a reformed view of a doctrine prevelent in the baptise denomination the carnal christan
verry powerfull preaching ,verry convicting , classic 1964 bible preaching
part one
http://www.sermonaudio.com/playpopup.asp?SID=11110485122
part 2
Well I just finished Part 1 of this message - Praise the Lord for SOMEONE articulating what we see all around us! Thank you for posting this - it is well worth the listen...
Gary
That which you have posted is a 'modern' reformed view on the topic. The classic view from an original reformer is below. The two views are VERY different.
“Again in 7:14 the Apostle says: “I am carnal, sold under sin.” That is the proof of a spiritual and wise man. He knows that he is carnal, and he is displeased with himself; indeed he hates himself and praises the Law of God, which he recognizes because he is spiritual. But the proof of a foolish, carnal man is this, that he regards himself as spiritual and is pleased with himself.” Martin Luther Commentary of the Romans Chapter 7.
Anyone here willing to claim that he/she is NOT carnal?
OJ
You have to listen to the message....it is not that one doesn't have "carnal" moments or failings...it is the PATTERN OF THE LIFE.....the message says exactly what Luther says - that a true believer would NOT be pleased with himself, and is UNCOMFORTABLE when he sins, and is ALWAYS wanting to grow more spiritually.... I am not sure I am seeing the difference that you mention Old_Joe....
edited due to wrong post
Quote: "it is not that one doesn't have carnal" moments or failings...it is the PATTERN OF THE LIFE.
So if you have carnal moments or failings what is it that causing that failures?
It's simple the answer is "SIN" that remains in the believer after conversion.
I can't believe that you can't see how perverse and hypocritical this doctrine of the one nature is turning "SIN" in the believer to "carnal moments" or "failings".
Moses was one who didn't want to see his condition he says "let me not see my wretchedness" Num 11:15.
For Moses the failure to deal with those "moments of carnal failings" "THE SIN IN HIS LIFE" it end up with judgement from God because he was misrepresenting God with his outbursts of anger and he was not allowed to lead the people into the promised land. Num 20:11-12.
I did listen to it mama27.
However, every Christian is carnal including Paul, which is how the reformers dealt with it. It was not dealt with by saying some Christians are carnal and some are not.
Unbelievers can be uncomfortable when they sin as well, King Saul did a great job displaying this for us. Solomon and Lot as believers also did a great job in showing us that though not desired, sin even up to a 'pattern of life' can be evident in a believer. But neither justified themselves in any way as did Saul. Preaching against the so-called "Carnal Christian" causes those who can't see themselves in such a way to justify themselves, this is what unbelievers do.
As a preacher, Mr. Martin is to condemn all carnality, including things which he finds in himself. There are thinkgs ike debate, whispering, boasting, divisions etc. that are overlooked but are listed as great evils. The 'debate' that goes on here is listed in Romans 1 framed between murder and deceit and all included next to sodomy, but nary a mention of that for carnality. It is not just THEY which are carnal, it is WE which are carnal.
When we concern ourselves with THEM it tends to exalt US in our own eyes, but our concern is not with THEM, it is with US. When we see and deal with that which is in US, enough more of that which is in US will be shown to US so that we have a neverending supply to deal with, before we ever have to concern ourselves with THEM.
WE are all carnal, let each deal with his own carnality.
OJ
Paul condemned "carnality". Only those that pervert Romans 7 wrest what this Apostle spoke to His Church. This perversion of The Word of GOD is devilish.
--------------------------------
Brother Gary, in the other thread you say that the branches that abide in the vine is written to the Jews -
going back to the vine and branches ,heres some old testament example of the branches and the vine being the jews and not bornagaing christans
isa
7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel And the men of Judah His delightful plant. Thus He looked for justice, but behold, bloodshed; For righteousness, but behold, a cry of distress.jesus parable is in conection to this brothers
- from the "Can we lose our salvation" thread.
When we begin to seperate His Covenant people from ourselves - we make the second biggest mistake that many have done since Constantine's time.
What does His Word say. Is "the Vine" any different from "the Olive tree"? Hardly!
Rom 11:18-24 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. **Be not highminded, but fear**: for if God spared not
the "natural branches", **take heed lest he also spare not thee.**
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness,
**IF thou continue in His goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.**
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in **again**.
For if thou wert cut out of **the olive tree which is "wild by nature", and "wert graffed contrary to nature into a *good* olive tree": how much more shall these, *which be the natural branches*, be graffed into *their own* olive tree?**
Paul condemned "carnality".
Of course he did, and included himself in the condemnation so that Christ alone would be glorified.
Are you carnal JIG?
OJ
sister ane ,,,im not sure if you read all my posts in that other thread ,,because i never said or even inplyed that we should not aply the teaching of the vine and branches to us as gentiles ,,what i said was we should stay in the flow and contex of scripture ,,,if jesus was refuring back to old testament prophecy about the vinyard ,we should understand in that contex them aply it us
i see you have highlighted verses for me to see as if may not have seen them
as i was saying verse 11 shows that the stumble ,or the cuting of of the jews from the blessings of the gosple ,,in that same moment god turned his blessings ,his hand and eye towards the gentile ,,,,it says verse 11 salvation has come to the gentiles ,,, there is a general grafting in of the gentiles into the blessings of god in a way that has never been before
bare allways in mind that not all grafts will take or connect to the branch ,and recieve the life giving flow of sap in a way whereby it bares GOOD FRUIT
even nature branches will not nesasarly bare good fruit ,and as with the jews ,they where cut of in one pruning session in the season when god decide it,,,
in doing that he made way for some fresh branches from wild sick trees ,,,,
when the time of the getiles is over at the season that god chooses ,all gentile grafted branches ,THAT DID NOT PRODUCE good fruit ,will be conidered bad branches and cut from the vine ,,then god will turn again to the jews ,and graft in the natural branches ,and those that that take and graft in to the vine in a sufishet manner and bare fruit ,will remain
im think the flow of the and contex of the vine parrable and the olive tree parrable point towards a real agracutural experance ,,,,,in the end the healthy and ture grafts ,will be known by there fruits ,and only those will be concidered part of the vine
think it is also worth noticing ,in the parrable of the vine and branches ,,that jesus says ,that i have spoken this parrable that you joy may be full , he did to speak the parrable as warning to casue the fear of god or hell ,at that time ,,but a fullness of joy ,,,,,
and sister keeping that parable in the contex intened here will cause joy ,and strength ,and that is exactly what jesus was doing noing the days that layed ahead of his deciples
blessings
Ooooh. :) Good. I got worried with that wee bit that I quoted.
when the time of the getiles is over at the season that god chooses ,all gentile grafted branches ,THAT DID NOT PRODUCE good fruit ,will be conidered bad branches and cut from the vine ,,then god will turn again to the jews ,and graft in the natural branches ,and those that that take and graft in to the vine in a sufishet manner and bare fruit ,will remain
Yes, horticulture. Reminds me of Luke 8 with the sower of the seed and what we do with that seed in our hearts and Matt 13 & 25 [etc], in that, it's the branches that don't 'abide' in the vine by their own choice and not the fault of the husbandman that grafted them in or had sown the seed.
'Thank you' for taking the time to expand your thoughts, Brother.
Appreciated!
I hadn't been to this site below in a number of years.
Just listened to the Introduction to 1Corinthians so far. Seemed pretty good - though I wondered if he judges poor sad Jeremiah by his "happy fruits".
Anyhow - it's a weekly [Thursday] live Bible Study by Chip Brogden but the past weeks stay up for catch up.
They're up to 1Corth 3 with 4 coming this week.
http://theschoolofchrist.org/mp3/1corinthians-intro.html
Does anyone know what happened to all of the messages that he used to have up on his Site? There were a very many but they appear to be gone.
GOD Bless!
your welcome ,no i dont no what happend to them ,,but you will more then likly find him on you tube ,or from there own church web site ,,,,,,blessings ,,im off to work its neary 530 in the morning have a good day///////
Brother,
I just wanted to let you know that posting to outside sermons from sermon index is not encouraged from these forums. This is for many reasons but namely to prevent abuse. I hope this helps for future reference.
It is a good subject of discussion though and I trust it will bear fruit.
When we concern ourselves with THEM it tends to exalt US in our own eyes, but our concern is not with THEM, it is with US. When we see and deal with that which is in US, enough more of that which is in US will be shown to US so that we have a neverending supply to deal with, before we ever have to concern ourselves with THEM.
Of course he did, and included himself in the condemnation so that Christ alone would be glorified.
We're to form our doctrine from the Whole of The Word of GOD Only.
The Whole of the New Testament contradicts your belief that Paul was speaking in the present tense about himself rather than figuritively in Romans 7, as Wesley, just for one, brings out .... but you choose to believe it so that you can continue on with that belief as an excuse for your behavior and to continue to cause the Biblically weak to stumble. By making Paul out to be "a slave to sin - carnal and sold under sin" you've contradicted ALL else that he and all the of the other books of the New Testament state, and by doing that you have made yourself an outcast. Also because, when we spoke on other threads last year about "obeying GOD and His Word because we Love Him" - You came against us all for that - So it's no surprise that these two sermons in the OP would 'bother' you enough for you to feel the need to post onto this thread and against these messages - as the sermons expose what you attack most ... "What is Written".
Do you truly believe that you're gaining a following here? You may get a few truly carnal ones to join you - but as long as there's some here with a caring heart for the young in Christ - someone will always expose your deceptions.
Thank you, Brother Gary.
JIG
I am not here to gain a following. If I was here to do that I would play all nicey-nicey and fill people with flattery, but as you can plainly see, that is not the case.
Are you carnal JIG?
OJ
Quote: By making Paul out to be "a slave to sin - carnal and sold under sin" you've contradicted ALL else that he and all the of the other books of the New Testament state
Rom 7:9 Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.
So when exactly was Paul alive?
What does Paul say he clearly stated that we were all spiritually dead in our sin in Ephesians 2:1-3.
2 Corinthians 4:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
Are not Jew and Gentile all dead in sin because we didn't have the Son?
So when exactly was Paul alive?
Edited for spelling
Dear Old-Joe and murrcolr,
I believe I see the disconnect between you and mama27. I agree with you completely, and yet I agree with her.
I think it might be in the way you're using/understanding the word 'carnal'. I have found that there are two ways in which people use this word:
1.Predisposed to sin by nature and by virtue of being in the flesh; sold under sin. (I believe this is how you're defining carnal) Like you said, this is true of ALL men, including believers, for all are selfish, proud, given to folly and debate, lust etc.
2.Living in a lifestyle of constant UNREPENTED sin.(mama's definition) This is not true long-term for a believer. You mentioned that even Saul was uncomfortable with his sin. Yes, sin makes everyone uncomfortable because of its consequences. Everyone is afraid of tarnishing their reputation, death, shame, getting caught etc., but not everyone is REPENTANT. The key word here is 'repentant', not uncomfortable. It is God himself who leads the believer in the path of repentance; so it is impossible, by definition, for a believer to live indefinitely in constant known unrepented sin without the discipline of God.
So, in conclusion, every christian is carnal, and yet every christian is not carnal.
My two cents. I hope this helps in resolving the differences.
Dlight.
Double post
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