Can we lose our salvation? Let's ask the "Prince of Preachers"

sermonindex Apr 10, 2012

Interesting quotes from Charles Spurgeon about losing our salvation....

"If anybody said he had eternal life and lost it, he would be flatly contradicting himself. It could not be eternal, or else he must still have it."

"Further, if Christ had intended to cast us away because of our sins, why did he ever take us on?"

"True, we are unworthy, but we always were, and if you did want a reason for leaving us you have had ten thousand reasons long ago."

"If he had meant to cast you away he would have done so long ago. If he wanted reasons for rejecting you he had reasons from all eternity, for he knew what you would be. No sin in you has been a surprise to him."

"If believers are lost, God loses more than they do, for he loses his honour, he loses his character for truthfulness, and the glory of his name is tarnished."

Enjoy,
Krispy

S

Sree Apr 10, 2012

All these quotes are true and they are applicable to a Christian who thinks that he has lost his salvation because of his sin. There is no sin that Blood of Jesus cannot cleanse. But these quotes cannot be used by a man as a license for Sin thinking that his sins are already forgiven. Such quotes are like fire; if they are in right hand it can be used in a constructive way but in wrong hands can result in destruction.

Christians can be deceived in two ways which can be compared to two sides of a coin. One side of Christians get into an unbelief that their sins are so bad that they cannot be forgiven and another side are people who think that all their sins are forgiven so they can live a fleshly life. Both are deceived and the medicine for one (verse or quote) can be poison to another.

Please do not ask can Christian be deceived?
Matthew 24:24-For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the ELECT.

P

pilgrim777 Apr 10, 2012

You cannot lose your salvation like losing/misplacing your wife.

But you can fall away. The Bible talks about falling away. Falling away from what?

One can fall away from his wife or husband (divorce).

It is not the Lord's fault that one chooses to fall away.

He that endures to the end will be saved.

2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

Did you know this was in the Bible?

According to God's Word, it is possible to:

let the things which you have heard slip (Heb. 2:1)
go astray (Mt. 18:12,13)
err from the faith (1 Tim. 6:10,21)
err from the faith and overthrow the faith of others (2 Tim. 2:18)
lose your savour (saltiness) (Lk. 14:34,35)
be offended by Jesus (Mt. 11:6; Mk. 14:27,29)
fall away from grace (Gal. 5:4)
believe for awhile but in time of temptation fall away (Lk. 8:13)
be offended, betray one another and hate one another (Mt. 24:10)
have your faith shipwrecked (1 Tim. 1:19)
turn back and no longer follow Jesus (Jn. 6:66)
forsake the right way and go astray (2 Pet. 2:15)
stop abiding in Christ and as a branch, be withered and thrown away (Jn. 15:6)
be offended (Jn. 16:1)
turn aside after Satan (1 Tim. 5:15)
depart from the faith, having your conscience seared with a hot iron (1 Tim. 4:1-2)
turn your ears away from the truth and turn unto fables (2 Tim. 4:4)
acquire an evil heart of unbelief and depart from the living God (Heb. 3:12)
fall away to the point where you can’t be renewed to repentance (Heb. 6:6)
refuse Him that speaketh from heaven (Heb. 12:25)
become lukewarm and get spit out of the body of Christ (Rev. 3:15,16)
not remain faithful and be hurt by the second death (Rev. 2:10,11)
have God take away your part from the tree of life and in the holy city (Rev. 22:19)
be led away with the error of the wicked and fall from your steadfastness (2 Pet 3:17)
be carried away by all kinds of strange doctrines (Heb. 13:9)

Pilgrim

sermonindex Apr 10, 2012

First off, just because some people misapply the doctrine of eternal security does not make it any less true. Those who would believe they can live any ol' way they wish and still be saved have yet to actually be saved. They have not repented.

Secondly, the version of the Bible you're quoting from is incorrect. More reliable versions say: "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

"if it were possible" inplies that the deception is going to be so strong that "if it were possible" even the elect would be deceived. But it's not possible. This is a literary usage to make a point.

This is what John Gill in his commentary said:

IF IT WERE POSSIBLE:

"But by the elect are meant, a select number of particular persons of Adam's posterity, whom God, of his sovereign goodwill and pleasure, without respect to their faith, holiness, and good works, has chosen, in Christ, before the foundation of the world, both to grace and glory: and to deceive these finally and totally, is impossible, as is here suggested; not impossible, considering their own weakness, and the craftiness of deceivers, who, if left to themselves, and the power of such deception, and the working of Satan with all deceivableness of unrighteousness, might easily be seduced; but considering the purposes and promises of God concerning them, the provisions of his grace for them, the security of them in the hands of Christ, and their preservation by the mighty power of God, their final and total deception is not only difficult, but impossible."

This verse actually bolsters the doctrine of eternal security! It does nothing to undermine it. More modern versions have taken out "it where" from the statement "if it were possible"... to make it "if possible". The first one is correct, and has always been translated that way until sometime in the 1900's. Not only is this new translation not true to the original language, but it also contradicts Bible doctrine, and other verses such as John 10:28,29.

Krispy

sermonindex Apr 10, 2012

Pilgrim... there is a very simple answer for why some fall away: They were never saved to begin with.

That is in keeping with 1 John 2:19:

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."

All the verses you quoted are true... and are perfectly explained by scripture.

They were never saved.

Krispy

H

hmmhmm Apr 10, 2012

I will not enter into this discussion and encourage you to continue on with caution.

As for the topic i see many Scripture supports both sides, I have not made up my mind yet where I stand. One scripture you may want to further look at Krispy is in 2 Peter verse 1

It says tehre quote "...even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction" later it says their destruction does not slumber.

Now this one phrase "the Lord who bought them"

It seem to say they where bought with the blood of Christ and later they end up in destruction.

I love Spurgeon and the other reformed writers and would recommend anyone to read them any day, but for me we need look first at scripture in its fullness.

And atleast for me when going to the scriptures i see both to be true, in one sense we can not Lose our salvation, in another i see it is not impossible and actually many many passages and verses seem to imply once we are saved we should work on our salvation with fear and trembling. etc etc and all the warnings in scripture would seem useless if there where no possibility at all for us to not ever lose our salvation.

I do not know nor trying to convince anyone what to believe or what scripture says in this matter, just that we all study and pray and maybe God will shed light on this for us.

And again a cautious warning to keep this thread upbuilding and edifying for all who read. We are a testimony to the world with our word and wording.

brother Christian

P

pilgrim777 Apr 10, 2012

Don't touch your TV dial, we are in control.

You are now entering the realm of the dogma zone.

See ya on another thread.

Pilgrim

sermonindex Apr 10, 2012

I will not enter into this discussion and encourage you to continue on with caution.

Noted, my friend... this discussion can be had without hostilities breaking out. :-)

Krispy

sermonindex Apr 10, 2012

we are in control

lol... I'm glad I am NOT in control of things! You should be too!

Krispy

H

hmmhmm Apr 10, 2012

I know Krispy, its just a have many occasions where myself have been "sucked in" but i am convinced Brothers in Christ can speak, discuss and share scriptures without becoming a shootout with scriptural ammunition and just edify and stir one another up to study more fervent to know him and his word and to edify one another and build ourselves up in the most holy faith. of this i am convinced and i pray we would see that more and more

J

jochbaptist Apr 10, 2012

Hi KK

What are your thoughts on this part of scripture then? I listened to it on MP3 this weekend, and it jolted me a bit.

Hebrews 6:4-9
For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put [Him] to an open shame. For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briers, [it is] rejected and near to being cursed, whose end [is] to be burned. But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner.

Hebrews 10:26-30
For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on [the testimony of] two or three witnesses.
Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. And again, "The LORD will judge His people."

H

Heydave Apr 10, 2012

Krispy, Krispy, Krispy! What has come over you? lol.
How long have you been on this forum and did you not consider this subject is a firecracker waiting to go?!

Anyway I think sree made a lot of good points.

As for me I was a ardent defender of OSAS years ago, but after years of reading the bible (over 30) I cannot reconcile that position with what I read in scripture. That's just me. I know others take a different view.

Eternal security IS true. We are eternally secure IN Christ....if we remain in Him. If we do not remain, but walk away from Christ, how can we secure? I think that is what the book of Hebrews is teaching.

I'll leave it at that and have no more comments.

sermonindex Apr 10, 2012

Joch... running out of writing time today... let me get back to you on this...

Krispy

T

twayneb Apr 10, 2012

Krispy: :-) this is the equivalent of opening the door and throwing a snake into the crowd is it not?

Actually it is a good topic for us to dive into scripture and really study and pray rather than simply adopting that which we have been taught in our denomination.

Blessings.

P

pilgrim777 Apr 10, 2012

Amen to what you say, Dave.

Krispy, I'm not here to fight, either.

I don't believe in the security of the unbeliever. And how could we ever say that a believer could never fall into unbelief and fall away when we have the Word of God to show us so many examples? I wish it was so easy to just say, "they weren't saved and never knew Jesus".

Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in DEPARTING from the living God.

Departing from the Living God are very strong words.

Heb 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest ANY MAN FALL after the same example of unbelief.

Anyway, I just wanted to add this and I don't have anything else to say except the Lord bless you all, richly.

Pilgrim

sermonindex Apr 10, 2012

Actually it is a good topic for us to dive into scripture and really study and pray rather than simply adopting that which we have been taught in our denomination.

I agree... this is an important thing to discuss. We all just have to act like adults and proceed in love. We can have a great conversation and maybe even learn from one another.

It's worth a shot.

Krispy

sermonindex Apr 10, 2012

There are some people who move from one dogma or doctrine to another. Maybe a swing from charismania to reformed, admittedly a big swing but a blowing in the wind none the less. The man whose grand obsession is Jesus, who makes Jesus the pre-emminent one, who wants to always talk about his passion, Jesus, he is the man of fellowship and grace and love. What has this got to do with this thread, probably nothing.......... bro Frank

M

MaryJane Apr 10, 2012

The man whose grand obsession is Jesus, who makes Jesus the pre-emminent one, who wants to always talk about his passion, Jesus, he is the man of fellowship and grace and love. What has this got to do with this thread, probably nothing.......... bro Frank

_______________

I just love what you wrote here Frank!! Oh Lord hear my prayer, make JESUS the passion of my life. As I live and breath let my thoughts be continually on HIM!!
Amen!!

God Bless you Frank
mj

T

twayneb Apr 10, 2012

Now that I have time to reply...

This is a topic that, like Christian, I do not think I have landed on totally. There are much more than two or three proof texts on either side to consider. This topic really takes in the very nature of our salvation, and that is a big topic.

Those who say salvation cannot be lost seem to focus on a fairly limited selection of verses and try to explain others away. Those who believe in conditional salvation will likewise focus on their favorites...and so it goes. But I wonder if we sometimes do not have a somewhat skewed view of salvation that leads us to one side or the other.

There are a good number of verses that speak to holding our hope to the end, of enduring to the end, and of casting not away your confidence. There are others that speak to turning away unto perdition. So it seems that one can indeed lose his salvation. Yet we know from other scriptures that we cannot lose our salvation by an act of sin, nor can anyone else steal our salvation from us. It appears, to me anyway, that the only way I can lose it is to willfully turn from it. Yet I know this does not mean that every man who we might call a backslider has lost his salvation.

Like I said before, I do not have a totally clear understanding of the issue. I am still coming to an understanding of this. But this one thing I do know. I am going to walk as close to Jesus as I can so that I do not have to worry about it.

H

hmmhmm Apr 10, 2012

very good post twayneb (travis?sorry if remember wrongly)

I think Tozer said upon asked if he believed in eternal security that he did for him self but for others he was not so sure. I do not think he meant that in a prideful "I am better christian then you are" way but rather as you write "I am going to walk as close to Jesus as I can so that I do not have to worry about it."