?’”
I often say to congregations: “Can you tell your pastor, while there is yet time, that his voice is changing? That his manner and style of speech has gone from a conversational reality to a kind of affected, ministerial style?” When that hardens, it is already too late to bring him back to the place of reality. He himself is unaware that he has moved from the one to the other, unless someone will draw his attention to a subtlety that they hear even in the resonance in his voice. A lot depends on your acute discernment, not a spirit of suspicion, but a spirit of discernment, which will only be factored in love. God will never allow you either to discern or to express your discernment if it comes out of a critical spirit that wants to be exalted at the expense of another.
My indictment that Sunday morning was against the whole fellowship: “You are merely shallow Sunday saints. You are not in that frequency of relationship, nor have you the courage for truth and love by which correction might have come early enough to have saved those women from walking in that way and ending up in the calamity that has come. It is our personal responsibility to maintain Zadokite integrity, but we cannot do it alone.
Those who are most susceptible to falling into error and losing their calling, going from being a true prophet to a false, are those who need this kind of correction more than others. But if they are surrounded by a paid staff, who more often than not are afraid to suggest that there is a need for correction, then those men will drift into a place of increasingly becoming affected and false. Their staff will withhold the correction because they do not want to bite the hand that feeds them. We have to seek a fellowship of kindred souls, kindred spirits, who are jealous for this thing. Where two or three are gathered in His name; it doesn’t take many, but it does take two or three of a very particular kind: real saints, who would not withhold speaking the truth in love."

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=44204&forum=34&0

sermonindex Apr 9, 2012

"I will stand before God and have “HIM” correct me and tell me that I loved too much or had too much mercy. "

Paul would have corrected you too. We need to be careful that what we call mercy, God may call sin. There is always error on both sides of the highway of holiness. We shouldnt be to spiritual to take Pauls rebuke - when the situation truly calls for it and our heart motive is right.

1Co 5:11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler--not even to eat with such a one.
For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. "Purge the evil person from among you." "

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MaryJane Apr 9, 2012

by jimdied2sin on 2012/4/9 9:34:59

"I will stand before God and have “HIM” correct me and tell me that I loved too much or had too much mercy. "

Paul would have corrected you too. We need to be careful that what we call mercy, God may call sin. There is always error on both sides of the highway of holiness. We shouldnt be to spiritual to take Pauls rebuke - when the situation truly calls for it and our heart motive is right.

1Co 5:11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler--not even to eat with such a one.
For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. "Purge the evil person from among you." "

________________

jimdied2sin I think I understand what you are saying in this post. This topic has come up for me before in relationships that I have with others who claim to belong to Jesus. I have in times past over looked or turned a blind eye to the sin of others. I thought myself to be showing more love, compassion, and mercy then those who were willing to truly demonstrate love and share truth in . After much prayer and time in the Lord I see now that those who were sharing truth and admonishing other believers for their sin were the ones who were really loving and I was being selfish and sinning...

Good post and thank you for sharing it.
God Bless
mj

sermonindex Apr 9, 2012

let me add that I have gotten spanked big time by the Lord for making bad judgments from bad motives in the past and never in a million years would suggest that to anyone. Also sorry to sister Lysa if my post came across as being against you personally. Just something to think and pray about sister. -Jim

M

MaryJane Apr 9, 2012

by jimdied2sin on 2012/4/9 10:31:08

let me add that I have gotten spanked big time by the Lord for making bad judgments from bad motives in the past and never in a million years would suggest that to anyone.
-------

Exactly this kind of sharing with another believer
must be done in love and in Him! When done in
Christ sharing in this way, admonishing one
another and encouraging one another in Christ
is such an amazing expression of His love for
each other!!

God bless
Mj

L

Lysa Apr 10, 2012

Quote by Lisa "I will stand before God and have “HIM” correct me and tell me THAT I loved too much or had too much mercy.”

Jimdied2sin: Paul would have corrected you too. We need to be careful that what we call mercy, God may call sin. There is always error on both sides of the highway of holiness. We shouldnt be to spiritual to take Pauls rebuke - when the situation truly calls for it and our heart motive is right.
1Co 5:11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler--not even to eat with such a one.
For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. "Purge the evil person from among you."

Brother Jim, I am not offended in the least and did not take it personally! I know where you are coming from; I used to come from the same place but I no longer abide there anymore.

Believe you me, I have been spanked by the Lord!! But NEVER have I been spanked (by God) because I refused to judge someone and instead love them, never so far!

God bless you, brother!
Lisa

S

Sree Apr 10, 2012

With reference to my very first post in this thread. I am not advocating believers judging one another. The only person I have to judge is I myself. I am not saying that I need to judge another person. Even Jesus himself did not come to the world to Judge anyone during his first coming.

John 3 -17:-For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

If Jesus himself did not judge anyone how can I who is called to walk like him can Judge someone?

When Jesus spoke to the Samaritan women he did not Judge her as ungodly women but instead he saw her as a women who needs God. That is why he compared her (and Samaria) to a field that is ready for Harvest for God. But while speaking with the women he also showed her sin by saying the 'Man you are living with is not your husband'. So to show the sin of someone which he/she is committing by ignoring the spirit is not Judging but saving their soul from Sin. And one does not need to give a sermon to bring conviction, just one line like how Jesus spoke is enough.

For example when you see a man caught up in Lion's den, if you keep walking without helping him and thinking his life is going to end soon then you have already judged him as hopeless. But instead if you help him to come out of Den you are not actually judging him but instead saving him. Sin is much worse than Lion!!!

M

mguldner Apr 10, 2012

I am in no way using this thinking to judge the hearts of others :)

I use this thinking to look at my own heart, I found that sin is sin and though we are all unique in our own special way our reasons behind sinning are usually about the same. And so if I can look at my heart in light of others mistakes I can shine light on areas that are dark in my own heart.

I really do appreciate the dialogue that has taken place on this topic it has taught me a lot and I would definitely like it to continue :)

M

MaryJane Apr 10, 2012

Sree wrote:For example when you see a man caught up in Lion's den, if you keep walking without helping him and thinking his life is going to end soon then you have already judged him as hopeless. But instead if you help him to come out of Den you are not actually judging him but instead saving him. Sin is much worse than Lion!!!
____________

I realize now how unloving, and sinful it was for me to stand by and see another who proclaims to love Jesus and say nothing to them when they are living in open sin. If I truly examine my motives in those times it was because of self not out of any real love for my fellow brother/sister in Christ. It was awkward and uncomfortable to confront another person, I always worried about how upset they might be and I missed opportunities to share the love and light of JESUS with them by speaking truthfully.
I have repented of this kind of cowardice but it is still difficult. There really is a difference between sharing the truth and giving correction in another believers life and judging them.
Having a brother/sister share the love of Christ with me by pointing out sin that I am walking in when I may not even be seeing it has been a huge blessing to me. I see now those who loved the most were the ones who risked the most by being honest, sometime painfully honest, but honest in HIM!!

Thank you Matthew for the thread it is a blessing.
God Bless
mj

sermonindex Apr 10, 2012

Lysa said:

"I know where you are coming from; I used to come from the same place but I no longer abide there anymore."

Jim:

So if you were in Corinth when Paul wrote this would you say "sorry Paul - I know where you are coming from but I moved on from that place"..

"But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler--not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. "Purge the evil person from among you."

sermonindex Apr 10, 2012

MaryJane said:

"Exactly this kind of sharing with another believer
must be done in love and in Him! When done in
Christ sharing in this way, admonishing one
another and encouraging one another in Christ
is such an amazing expression of His love for
each other!!"

God bless you sister MaryJane. Since returning to SI, I have been really encouraged to read what the Lord has been doing in your life.

On a related note, I have had people rightly rebuke me but from a wrong motive and I had to humble myself and say like David:

"If he is cursing because the LORD has said to him, 'Curse David,' who then shall say, 'Why have you done so?'... It may be that the LORD will look on the wrong done to me, and that the LORD will repay me with good for his cursing today." 2 Samual 16

How much better if it had been done in humility and love...

-Jim

R

rbanks Apr 11, 2012

James 2:11-12 (KJV)
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

Just consider a long with the other scriptures because I think there are some today who arrogantly think that they are called to function in the same apostolic office as did the Apostle Paul and yet not truly understanding the anointing and leading of the Holy Spirit that must accompany the function.

No pun intended... blessings from brother rbanks

sermonindex Apr 13, 2012

I have to agree with your statement. We are told 'not to think more highly of ourselves that we ought' 'even according to the measure of faith given'. I have fallen into this trap myself many times in my imagination. Thankfully I have limited this foolishness to my mind and have been retrained from actually claiming those foolish thought as true. I have often wondered about the great boasts and claims which are made today by a few and I have come to the thought that perhaps a little revelation of God, has provoked a lot of self importance. Great claims declared and trumpited over any people will result in an outcome. But what outcome really when you consider how many saints have been defrauded of their true libery in Christ Jesus' only to follow a man.

Paul himself, as you know was thought less of in person by the Corinthians when present with them, but was said to have weighty letters. Somehow the Corinthians came to despise this Paul who was present, but admired the Paul who was abscent. This is of course not to commend the Corinthian attitude. It only demonstrated that when the saints of God walk in their own strength they seek even stronger men to lead them.

How very different it is for those who have imagined themselves to be like Paul today. Some are living like kings and it appears that the Lord has given them over to it. In their persistence they have made their own way and rejected Christ 'who though strong to save others' in weakness 'could not save Himself. Its all very sad and troubling because one knows the root of it, but to speak against it brings immediate and terrible rebuke from these men.

In the end I would rather keep my mouth shut than risk impressing the elect of God with foolish words. A letter on the other hand can be studied; gone into and rejected if it is seen to be lacking substance.

Surpassing revelation was Paul's portion in Christ, but he would not take his stand on it; rather prefering weakness when present for Christ sake. Today the Lord permits things which in the time of the early apostolic church could not have been possible. I have no doubt that this has to do with the fact that the apostles themselves were a restraining influence; in that God used them exceptionally and fearfully. Also apostacy must and indeed has come, even as Paul warned that some of those who laboured with him, were already of that spirit.

This age is filling up fast, and I truly am troubled by many of the things I hear and see being done in Christ name. May God Himself and Christ have their way with us lest we too stumble because of pride and greed and drunken power. Amen.

L

Lysa Apr 13, 2012

Lysa said: "I know where you are coming from; I used to come from the same place but I no longer abide there anymore."
by jimdied2sin:
So if you were in Corinth when Paul wrote this would you say "sorry Paul - I know where you are coming from but I moved on from that place"..
"But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler--not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. "Purge the evil person from among you."

Brother, I do not deny that scripture in 1 Cor 5 but let’s trace this back... I responded to Matthew and Sree called me out over that and then I responded to him and then you called me out on my response to Sree; can you see that this is dissolving into something that I don’t even know where it’s going. Do you even know what you are trying to chastise me over?

I cannot for the life of me understand why people get bent out of shape when I say “I” would rather err on the side of love and mercy than on the side of judgment. Brother, you can disagree with me and still go to heaven!! (huge grin) As I can disagree with you and still go to heaven too!

God bless you Jim!!
Lisa