Verses that supposedly point to loosing salvation examined...

I was discussing various verses with a good friend of mine that are used by those who say that one can lose their salvation and he encouraged me to post my thoughts here to allow others to comment on what I was saying to him.

So I will post the verses and my thoughts on them here...one set of verses per post, and would ask anyone who cares to comment to share their thoughts with us.

A problem that I see when looking at these verses is that many people ADD thoughts to them that are simply not warranted by what is actually said. Please stick to what is actually said in the plain meaning of what is written without encamping yourself around thoughts that are not to be found in the text itself.

Thanks.

Carlos

According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Paul is talking about building into the lives of those who have become Christians. Paul laid the foundation of the Gospel and Jesus into their lives and someone else is building on top of the foundation Paul laid.

Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work.

Paul uses the things that might be used in the physical realm to build an actual building to highlight a point about building into people's lives spiritually. That some of that which is built will survive and be proven to be of eternal worth and lasting value and some will not.

The day is most likely the Day of Judgement when God's refining fire will expose all that was built into people's lives as either of worth or worthless.

This is not the only place where Paul uses physical objects to make a spiritual point. See 2 Timothy 2:20-21 for another example of this type of analogy.

If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

If any man's work into people's lives has been built on the sure foundation of Christ and is shown to be so when it is exposed by God, he will receive a reward for his labors.

If, on the other hand, his work in people's lives is shown to be worthless he will suffer loss but he will suffer that loss in regard to his life's work and NOT his eternal salvation. He will still be saved yet will be so through God's refining fire.

Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.

This last part is the more useful to a loss of salvation perspective or seemingly so but we must be careful with our interpretation here.

We, the Christians, are the temple of God. The building of God (vs 9). If any man destroys God's temple, the church, God will destroy that man. For the temple, the Christians, are holy and that is in fact what we Christians are. Holy in the eyes of God.

There is absolutely not one thing about a loss of salvation in any of the above verses! This last verse talks about someone destroying the temple of God, the people of God and the very foundation that His temple is built on...Jesus Christ.

It is NOT talking about a Christian destroying his own life such that they lose their salvation as a result. It's talking about someone coming in and destroying the church.

Such a person will be destroyed by God but there is absolutely NO indication that said destroyer was or is a Christian and could well be an unbeliever or unbelievers.

Carlos

i agree with you bro that a true elect saint will endure till the end ,,but you are taking those verses out of it contex and aplying it to the believer ,wile paul is aplying it to apolus verses 5;6;7;8;9; are to be kept in the contex of the chapter
paul plants the foundation seed and apolus waters ,and builds upon the foundation ,,,he will be saved yet so as through fire tho his work may be burned

more then likely the destroying of the temple ,is a temperal judment and is death of the body ,in the same contex when believers are judged for not deserning the lords body in the breaking of bread and drinking of the wine ,,as paul said becase of not dersening the body ,, some are sick ,and some sleap,,,,and he goes on to say in the same chapter that this is the lords judment on the believer so that he be not condemed with the world

your right tho in saying this chapter does not speak of believers losing salvation , in my opinion

blessings

Hello Brogary, what is the purpose of the warning passages in scripture and who are those warning directed to?

Russ

Hey CarlosBGC ,

Just a couple of thoughts here.

1. There was recently a massively long thread on this issue. There have also been many, many that go down this same path. Perhaps you might research those threads in your time on SI as those topics have been covered over pretty thoroughly.

2. The topic causes so much contention that the moderators have asked that it not be discussed as it tends to consistently bring disunity and fighting. There are MANY scriptures on each side of the argument. That is why it will never be fully reconciled by us on this side of eternity. Each side has an abundance of scriptures to support their view. They simply do... and in the end they are just shooting them at each other.

3. In my 4 years on Sermon Index I have never seen anyone change an opinion. Saw lots of heated discussion... but no one changed their opinions. No one is as dangerous as a Christian who, "knows they are right", and feels it is their job to straighten out all the other believers theological leanings.

4. As far as the specific scriptures you mentioned.... The scriptures you used are not ones I have ever seen used as a basis for a person having the ability to walk away from, renounce, or lose their salvation. There are hundreds of scriptures that strongly support the Arminian view that a person could possibly renounce their faith, or turn away from following Jesus, to their own eternal destruction. However, those you posted certainly do not. Even the most hard core Arminians I know would not be using them. Your analysis of it being a judgment on false teachers who are destroying the church is 100% spot on. Paul says that exact thing in the chapter. No need to interpret it... Paul tells us exactly what he meant. That being said...there is an abundance of scriptures that DO say a person could actually be "saved" and then later "lost".... as well as other scriptures that indicate they could not.

Thus the conflict.

Blessings!

If we deny Him He will _________ us before His Father in Heaven.

That's a great exhortation, Greg.

I just have one more thing to add.

The Purpose of Grace

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and PURIFY unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works” (Titus 2:11-14).

Today, the emphasis is put on forgiveness instead of righteousness. Is there more than forgiveness? Is there freedom from sin? Or do we just slap the bumper sticker on our car "Christians aren't perfect just forgiven." What this is saying is, "I'm a sinner just like you, but I'm forgiven and you are not." Then we do whatever we want and every night before we go to sleep, we just ask the Lord to forgive us." That my friends is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And that kind of thinking is even a scandal to the world.

May the Lord help us to come under His authority, receive His truth, operate in the spirit of reconciliation and increasingly walk in righteousness.

That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; (2Co 3:18)

But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, ARE CHANGED into the same image FROM GLORY TO GLORY, even as BY THE Spirit of the Lord. (2Co 3:18)

Pilgrim

Remember, Salvation is not a commodity you own because you ascended to some belief 20 years ago. Salvation is a person that you stay rightly related to. Abiding in Him and not shrinking back because of unbelief or turning away because of persecution, offenses or bitterness.

I very much appreciate the responses but I have a few additional comments to make if I might.

My purpose in starting this thread was not to discuss but rather to find alternative interpretations of the verses in question from folks who believe they can lose their salvation and who stand on some of the verses I intended to bring up.

Yes...some discussion could occur through such varied interpretations but I have been on forums overall long enough to realize that there is very little chance that anyone will change their mind through even such limited discussion.

The problem I see in some of the responses is that it appears that some of you have come to a certain point of accomodation regarding this issue. I mean in the sense that no one has changed their mind and discussions have happened all over about it so therefore...no sense discussing it again.

That it is better to leave this issue aside and focus on other things which some of you have come to see as more important or perhaps fruitful.

The problem I see with that is that the idea of losing salvation strikes at the very core of who God has made us to be in the spirit. The very core of what the Gospel is about. And it leads in the lives of many to a lack of fruitfulness in that embracing a loss of salvation belief causes them to never be certain of God's unconditional love, absolute forgiveness, and certainty in their relationship to Him.

They are never able to get past a concern of losing their salvation and on to being fruitful in the Kingdom. This is especially true with those who are very weak in various areas of sin but where they do repent and genuinely so from instances of sin.

The only way out of their sin overall is to latch on to Christ for dear life and to look beyond their sin to Christ and to keep looking to Christ as they trust God through the Gospel and act in the capacity of the new man that God has made them to be in the spirit to put to death the misdeeds of the body.

But...they can't really do that in my experience if every time they fall they begin to think they are headed for hell all over again.

Still for me personally...it's fine if it would be advisable to not solicit various interpretations of these verses against posts where I lay out what I think is the correct interpretation on this forum.

My friend who respects many on this forum was the one who encouraged me to come here and allow what I say about these verses to be tested in the light of what others might say.

Carlos

Hi Carlos,

Since you have posted here before I just wonder why you feel like you have to keep mentioning that your friend encouraged you to start this thread?

I guess I am missing the significance of that since you are already acquainted with SI.

Sorry if I mention that too much Pilgrim.

I just was wanting to make clear why I was starting this thread. That it wasn't from a desire to actually get into an all out discussion of this topic but rather to get alternative interpretations of various verses to allow me and my friend to have a more comprehensive and well rounded discussion on this issue.

I suppose that me and my friend could always just go read some of these other threads but I at least don't really want to take the time to read potentially hundreds of posts to get various interpretations of various verses and thought it could save time.

That's all I intended to really say but I think I will just drop this thread as there doesn't seem to be much enthusiasm here to get into this.

Carlos

Hi Carlos,

Thanks for the explanation. There is probably not much interest on this topic because as you mentioned there are so many other threads about it and people are either all talked out on it, don't want to rewrite what they have spent much time writing or just plain burned out on the topic.

Pilgrim

hi russ im glad some asked me that question ,,,,it is sunday morning where i am im about to go to fellowship

brother i will give you my explanation when i get home

blessings

Can someone please provide me with a link to the BEST thread on this forum dealing with the loss of salvation perspective?

I absolutely can't stand the way this forum operates and it is difficult for me to find such a thread myself as a result but would like to see what others have said about this here.

Thanks.

Carlos

Threads are hard to find mainly because they are not categorized. That's why the same subjects keep coming up, over and over again. I actually sympathize with your plight. The webmaster probably needs some technical assistance because a good user friendly forum can be constructed and still be secure. But, it also takes time and resources.

Pilgrim

hi there russ

who are the warnings for you asked \\\\

i see a the warnings as multple purpose

one to bring the unsaved in the church to a saving repentence

we have weat and tares in the church

two as a rod of love towards the saved and secure

in the same way a loving father watches his children as they play in the frount yard near the highway
he always sees the dangers of the busy road with trucks and cars ,,and so the eyes of the father are always open on his children , and the gates are locked ,,but as a good father he warns his children not too go out the gate or else they will be destroyed by trucks and cars
but always the the good father noes he will not take his eyes off his children wile they play near the gate

and he is not lieing about the destruction that would happen if they wander beoned the gate

if he sees one climbing over the gate ,,he yells and warns them to abide in the yard ,,and folows through with a swift rubuke and strike with his rod that comferts ,,and chasens his child lifting him off the fence and placing him back in the yard

i see in scripture both absulte security in some verses that are as a prophetic promise that our god is fullfilling wile he uses warnings to acomplish and teach his children

John, Chapter 6

037:

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

038:

For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

039:

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

040:

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

these words will come to pass ,,there are a chosesn people that the father has givern the son ,and he knows who are his sheep for as we have herd they hears his voice and follow him and they shall never perish

i take these verse at face value ,and as a literl prophect promise ,,,,and the warnings in the contex i described above ,,,we are to take heed all of us ,and continualy make our call and election sure

theres some verses in the book of acts that is a perfect description or picture of th salvation of the elect ,,,

Acts, Chapter 27

022:

And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of any man's life among you, but of the ship.

023:

For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve,

024:

Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee.

025:

Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.

026:

Howbeit we must be cast upon a certain island.

027:

But when the fourteenth night was come, as we were driven up and down in Adria, about midnight the shipmen deemed that they drew near to some country;

028:

And sounded, and found it twenty fathoms: and when they had gone a little further, they sounded again, and found it fifteen fathoms.

029:

Then fearing lest we should have fallen upon rocks, they cast four anchors out of the stern, and wished for the day.

030:

And as the shipmen were about to flee out of the ship, when they had let down the boat into the sea, under colour as though they would have cast anchors out of the foreship,

031:

Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved.

we see a picture of salvation of the elect,, that they will come to a safe passage through the seas of tribulation and temtation ,,,,paul says they will be no loses of life ,,,,it is a promise givern by an angle ,and he said i believe , it shall be as it was told to me

theres is nothing that will change the councle of gods sovern will to save those whom he chose in christ ,in the boat ,all that the father has givern me WILL come to me ,and i will not cast him out

but in verse 31 we see the picture of christs word , except you abide in the ship you can not be saved
this verse is a reflection of this verse as an anoligy

thers no contraictions,,,, the first promise that none will perish ,,is a godward promise in a souvern way, the seconed is a man ward witness , in a human way

the sovernty of god
the resonsability and freedom of man

all things work according to the councel of his will

no man can come to me unless my father draws him
come to me all you who labour and are heavy laden

the whole bible is as expresion of gods sovernty in saving people
and men coming to god and and by there own semi free will abeaying god

when we see the promises
and when we see warnings

we are to see two levels of truth a higher truth ,and a lower truth ,, one is in the mind of god the other is in the minds of men
that run parale to the cross

blessings

thank you brother

i truly do not want to upset anyone ,and i respect others views on this subject ,,,and still love the fellow ship of both camps