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Sin in the saints?

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PreachParsly Feb 4, 2005

I lately have noticed how many Christian openly say they sin daily and cannot help but sin. I dont understand it. If the old man is dead can you not have victory over sin? I know there is a tread somewhere that was on sinless perfection, maybe i should ready it. here is a verse i have pondered :1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. Looking at the words "we have" it can also mean to be closely joined to a person or a thing. Does this verse mean that since we are still in our natural bodies that it is very possible for us to sin and we are closely joined with our old nature even though it is dead? OR does it mean that we all have sin in our lives and cannot help it? Thanks...Josh Parsley

sermonindex Feb 5, 2005

Well this question is one many wrestle with in this hour. Paul said that all things were permitted, but not all things are profitable. When it comes to the penalty of the law, we are free from charge. But that does not give us a license to sin. Paul even asks this very question, do we take our liberty as an occasion for the flesh? What side of "the law" does our flesh operate on? See, if we are children of the Father, and I trust you are, then we are corrected by our Heavenly Father when we step out of line. What does He use as a benchmark to determine what is out of line and what is not? The moral law. His Holy Law. No law, man made or God made, has any power in and of it'self. It is not the nature of law to give power. It simply states a limit of acceptable behavior. Therefore, of itself, it can do nothing but identify behavior as being within the law, or beyond the law. The law has never been the problem with man, even before Moses. It's the sinful nature of man that is the problem. Natural law breakers. We don't need a school for it, we come fully equipped. We are able to train ourselves in it. It's not because of the law, but because of our fallen nature we inherit from Adam and Eve. We know from reading God's word that sin is a transgression of God's law. The problem of man is sin. We are not sinners because we sin. We sin because we are sinners, law breakers. Therefore we deserve death. God's justice demands the death penalty. Jesus died in our place and we become partakers of His sacrafice by faith. He then imparts His righteousness to us. Now that we ARE righteous, then what? What kind of behavior can our Father expect from His children in light of what He has done for us, blotting out all record of our sin? Will His expectations be within His moral law, or without? He has changed the desires of our hearts, but not the desires of our flesh. So as already having been made righteous (past tense) we begin to live as His children. We are told to walk after the spirit. The spirit is what has been born again. We know that the desires of our spirit are the desires of the Holy Spirit. On which side of the law would you expect that to be? Let me give you an example. Personally, I hate driving. Why? Because it's impossible for me to drive without speeding. Not that I have the peddle to the metal all the time. But my flesh just wants to fudge. If I'm not extremely careful, I'm speeding. One day, in California, I was crusing along about 70 in a 55. (My flesh was more dominant back then.) So the Holy Spirit started dealing with me. So I slowed down to a very boring 55...or so. I told Him how hard it was to try and drive the speed limit and not slip over. And just a smiggen over is as bad as a hundrend over, right? So He asked me what would happen if I dropped my speed to 50? Well, first of all Lord, I'd really be bored out of my mind, but it would be easier not to break the law. What if you slowed to 45? Oh I could drive all day and not speed, Lord. What if you didn't ever get into the car, Lahry? Lord, I would never have to be concerned with breaking the speed limit again. Well, that taught me a whole lot more than just respecting speed laws. He showed me that as christians, we often tend to live like we drive, as close to the "limit" as possible. Example: "That movie only has one sex scene in it" Or "just a few cuss words". But remember, He said that just a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. Just a little compromise and first thing you know, you are off following the flesh on the wrong side of the law. Does that make the law bad? No, it's our behavior that's the problem. God desires us to behave in a manner that pleases Him and brings Him glory. We do that when we follow the leading of the Holy Spirit. Do not be decieved, His law goes far beyond the 10 commandments. I'm not speaking of ceremonial law here, but the laws that light our paths as we walk this narrow way. The bible tells us that to know to do good and not do it, is sin. Anything that is not of faith is sin. Now we could say that this is included in the "10", and it is. Love God, with all our heart, and love our neighbor as ourselves. All commandments are summed up in that statement that Jesus made. Love is always in favor of the law, the righteous side of the law. If we live and move in love, it is far beyond the law, in opposite directions from the flesh. It's not about how much we know, but about how we live day by day. In Romans 12 vs 9 (amplified version) Paul admonishes us to flee in horror from all wickedness. In light of that I have a question for you. What side of the law would you find wickedness? Beloved, we are saved by faith through grace. That is the only way a man/woman can be saved. It is because we ARE SAVED that God places in us both the will and desire to do His good pleasure. His good pleasure is on the righteous side of the law. Keeping the law does not make us righteous. Because we are righteous, God changes the heart and gives us the desire to live for Him and in Him, far away from the law, but always on the right side of the law. Our obedience is driven by love, thanksgiving, and worship, and not by obligation. If we are busy doing His will and not our own, the law is of no concern to us. How could it be. Like driving, we could never break speeding laws if we never get into the car. That does not makes us law keepers, nor does it make us holy inside. We need a heart change. Jesus is the only One who can do that, and we get it by faith. If the heart does not change, one is simply not saved. The heart will always change toward righteousness, and that will always be within the moral law of our God. I hope this helps, beloved. Finally, many do not understand that when the spirit is born again, in God's eyes the flesh has died with Jesus on the Cross. The flesh and the spirit of man are no longer "homogenized", as too many think. They are not one and the same. In fact they are now at war with each other. The flesh will never be perfected. The wickedness of it's desires never change. We have to deal with it on a day by day basis. It's kind of like Viet Nam. The whole time we were there, we knew it was impossible to erradicate the enemy. We had to fight it day by day. We won some and lost some. But we were not overcome. Brother, we will be the same in this life. But unlike Nam, the victory is already ours. We just have to continue to subdue and put to death the real enemy of our born again being, our flesh. Pauls said walk after the Spirit and you will not fulfill the desires of the flesh. The desires of the Spirit of God within and the desires of the flesh are totally opposite one another. In other words, it's impossible to do both at the same time. To do one is not to do the other. So seek the Lord and His will for your life, walk in that, and devolop your love affair with the Lord Jesus Christ. Walk with Him arm and arm and you won't give in to your flesh or the devil. Oh yea, and when you look in the mirror in the morning, what you see is not you. What you see is what is destined for the grave. Let it go. Even so come quickly Lord Jesus.

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philologos Feb 5, 2005

Here's a link...Christian Perfection: Next Door to Heaven

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rookie Feb 10, 2005

Brother Josh quoted:1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. I see this Scripture in a different way. Sin occurs because we do not know the perfect will of God. Only Jesus did what He saw His Father do. Until we are perfected and see Him, as He is, we will not know His will until we are ressurected. So those who understand this truth know that we can not be righteous outside of Him. As we walk with our Lord, as we learn from Him, we also realize His righteousness. His righteousness becomes our possession as He imparts the understanding of "THE LIFE," to us who follow in faith.In ChristJeff

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philologos Feb 10, 2005

I see this Scripture in a different way. Sin occurs because we do not know the perfect will of God. Not at all. :-o Sin occurs because we do know the will of God and don't do it.(Joh 15:22 KJV) If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.(Jam 4:17 KJV) Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

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rookie Feb 10, 2005

Brother Ron wrote:Not at all. Sin occurs because we do know the will of God and don't do it.What does God want for you at this moment? Do you do only those things which you see your Father do?(Joh 15:22 KJV) If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.I believe this Scripture is speaking to the fact that sin is not imputed, and not that sin does not exist. Two entirely different aspects, and not applicable in this thread.Rom. 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.All men die because they transgress the will of God due to lack of knowing His righteousness.(Jam 4:17 KJV) Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.James is addressing the believer who faith has no consequence.

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philologos Feb 10, 2005

Ron B quoted(Joh 15:22 KJV) If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.Jeff writes;I believe this Scripture is speaking to the fact that sin is not imputed, and not that sin does not exist. Two entirely different aspects, and not applicable in this thread.
Sin is imputed (calculated and put the account) when law is transgressed. From Sinai the people of the Sinai Covenant were fully cognisant of the terms of their covenant; (Deu 29:29 KJV) The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.The law was revealed to them, and they knew it. Consequently their transgression of that law was measurable sin.Christ had revealed Himself to the people of his day. The saw this revelation but refused to acknowledge it. This action revealed their underlying rebellion which was no longer hidden. They knew and rejected; that is transgression. Not to know is ignorance.

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rookie Feb 11, 2005

Pretaining to the statutes that were given on Mount Sinai, wasn't there a sacrifice given for the sins not known? Secondly, you write of transgressions due to rebellion against the revealed law of God. This is another example of the manifestation of sin, not the root cause of sin. I am merely stating that we "miss the mark" because we cannot find the target unless God reveals the target. In ChristJeff

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philologos Feb 11, 2005

I am merely stating that we "miss the mark" because we cannot find the target unless God reveals the target. And I am saying that often we miss the mark not because we did not know where it was but because we did not aim for it. If God has not revealed the target how could a man be said to have 'missed' it; he didn't even aim at it. Is there any guilt in your kind of sin? Does God hold a man responsible for what he cannot know?Secondly, you write of transgressions due to rebellion against the revealed law of God. This is another example of the manifestation of sin, not the root cause of sin.Are you saying that the root cause of sin is that man does not know the law of God? Sin began in our race because Adam knew the law of God and defied it.I had understood that this conversation was relating to 'sins' not Sin. sins manifest Sin, and at the heart of all sins is a clash of wills (Sin), not an absence of knowledge.Pretaining to the statutes that were given on Mount Sinai, wasn't there a sacrifice given for the sins not known? These would be the so-called 'sins of ignorance' (Lev 4:2) It is instructive I think that the NASB translates this; "Speak to the sons of Israel, saying, 'If a person sins unintentionally in any of the things which the LORD has commanded not to be done, and commits any of them, (Lev 4:2 NASB)There is a helpful verse later which uses the same word and shows the implications; then you shall select for yourselves cities to be your cities of refuge, that the manslayer who has killed any person unintentionally may flee there. (Num 35:11 NASB)I think our system over here is different to yours. You have degrees of murder; the British system has a different crime of 'manslaughter' in which the victim did not die at the intention of the killer. The British system would have been based on this distinction. This is not a man who kills another ignorantly (without knowing) but a man who kills another unintentionally. The British system would still hold a man responsible if his victim died through carelessness, as in a motor accident, but the charge would not be murder, but unintentional killing and hence manslaughter.The people of Sinai were given the law, they had no excuse for ignorance; but they might still transgress the law unintentionally.

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UncleAlDude Mar 9, 2005

Greetings! My first comment is for philologos. Let me first state I have read numerous posts on various subjects by you and am quite -- dare I say it -- in awe. You come across as a learned man, despite your protestations to the contrary. Here in the States, we have manslaughter as well. In fact, your example of the auto would result in a charge of "Vehicular Manslaughter." For all, I don't believe we can reach a state of absolute sinless perfection in this life. We all have weaknesses to which we will yield at some point in time. Sin is best defined as "any violation of or lack of conformity to the will of God." When we have been "crucified with Christ" our sin nature -- iniquity, the old man, sin, etc. -- is put to death. When we are quickened by the agency of the Holy Spirit, our spirit, dead because of iniquity, is brought to life and is then capable of responding to God's dealings. Even still, our will is at the forefront of our lives. But as we go through the process of maturing -- sanctification -- we begin to see God's will replaceour will as pre-eminent. This should result in less sinning on our part. The First Epistle of John does not speak of perfect sinlessness (chapters 1 and 2 seem to be at odds with each other without this understanding) but of a lack of the practice of sin. Practice here speaks of a lifestyle, not an on-going attempt to master (though there is an interesting direction I could go there). John is not saying we will not or do not sin, but that sin is not what characterizes us. And when we do sin, we are sensitive to the convicting work of the Holy Spirit and respond in yielded repentance. We would do well to remember that sin is not just murder, stealing, sex outside of marriage, etc. The Bible includes outbursts of anger, gossip, lying, grumbling and complaining, enmity and more as sin. Most Christians will readily give the tired old "Don't drink, smoke or chew or run the the girls who do," while they have no trouble spreading the latest gossip or venting angrily. Sinlessness is a reality we will know when we see Him in glory, not before. The work of sanctification, approaching sinlessness, is on-going and will not be completed until He calls us home. Pray it's soon.Yours in His Blood,Alan

sermonindex Mar 9, 2005

Good news! You don't have to sin! It is right here in the bible:1 Cor 10:13 "No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it."My thoughts on 1 John 1:8-10"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives." (1 John 1:8-10)The truth is "all have sinned" but that does not mean to imply "all still sin". If any of us claim to have never sinned, we deceive ourselves and are not speaking the truth. If we claim we have not sinned, we make God a liar. But if we admit that we HAVE sinned, confess and turn away from those sins, God will PURIFY us from ALL unrighteousness. It makes sense that John was referring to past sins here and was preaching complete purification from all sin in the light of the rest of the verse and other surrounding verses of his letter in its entirety: 1 John 1:5-7 "This is the message which we have heard from Him and declared to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin."1 John 2:1 "My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And IF (not when) anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous."1 John 2:3-4 "Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, "I know Him" and does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him."1 John 2:6 "He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked."1 John 3:5-6 "And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sin has neither seen Him nor known Him."1 John 3:8 "He who sins is of the devil"1 John 3:10 "In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God".1 John 3:22 "And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight." 1 John 5:2-5 "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. For whatever if born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world-our faith. Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?"What about Romans 8:1? I noticed that those who quote Romans 8:1 never seem to finish it. They take it way out of context to excuse or justify their sin, trying to make it to mean that God will not condemn them to hell if they continue on sinning. In my NKJV, what you quoted Christopher does not end with a period but with a comma. This is what my bible says:"There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit." So those who are in Christ walk according to the Spirit and not according to the flesh! You see, there is condemnation for those who walk according to the flesh. There is severe condemnation for those men.This is consistent throughout the Scriptures: Gal 5:24 "And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires."2 John 1:9 "Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son."This is what I am saying, according to the Bible no man can have a relationship with God and yet walk in sin! To be in Christ is to "abide" in Christ. If you do not abide in Christ you will be casted into hell-fire:Joh 15:6 - "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned."Joh 15:10 - "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love," 1Jo 2:6 - "He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked." 1Jo 3:6 - "Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him" 1Jo 3:24 - "Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him"I wrote two articles on this subject, one called "Dead Unto Sin" and the other called "Naming the Name of Christ: The Sinning Saint" which are found right here at: https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=category&cid=304

sermonindex Mar 9, 2005

Here is the link on if we can obey God or not.https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=4703&forum=35#33474

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philologos Mar 9, 2005

UncleAlDude writes:For all, I don't believe we can reach a state of absolute sinless perfection in this life. We all have weaknesses to which we will yield at some point in time. Sin is best defined as "any violation of or lack of conformity to the will of God."UncleAlI would only want to modify your definition slightly, but it is really a major for all that. I would have wanted to add a single word...Sin is best defined as "any violation of or lack of conformity to the known will of God.As regards my reputation for 'learning'. I've just been around a little longer than most of you. If you can just live long enough you will see everything, twice. There is nothing new under the sun... :-D Please don't be in 'awe' just imagine us sitting together with a cup of coffee chatting.

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