Sins forgiven and the old man crucified

I am soundly saved, baptised in the Spirit, but I have found that there is something in me that is crooked and unacceptable to God.

I would like to have a discussion around these topics.

• The old man who is corrupted. The nature we inherited from Adam that remains in the Christian after being “saved”.

• The New Man we inherited from Christ, which God created in righteousness and true holiness.

• What did the Apostle Paul mean when he wrote “That we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus” Col 1:28.

With that said I am looking for an open honest discussion which is edifying…

Amen tuc.

We either have the nature of God or the nature of Satan. We have no independent nature apart from from one of them.

We do not have the nature of God and Satan at the same time. And what is human nature if not the nature of Satan? The Satanic flesh nature that people call human nature is not of God and you are right, it was crucified.

To say we have a "human nature" is to say that we have an independent self apart from either God or Satan.

Were we 50% regenerated or 100% regenerated?

Now, we can still sin, but we don't have to. The power of sin has been broken and the spirit of disobedience (Satan) has been replaced by the Spirit of God.

We have a heart now to abide in God and no longer in Satan and thus we derive our life, nature and character from God.

We have the imprints and patterns and memory of sin in this flesh and that is why we must renew our mind and choose life each minute of each day and not death.

The choice is still ours but God has given us a new heart and grace and His Spirit so that we might overcome the world, the flesh and the Devil and say with Jesus, "The Evil One has nothing in me".

Pilgrim

Hello Colin,

Praise God for your testimony, "I am soundly saved, baptised in the Spirit, but I have found that there is something in me that is crooked and unacceptable to God."

I strongly recommend you visit old joe's thread and read his posts. On there you will see many posts that refute the idea that a Saint can be vile but the Apostle Paul, himself, claims he is vile. I know I am completely unworthy of my salvation and thank Jesus Christ my Lord for His Spirit living in me. I thank Him for the work He does/will do in and through me, for in me there is no good work. If I do something good it is to His credit. Please know this does not throw me off from doing what He allows me to do with complete joy.

Below is the link to that lengthy thread. Beware of anyone telling you other than what Paul teaches, or of anyone twisting the intent of his words.

You ask: • What did the Apostle Paul mean when he wrote “That we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus” Col 1:28. I believe he answers that in v.27 "this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: "

Kindest regards,
white stone
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=43678&forum=36&243

Man is a tri-part being. Body, Soul & Spirit. Unsaved persons have spirits which are dead to God. Once you are saved your spirit becomes alive to God by becoming one with God's Spirit. You spirit man is sinless and perfect, otherwise you could not have fellowship with God. Your body on the other hand is anything but perfect or sinless. Paul said "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing." In the book of Romans Paul talks about the conflict in the believer between the spirit and the flesh. If you live after the flesh you will die but if you live by the spirit you will experience life and peace. Any honest Christian will tell you that this tension is real. Between the flesh and the spirit is the soul. The soul consists of man's mind which includes the heart (affections and emotions) and the will. To grow and mature as a Christian you must learn to choose by an act of your will to lean and rely on your spirit and distrust and turn away from the flesh.

The point I am making is that I like to think of my spirit man as the "true" me and the flesh as the "false" or "dead" me. When we leave our bodies (either at death or when Jesus returns) we will receive glorified bodies and our struggle against the flesh will be over. So when I say that my spirit is the "true" me I am not pretending it to be so, it is what will survive and exist forever. Not my old stinking flesh.

However, until we get our glorified new bodies we will be regularly solicited by our flesh to do its bidding. I have learned that instead of being constantly preoccupied or obsessed with sin, when I focus on Jesus and my relationship to Him I can overcome the flesh and sin by the power of His Spirit. You see, we only behave according to how we see ourselves to be, our identity. Most people have it just backwards, they base their identity on their behavior. So if they have a problem with overeating they see themselves as a glutton. Once you see yourself as a particular type of sinner, you will always have a problem with that sin. But if you will take your eyes off the sin problem and look to Jesus with eyes of faith and believe and confess that you are a new creature in Christ created for good works and then rely on that new life in Christ to live out through you, you will experience victory. The key is abiding in the True Vine.

So, if Christ came to make men righteous, how does one experience righteousness as a work of the Spirit? Is this supposed to be an experiential reality in our lives or not?

Is there such a thing as the transformation of righteousness in a believer?

I believe there is because without righteousness the glory of God will not abide among men. It is not enough to be "declared righteous" and to say we are "justified", there must be real fruit. There must be some manifestation of the work of righteousness by the Spirit in a person. Otherwise, there is no reality of Christ in our lives and we just continue down the "happy" road of deception.

As the Church today is praying for revival the words of the prophet still speak with clear direction.

Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God

Isa 40:4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:

Isa 40:5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

True believing leads to the inworking (sanctification) and the outworking of our faith (true works authored by the Holy Spirit).

Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. John 15:14

Who are the sons of God?

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:14

Pilgrim

Thanks for the many replies, the encouragement, and the advice.

I have selected some of quotes from the post so far.

Quote: Every Truth that He's spoken, Satan has come up with a counterfeit for.

Your are correct, this is one of the reasons why I am posting on this thread, I want to be challenged by your replies.

Quote: Brother forgive me for being practical. But our walk with Christ is practical.

I am not a theologian myself and I am more comfortable doing practical things than theory. It’s important to have the theory correct but the far more important issue is the practical aspect of the Christian’s life and “how we walk in our day to day life”. How does Paul put it “loud clanging cympal”

Quote: We only can have one nature, It is impossible to have two natures!

Quote: We either have the nature of God or the nature of Satan. We have no independent nature apart from from one of them.

Okay I here what you’re saying, but from what I have been shown by Holy Spirit in my own life it points to this not being the case. You are free to challenge me on this come up with some scriptures and examples.

Quote: We have the imprints and patterns and memory of sin in this flesh and that is why we must renew our mind and choose life each minute of each day and not death.

Okay so we only have one nature but there are only imprints patterns and memory of sin.

What do you mean by patterns could I say “sinful habit” and it would mean the same?

What do you mean by a memory of sin? The bible says that “For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he” Pro 23:7 So can I say then if you think about a sinful act then I am a sinner?

What do you mean by Imprint of sin? Do you mean a distinguishing influence or effect for example something that causes you to sin.

Oh when the fire of temptation comes, you’ll soon find out what you are. Cry out to God “Search me, O God, and know my heart; test me and know my anxious thoughts” I encourage you people pray and seek for the truth. Can we say that “The Evil One has nothing in me” I know I can’t that’s a question you have to ask yourself and if he has how much does he have?
Quote: We either have the nature of God or the nature of Satan. We have no independent nature apart from one of them.

Well I could understand your point if you said we can be only influenced by God or the Devil but your saying more than that…

Scripture says “I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live” Deut 30:19

God telling us to choose which means to me we do have an independent nature that can choose between blessing or curse. I choose to believe in Christ and would say that I sought for him, was the Spirit of God influencing me to seek for Christ sure he was but I had to make the choice. We are not automatons we have a choice, choose life.

Quote: So, if Christ came to make men righteous, how does one experience righteousness as a work of the Spirit? Is this supposed to be an experiential reality in our lives or not?

Oh you have me remembering about when I first found out that God was real and that he was alive and in me, oh how happy I was to be forgiven of my sins the rejoicing and the love that flowed into me. The change in this man was “radical” as was said at the time… That was my “experience” of righteousness to be in right standing with God and I knew it was real for me.

Quote: For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 
Rom 8:14

Choices we all have to choose to be led by the Spirit, Jesus said take up your cross and follow me, we have to choose to lay our life down, Christ paid the price for Sin but we have to choose to pick up the cross and be led by the Spirit of God. Words mean nothing if it’s not a reality in your life. Paul the Apostle says “I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me” Are you crucified with Christ are you surrendered fully to the leadings of the Spirit I know I am not…

Quote: The absolute saddest part is that The church does not know that when Jesus emptied Himself and walked this earth as man - He was what He has made us.

Quote: That we have ALL that Jesus had while here, within us now.

Jesus did not have SIN in him, not one spot of it he is perfect and he will always be perfect for us. I remember something very vividly from my days as a new Christian it was a truth I believe God wanted me to understand. God starts the work inside the man and works his way out, but men start from the outside and try and work there way in.

Gods says “I will put a new spirit within them” we have as Christians a new spirit and the work has started, but we must go on from there, there must be an overcoming of habits, wicked thoughts, envy, strife, lying cheating, all unclean thoughts must be banished, all and influence and effect must be gone until we can say “The Evil One has nothing in me.

We have already seen how the old man was like an unfaithful servant who allowed the thieves to enter the home. That old man however has been crucified, put off and buried. There is a new man now within us, who says, "Behold I have come to do Thy will, O God" (Heb. 10:7).

Yet we know that it's possible for a disciple of Jesus to sin. But there is a difference between a disciple sinning and an unbeliever sinning, just as there is a difference between a cat falling into dirty water and a pig choosing to jump into the dirty water! The cat hates the dirty water, but may fall into it accidentally. The pig, however, loves it. It's all a question of nature. The disciple of Jesus has a new nature that loves purity and hates sin.

The old man wants to sin. The new man never wants to sin. But if the new man is not strong enough, he may not be able to keep the door of his heart shut against the desires of the flesh. That's not because he wants those desires. No. But because he is not strong enough to resist them. This may be, because he has not fed himself sufficiently on the Word of God, or because he has not strengthened himself through prayer.

So, there's a difference between committing sin and falling into sin. It's important to know this difference; for we can then avoid a lot of unnecessary feelings of condemnation in our heart.

The Bible says that "the one who practises sin (that is, one who keeps on committing sin deliberately) is of the devil" (1 Jn. 3:8). On the other hand, he writes to believers saying, "If anyone sins (that is, if one falls into sin accidentally), we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He is the propitiation for our sins" (1 Jn. 2:1,2).

Zac Poonen

This an interesting subject because it deals with the reality of how we live out what we claim to believe, rather than just having objective truth, but not experiential truth. "Faith without works is dead". i.e. useless/ of no benefit. Objective truth MUST result in a practical demonstration of that truth.

Paul tells us in Romans 6
"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

For he that is dead is freed from sin........... Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Neither yield ye your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God."

Seems to me that Paul is saying that we need to understand what has actually happened to us in Christ (objective truth) and then apply this truth to our lives, because it is really true! BUT he does imply it is possible for a true believer to yield to unrighteousness and sin.

Hasn't some one written a book about mortification :)

Quote: """We only can have one nature. We are now a totally new creation.
Our old nature is crucified, dead and buried!!!
It is impossible to have two natures!

We still live in a corrupted body but our body is not our nature.

Our mind needs renewing but our mind is not our nature.

We have a new heart and Christ Himself living within us."""

Me too tuc; Amen

This body is not our future body.

Our mind is becoming future by being renewed to the mind of Christ.

Our Spirit is already perfect, now and forever, it is the Spirit of Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

In Christ: Phillip

Quote: Seems to me that Paul is saying that we need to understand what has actually happened to us in Christ (objective truth) and then apply this truth to our lives, because it is really true!

Amen and Amen

Romans 6:6, “Knowing this.”

And then in Romans 6:11 he says: 
“Likewise also reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God.”

Neither yield ye your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God.

That order is logical. First of all you have to know the scriptural fact. Then by personal reckoning you have to apply it to yourself. You have to reckon yourself to be dead indeed to sin. Then by an act of consecration you yield yourself unto God.

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Quote: We sin by choice. We're self-focused.

Your so right we are so self focused, my reason for posting JIG is simply this. I don’t want to remain self-focused, I want to get to the truth, I wan’t to know and believe it. It all started in Eden when Adam ate of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil.

The Soul became the master instead of the Spirit, the order was turned around instead of Spirit, Soul and Body we have, Soul, Body Spirit following our mind, will and emotions.

When God puts that new spirit in you the work has begun, your sins are forgiven, your justified and separated unto God, but we then have to “know this” that the old man is crucified with him and then recon ourselves dead to sin and consecrate ourselves to God yield to his Spirit… It doesn’t matter whether we know it or believe it it’s true. But knowing it and believing it is going to change you and me.

As you keep walking, trusting God, God in his goodness will get you to place to let you know your condition, he’ll show you and make you aware of that sin that remains because of the fall of Adam. God has made it very real to me.

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Quote: Yet we know that it's possible for a disciple of Jesus to sin.

Yes you are so right look at Peter he denied he knew Jesus, Judas he betrayed him.

Quote: The new man is not strong enough?

But why would the new man not be strong enough the word says “born again, not of corruptible seed, but incorruptible, through the word of God, which lives and abides forever”

Quote: But if the new man is not strong enough, he may not be able to keep the door of his heart shut against the desires of the flesh.

The heart. If you study the word heart in the bible, you’ll find that it can described like this Mind, Will and Emotions thats what we also class as your Soul. This is the area we need victory in..

Now if you had said to me Spirit that would have been a different story, our Spirit is Born of the “incorruptible seed” the Spirit is the home of New Man.

The battle lies in the Soul, the Spirit wants control but the Soul is strong because Adam ate of the fruit, we had to put out of the Garden of Eden as “man became like god” Gen 3:22 and we had to be put out in case we ate the fruit of life.

We are like god to ourselves, we love ourselves, we put ourselves first, we are so self reliant, self willed, self self self.

In God's kingdom there is no place for self. There is only one cure and it’s the cross, “know it” “recon it” and believe it and yield yourself to God. That’s the key knowing it and believing it and yielding yourself to God is going to change you and me.

Christinyou,

I agree with you that our mind is not what some call our sin nature else why would God say to renew it with the Word. You cannot renew something that is inherently sinful.

I agree that our body is not our nature (sin nature) either. The body by itself is just a carton. We are told to yield our members (mind and body) to righteousness and not to unrighteousness. So, our body and mind are good and we are commanded to yield them to righteousness. They are neither unrighteous or righteous.

Our soul is not our sin nature otherwise why would God say to love Him with all of our soul. God does not tell us to love Him with all of our sin nature (soul). Our soul consists of our faculties given to us by God whereby we think, choose and express ourselves (mind, will, emotions). We express ourselves IN CHRIST, now. We are redeemed and sanctified by Christ.

Our spirit was dead in trespasses and sins and now has been made alive in Christ.

So we are joined to the Lord and are one Spirit with Him.

1Co 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

That covers body (carton, vessel, temple), soul (who we are, personality, mind, will and emotions) and our spirit.

The apostle Paul refers to our “spirit, soul, and body” (I Thess. 5:23) being kept in blameless function until the coming of Christ.

1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Where is this human nature? Where did this concept come from?

So, Colin, Here is a word study on "Nature" and "Natural" from James Fowler and I am just going to post the link here for you rather than the content as I want to keep this post short. He shows where this concept came from (not Hebrew thought, but Greek thought) and how it was then introduced into Christianity.

A Word Study of "Nature" and "Natural"
http://www.christinyou.net/pages/nature.html

And then if you get through that word study, I think you would find "Towards a Christian Understanding of Man" very useful. http://www.christinyou.net/pages/understandman.html

These two studies corrected erroneous thinking that I had somehow received as "mainstream christian thought".

Blessings to you as you read and consider,
Pilgrim