Spiritual knowledge vs the tree of knowledge

Quote: Jimm wrote:This is where my question would appear, is the analysis of the scriptures earthly or spiritual? sfwc wrote:Undeniably the analysis of the scriptures is spiritual. But I would like to add some comments in case I appear contradictory. I do hope none of them are heretical, but if any are then feel free to correct me.1. Analysis of the scriptures involves using the brain. ->If the brain was not required at all, why have written scriptures? After all, the Spirit could simply impart the understanding to us directly without any need for such a thing.->If understanding flows directly from the text into us by operation of the Spirit, we have a similar problem.. why should I concentrate rather than just reading the words like a mantra?2. You can't understand scripture with only your brain, any more than you can take a photograph wtih only a film. Your brain is simply used by the Spirit as a tool to get the Truth into you. But it is used.3. Not only your brain plays this subsidiary role when you study scripture. For example, the emotions etc. are used. But the combination of all these things, independent of the Holy Spirit, is completely useless.Why did I mention the logicality of Paul? As a precedent, to show that spiritual matters are not exempt from profitable logical discussion.So does that mean that if I found that Paul was illogical I would reject him? Of course not: I would reject logic. But it is my belief that the Bible is entirely logically consistent (which would be astonishing for such a diverse book if we didn't know by Whom it was written), and indeed that it supports the use of logic in some circumstances (for example, the precedent given by Paul). Quote: It is easy for bible reading to become a mental exercise if we are too analytical (this lesson is largely directed towards me). As you have said, logic is for “earthly” interactions, spirit is for spiritual interactions. Thankyou for this kind rebuke. Pray that this error would depart from me completely.sfwcPS It's not Paul's apostleship which is the reason you believe what he says is it? Even apostles got things wrong sometimes. On the other hand, people who weren't apostles were used by God to write infallible scripture (for example Luke). The reason I believe what Paul wrote is that it was written by God, not that it was written by an apostle. (This is just a note; the implication is that you wrote something incorrect by an oversight rather than by having wrong beliefs.)PPS This is getting a little off-topic, so if I have made a mistake then it is probably a good plan to correct it in a different thread.

sfwcThis is quite a broad topic and I am unsure how to address it adequately without making too many assumptions of what your beliefs are. I will therefore make a few general statements to get the ball rolling. John 4:24 tells us, “God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”I would like to draw attention to the word spirit (with a small si[/]). This is not referring to the [i]Spirit (large S of God but that of man. For man to have any meaningful interactions with God he must have the same nature as God. The nature of God requires infinite descriptions but the nature described here is spiritual. Only the spiritual man can have any meaningful interaction with God.I suppose one of the greatest statements regarding man’s spirit is found here: John 3: 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.Before being born of the Spirit we did not have the means to interact with God in a spiritual way. If you are born of the spirit you have a spirit and, this spirit has intuitive knowledge. It is knowledge that has not been learned but you canst not tell whence it cometh. I know this is quite a jump to conclude that, but as I said, I wish to get the ball rolling. The knowledge of the spirit comes by revelation from God, the knowledge of the mind comes by intellectual learning To illustrate some of the descriptions of the scope of the spirit the following verses are from an exegesis by Watchman Nee in his book , “The analysis of the spirit”.The senses and functions of the spirit can be seen from the following verses:"The spirit is willing" (Matt. 26:41)."Jesus, knowing fully in His spirit" (Mark 2:8)."He groaned deeply in His spirit" (Mark 8:12)."My spirit has exulted in God my Savior" (Luke 1:47)."The true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truthfulness" (John 4:23)."He...was moved with indignation in His spirit" (John 11:33)."When Jesus had said these things, He became troubled in His spirit" (John 13:21)."His spirit was provoked within him as he beheld that the city was full of idols" (Acts 17:16)."This man was instructed in the way of the Lord, and being fervent in spirit" (Acts 18:25)."Paul purposed in his spirit" (Acts 19:21)."I am going bound in the spirit to Jerusalem" (Acts 20:22)."Burning in spirit" (Rom. 12:11)."For who among men knows the things of man, except the spirit of man which is in him?" (1 Cor. 2:11)."I will sing with the spirit" (1 Cor. 14:15)."If you bless with the spirit" (1 Cor. 14:16)."I had no rest in my spirit" (2 Cor. 2:13)."Having the same spirit of faith" (2 Cor. 4:13)."A spirit of wisdom and revelation" (Eph. 1:17)."Your love in the Spirit" (Col. 1:8).Now we can see how keen the sense of man's spirit is and how numerous its functions are. The Bible does not say man's heart senses and functions in this way, but his spirit does sense or function in this way. We must read the above verses very carefully to realize that the human spirit possesses all these functions. After thoroughly reading them, we will see that the functions and senses of the human spirit are as inclusive as those of the soul (that is, body and mind). Whether it is thoughts, decisions, or feelings, as long as it is something that the soul has, the spirit has it also.

Jimm wrote:sfwcThis is quite a broad topic and I am unsure how to address it adequately without making too many assumptions of what your beliefs are. Feel free to ask any question you like. To give you some idea of them , I'll comment on the statements you made. John 4:24 tells us, “God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”I would like to draw attention to the word spirit (with a small si[/]). This is not referring to the [i]Spirit (large S of God but that of man. For man to have any meaningful interactions with God he must have the same nature as God. The nature of God requires infinite descriptions but the nature described here is spiritual. Only the spiritual man can have any meaningful interaction with God.I suppose one of the greatest statements regarding man’s spirit is found here: John 3: 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.I can't deny that a saved person has a spirit as well as the Spirit, and that this spirit is used in interaction with God. But I would deny strongly that either the entire nature of any believer is spirit, or that anything in a believer which is not spirit is not being sanctified. I'd also like to mention that I'm not sure you can make as clear-cut a distinction between 'spirit' and 'everything else' as you are suggesting.Before being born of the Spirit we did not have the means to interact with God in a spiritual way. If you are born of the spirit you have a spirit and, this spirit has intuitive knowledge. It is knowledge that has not been learned but you canst not tell whence it cometh. I know this is quite a jump to conclude that, but as I said, I wish to get the ball rolling. The knowledge of the spirit comes by revelation from God, the knowledge of the mind comes by intellectual learning What a nice thought. Alas, I don't think that the knowledge of the mind comes by intellectual learning. My view is that this is an idealised model of how we'd like knowledge to enter minds. The spirit, on the other hand, well, yes, it does give you knowledge in a new and impossible way. By revelation from God. But it's not so different as you are implying. More on that story later.To illustrate some of the descriptions of the scope of the spirit the following verses are from an exegesis by Watchman Nee in his book , “The analysis of the spirit”.(A lot of quotations on the subject of the spirit)Now we can see how keen the sense of man's spirit is and how numerous its functions are. The Bible does not say man's heart senses and functions in this way, but his spirit does sense or function in this way. We must read the above verses very carefully to realize that the human spirit possesses all these functions. After thoroughly reading them, we will see that the functions and senses of the human spirit are as inclusive as those of the soul (that is, body and mind). Whether it is thoughts, decisions, or feelings, as long as it is something that the soul has, the spirit has it also. I am aware of the view that a man may be discretely divided into body, mind and spirit (or some other similar division). I tend to the position that this is not supported by scripture, and that the words are rather descriptive of different aspects of a person. I am willing to be convinced otherwise.Do you think that in a believer, only the spirit should be functional at any time; that we should stomp on anything else (or that 'everything else' is what is referred to as 'the flesh')? If that is what you are saying then I disagree. Finally, you have pointed out that the spirit can do thinking. Does that mean that even the spirit might use the dreaded logic? I do believe so. Indeed, it has not been unknown for my spirit to give a logical reason or point out a logical connection (though one I could never have thought up by myself). Similarly, the spirit can use external sources such as the Bible. To state the essence of my view more baldly, it is my belief that the process by which the spirit gets knowledge from God is rarely (but sometimes) so out-of-the-ordinary that it looks nothing like normal acquisition of knowledge.I have not thought about this area too much.. this may be your chance to nip any mistakes in the bud.sfwc

sfwc I can't deny that a saved person has a spirit as well as the Spirit, and that this spirit is used in interaction with God. But I would deny strongly that either the entire nature of any believer is spirit, or that anything in a believer which is not spirit is not being sanctified. I'd also like to mention that I'm not sure you can make as clear-cut a distinction between 'spirit' and 'everything else' as you are suggesting.This is a good starting point. Our human minds are very useful for many purposes. We need them to make assessments in our day to day living. The human body is not without use, it is a vessel in which to carry our spirit. There are things, which are commited to the body, and things, which are committed to the spirit. The scope of the physical is much broader than it may appear at first glance, you require a mind to exist in this physical environment. A wide range of information is processed, from remembering traffic signs to recalling manipulating processes at work. We ourselves interact in the physical world, without a body I cannot interact with anything in the physical world, including people. For me to talk to you, even in this manner on the forum I require a mind and a body. For me to interact with physical life, there must be physical life in my body. I do not ever deny the use of the God given mind. Not once. Having said that it is not as easily evident that there is also a spiritual life. It is unfortunate that the term “spiritual life” is so broadly used today but there is a very vague understanding of it. Scriptures do clearly describe two kinds of life for instance, our Lord tells us to “forget our life” and later he says that he has come that we may have life and have it more abundantly. This is clearly a different kind of life. Consider the following passage.Matthew 6:25-34 25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment? 26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they? 27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature? 28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: 29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? 31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? 32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. 33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. 34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.The things outlined are normal functions of the physical life. You have to worry (to some extent) and take care of yourself to live a comfortable physical life. No one will “toil and spin” for you, you must do this to ensure that your physical life continues. If you do not work, you do not eat- it is simple and true. We are told to neglect this temporary life however and seek after the true eternal life in Jesus Christ. This is not to say that the Christian is always called into poverty but, that might go with his calling if so be that the Lord deems this necessary to edify spiritual life for this is what the Lord seeks to nourish first and foremost. Let us remember, 1 Corinthians15:50 (Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.) Our brains also happen to be made of flesh and blood and these too will not inherit the kingdom. How unfortunate it is that most of us have our image of “self” strongly wrapped around our minds; the mind, which is the domain of the brain. There is something deeper in us and this is what the Lord seeks not our minds and all our (please excuse the term) “petty ideas”. Remember that your mind is just a tool through which you can express some of your will. This will of ours is deeper than our minds and is what we should identify our “selves” with. It is possible to think one thing and to will another. Matthew 21:28- 31 (A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. 29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. 30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not. 31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.) Now this is interesting, the one brother “thought” (a function of the fleshly mind) that he would but he was in fact unwilling; the other brother “thought” (again, the mind) that he would not but he in fact was willing. There is a will and there is a mind a person with a strong mind has a tendency to view his image of “self” with his mind. He might even think, “I am my mind” (think very carefully about that statement) this is not so. A person with strong emotions may view his emotions as his true inner self, this is one step better but it is still not spirit. The human mind and emotions are wrapped up into that elusive soul of ours. There is a soul, and there is a spirit (the plot thickens please stay with me here, I wish I could give my own testimony of how these things became mainifsested as real to in me but it would cause to much controversy, I will try to stick to scriptures). Hebrews 4:12 ( For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.) Tells us that there is a soul and there is a spirit. From scriptures the “soul” seems to relate to “life”, our “soul-life” if your will. The soul is indistinguishable from the person, it is the person, his mind and emotions (among other things but these main two are easiest to relate to so we’ll stick to them for now). You are a living soul. To summarize the soul let me paraphrase “Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology”. This is a trustworthy source and I will quote them rather than exegete reams of scriptures.The Old Testament. The Hebrew word so rendered is nepes [v,p,n]. It appears 755 times in the Old Testament. The King James Version uses 42 different English terms to translate it. The two most common renderings are "soul" (428 times) and "life" (117 times). It is the synchronic use of nepes [v,p,n] that determines its meaning rather than the diachronic. Hebrew is inclined to use one and the same word for a variety of functions that are labeled with distinct words in English.Nepes [v,p,n] in the Old Testament is never the "immortal soul" but simply the life principle or living being. Such is observable in Genesis 1:20, 21, 24, where the qualified (living) nepes [v,p,n] refers to animals and is rendered "living creatures." The same Hebrew term is then applied to the creation of humankind in Genesis 2:7, where dust is vitalized by the breath of God and becomes a "living being." Thus, human being shares soul with the animals. It is the breath of God that makes the lifeless dust a "living being"—person.Nepes [v,p,n] is often used to express physical needs such as hunger (Deut 12:20; 1 Sam 2:16) and thirst (Prov 25:25). It can be used of excessive desires (gluttony — Prov 23:2) and of unfulfilled desires (barrenness — 1 Sam 1:15). Volitional/spiritual yearning is also assigned to nepes [v,p,n], such as the desire for God (Psalm 42:1-2), justice (Isa 26:8-9), evil (Prov 21:10), and political power (2 Sam 3:21). Emotions are expressed by nepes [v,p,n] so that it feels hate (so used of Yahweh — Isa 1:14), grief (Jer 13:17), joy and exultation, disquietude (Psalm 42:5), and unhappiness (1 Sam 1:15).Clearly, then, in the Old Testament a mortal is a living soul rather than having a soul. Instead of splitting a person into two or three parts, Hebrew thought sees a unified being, but one that is profoundly complex, a psychophysical being.The Pauline Epistles concentrate more on soma [sw'ma] (body) and pneuma [pneu'ma] (spirit) than psyche [yuchv].This word has a range of meanings similar to nepes [v,p,n]. It frequently designates life: one can risk his life (John 13:37; Acts 15:26; Rom 16:4; Php 2:30), give his life (Matt 20:28), lay down his life (John 10:15,17-18), forfeit his life (Matt 16:26), hate his life (Luke 14:26), and have his life demanded of him (Luke 12:20).Psyche can express emotions such as grief (Matt 26:38, ; Mark 14:34), anguish (John 12:27), exultation (Luke 1:46), and pleasure (Matt 12:18).The adjectival form "soulish" indicates a person governed by the sensuous nature with subjection to appetite and passion. Such a person is "natural/unspiritual" and cannot receive the gifts of God's Spirit because they make no sense to him (1 Cor 2:14-15). As in the Old Testament, the soul relates humans to the animal world (1 Cor 15:42-50) while it is the spirit of people that allows a dynamic relationship with God.There are passages where psyche [yuchv] stands in contrast to the body, and there it seems to refer to an immortal part of man. "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matt 10:28). While Scripture generally addresses humans as unitary beings, there are such passages that seem to allow divisibility within unity. I have now effectively managed to loose my train of thought so I think this is good place to stop for now. I hope you will forgive the long silences but my timetable is more sporadic than I care for!James

I don't have a lot of time to reply, so this will probably be quite unstructured and rambling. Sorry.Jimm wrote:Let us remember, 1 Corinthians15:50 (Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.) Our brains also happen to be made of flesh and blood and these too will not inherit the kingdom. How unfortunate it is that most of us have our image of “self” strongly wrapped around our minds; the mind, which is the domain of the brain. There is something deeper in us and this is what the Lord seeks not our minds and all our (please excuse the term) “petty ideas”. Remember that your mind is just a tool through which you can express some of your will. This will of ours is deeper than our minds and is what we should identify our “selves” with. This is where the rubber finally hits the road in your post as far as I can tell. However, I would like to point out the problem in what you are saying. Paul points out that flesh and blood will not inherit the kingdom. So what will happen to it? Is is destroyed? Verse 51 suggests not, rather that it becomes incorruptible and thereby lasts forever. I don't know my greek too well, so I'd be interested in whether the word translated 'changed' has a meaning closer to 'exchanged' or simply changed (I suspect the latter). And there is a great deal of biblical evidence that we will be in our (extraordinarily changed) bodies in heaven. 'Yet in my flesh I will see God' or something quite like it. 'May your whole spirit, soul and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ'. And so on. I don't want to sledgehammer you and I'm sure you can support my position here better than I can.Nevertheless, it is clear that, as you say, there is more to a person than body, brain, mind, emotion and all these easily observed things. You mention the elusive 'will' and whilst I can't say that the whole person resides here either, I'd agree that's its near enough that it makes hardly any difference. I know from experience that the will is the fundamental decider. It is possible to think one thing and to will another. Matthew 21:28- 31 (A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. 29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. 30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not. 31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.) Now this is interesting, the one brother “thought” (a function of the fleshly mind) that he would but he was in fact unwilling; the other brother “thought” (again, the mind) that he would not but he in fact was willing. There is a will and there is a mind a person with a strong mind has a tendency to view his image of “self” with his mind. He might even think, “I am my mind” (think very carefully about that statement) this is not so. A person with strong emotions may view his emotions as his true inner self, this is one step better but it is still not spirit.I guess I'd interpret the passage slightly differently, in that it seems to be about what you say as opposed to what you do instead of what you think as opposed to what you will.Are you taking the words 'will' and 'spirit' as synonymous here? You appear to be. If so, why? The human mind and emotions are wrapped up into that elusive soul of ours. There is a soul, and there is a spirit (the plot thickens please stay with me here, I wish I could give my own testimony of how these things became mainifsested as real to in me but it would cause to much controversy, I will try to stick to scriptures).Sounds like it might be helpful, though. Maybe you could send it in an email or private message.I have now effectively managed to loose my train of thought so I think this is good place to stop for now. I hope you will forgive the long silences but my timetable is more sporadic than I care for!I too have lost your train of thought. I'm afraid I really couldn't tell what you were trying to say in the last portion of that post. I confuse easily, and would find it very helpful if after your argument you summarised the key points of what you are trying to say.I do not mind waiting for you to reply if you are busy, and I find that if the time available is fragmentary it can be a good plan to copy the post I am responding to into a notepad document, write my reply as time permits, possibly in fragments, and then paste the whole thing when I make a post. Sorry I couldn't contribute much, but I am confused about what exactly you are trying to say.sfwc

SfwcI have to admit that was a very poor post on my part. I was so tired I forgot what I was talking about. Perhaps the only thing worth picking up again is this. This is the explanation to the biblical reference to the word “soul”. In the Old Testament the word used is “nepes [v,p,n]” (Hebrew); in the New Testament the word is “Psyche”. This is the person’s “will”, indeed this is the person. Please read this bit of tedium very carefully. The point here is to show that the existence of the soul is not some new-age religion but is biblical. I will talk about the spirit in another post once we get pas this. The Old Testament. The Hebrew word so rendered is nepes [v,p,n]. It appears 755 times in the Old Testament. The King James Version uses 42 different English terms to translate it. The two most common renderings are "soul" (428 times) and "life" (117 times). It is the synchronic use of nepes [v,p,n] that determines its meaning rather than the diachronic. Hebrew is inclined to use one and the same word for a variety of functions that are labeled with distinct words in English.Nepes [v,p,n] in the Old Testament is never the "immortal soul" but simply the life principle or living being. Such is observable in Genesis 1:20, 21, 24, where the qualified (living) nepes [v,p,n] refers to animals and is rendered "living creatures." The same Hebrew term is then applied to the creation of humankind in Genesis 2:7, where dust is vitalized by the breath of God and becomes a "living being." Thus, human being shares soul with the animals. It is the breath of God that makes the lifeless dust a "living being"—person.Nepes [v,p,n] is often used to express physical needs such as hunger (Deut 12:20; 1 Sam 2:16) and thirst (Prov 25:25). It can be used of excessive desires (gluttony — Prov 23:2) and of unfulfilled desires (barrenness — 1 Sam 1:15). Volitional/spiritual yearning is also assigned to nepes [v,p,n], such as the desire for God (Psalm 42:1-2), justice (Isa 26:8-9), evil (Prov 21:10), and political power (2 Sam 3:21). Emotions are expressed by nepes [v,p,n] so that it feels hate (so used of Yahweh — Isa 1:14), grief (Jer 13:17), joy and exultation, disquietude (Psalm 42:5), and unhappiness (1 Sam 1:15).Clearly, then, in the Old Testament a mortal is a living soul rather than having a soul. Instead of splitting a person into two or three parts, Hebrew thought sees a unified being, but one that is profoundly complex, a psychophysical being.The Pauline Epistles concentrate more on soma [sw'ma] (body) and pneuma [pneu'ma] (spirit) than psyche [yuchv].This word has a range of meanings similar to nepes [v,p,n]. It frequently designates life: one can risk his life (John 13:37; Acts 15:26; Rom 16:4; Php 2:30), give his life (Matt 20:28), lay down his life (John 10:15,17-18), forfeit his life (Matt 16:26), hate his life (Luke 14:26), and have his life demanded of him (Luke 12:20).Psyche can express emotions such as grief (Matt 26:38, ; Mark 14:34), anguish (John 12:27), exultation (Luke 1:46), and pleasure (Matt 12:18).The adjectival form "soulish" indicates a person governed by the sensuous nature with subjection to appetite and passion. Such a person is "natural/unspiritual" and cannot receive the gifts of God's Spirit because they make no sense to him (1 Cor 2:14-15). As in the Old Testament, the soul relates humans to the animal world (1 Cor 15:42-50) while it is the spirit of people that allows a dynamic relationship with God.There are passages where psyche [yuchv] stands in contrast to the body, and there it seems to refer to an immortal part of man. "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matt 10:28). While Scripture generally addresses humans as unitary beings, there are such passages that seem to allow divisibility within unity. James

Sfwc This is where the rubber finally hits the road in your post as far as I can tell. However, I would like to point out the problem in what you are saying. Paul points out that flesh and blood will not inherit the kingdom. So what will happen to it? Is is destroyed? Verse 51 suggests not, rather that it becomes incorruptible and thereby lasts forever. I don't know my greek too well, so I'd be interested in whether the word translated 'changed' has a meaning closer to 'exchanged' or simply changed (I suspect the latter). And there is a great deal of biblical evidence that we will be in our (extraordinarily changed) bodies in heaven. 'Yet in my flesh I will see God' or something quite like it. 'May your whole spirit, soul and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ'. And so on. I don't want to sledgehammer you and I'm sure you can support my position here better than I can.Okay let us see what we can come up with here I Corinthians 15:31 I affirm by the pride in you that I have in Christ Jesus our Lord: I die every day! 32 If I fought wild animals in Ephesus with only human hope, what good does that do me? If the dead are not raised, Let us eat and drink, because tomorrow we die. 33 Do not be deceived: "Bad company corrupts good morals." 34 Become right-minded and stop sinning, because some people are ignorant about God. I say this to your shame. 35 But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? What kind of body will they have when they come?" 36 Foolish one! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 And as for what you sow--you are not sowing the future body, but only a seed, perhaps of wheat or another grain. 38 But God gives it a body as He wants, and to each of the seeds its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same flesh; there is one flesh for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. 40 There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is different from that of the earthly ones. 41 There is a splendor of the sun, another of the moon, and another of the stars; for star differs from star in splendor. 42 So it is with the resurrection of the dead: Sown in corruption, raised in incorruption; 43 sown in dishonor, raised in glory; sown in weakness, raised in power; 44 sown a natural body, raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: The first man Adam became a living being ; the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47 The first man was from the earth and made of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 Like the man made of dust, so are those who are made of dust; like the heavenly man, so are those who are heavenly. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the man made of dust, we will also bear the image of the heavenly man. 50 Brothers, I tell you this: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and corruption cannot inherit incorruption. As comfortable as I am with my body, I should be very disappointed if my “glorified body” is just this same body put back together from the dust. Perhaps the only illustration we have of a glorified body is of the Lord Jesus Himself: Revelation1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.Now I do not claim to understand everything about the resurrection but I do know this, we are not going to live in flesh and blood (our natural bodies) in heaven. It is far more complicated than I understand or can grasp. I do understand however, that it is the soul of a man, which goes to heaven or hell.Acts 2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: 26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.As for the Greek translation of the word changed (1 Corinthians 15:51 Listen! I am telling you a mystery: We will not all fall asleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.):Ajllavssw- to change, to exchange one thing for another, to transformThis is the only translation of the word and it occurs only a few times in the new testament so it is easy to asses the meaning. I will leave you to deicide on your own. Let me know what you come up with so we can compare notes:Acts 6:14 For we have heard him say, that this Jesus of Nazareth shall destroy this place, and shall change the customs which Moses delivered us.Romans 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Galatians 4:20 I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.Hebrew 1:12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.James

SFWCjust a couple of revelations I hadThis is where the rubber finally hits the road in your post as far as I can tell. However, I would like to point out the problem in what you are saying. Paul points out that flesh and blood will not inherit the kingdom. So what will happen to it? Is is destroyed? Verse 51 suggests not, rather that it becomes incorruptible and thereby lasts forever. I don't know my greek too well, so I'd be interested in whether the word translated 'changed' has a meaning closer to 'exchanged' or simply changed (I suspect the latter). And there is a great deal of biblical evidence that we will be in our (extraordinarily changed) bodies in heaven. 'Yet in my flesh I will see God' or something quite like it. 'May your whole spirit, soul and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ'. And so on. I don't want to sledgehammer you and I'm sure you can support my position here better than I can.verses 50-54 read (in the good news bible)What I mean, brothers and sisters, is that what is made of flesh and blood cannot share in God's kingdom, and what is mortal cannot posess immortality. Listen to this secret truth: we shall not all die, but when the last trumpet sounds, we shall all be changed in an instant, in the blinking of an eye. For when the trumpet sounds, the dead will be raised, never to die again, and we shall all be changed. For what is mortal must be changed into what is immortal; what will die must be changed into what cannot die. so when this takes place, and the mortal has been changed into the immortal, then the scripture will come true: "death is destroyed; victory is complete.Death kills the body but not the spirit. The body rots away and goes back to the dust but the spirit remains. This is what lives forever so when we reach eternity we will have no need of our bodies because they are not designed to live forever. The dead are raised never to die again means that the substance that is designed to live eternally (the spirit) is what shall rise again because death can not kill that spirit. In your post you also wrote "may your body etc be preserved blameless at the coming of Jesus" While the saints who will be alive at His return will see Him in their fleshly bodies, they will not remain in those bodies for the duration of eternity. that is not what the body was made for, but that is what the spirit which God gave us is for.

This is the explanation to the biblical reference to the word “soul”. In the Old Testament the word used is “nepes [v,p,n]” (Hebrew); in the New Testament the word is “Psyche”. This is the person’s “will”, indeed this is the person.OK, I still don't see why the soul and the will are the same thing. Whilst I appreciated your inclusion of the explanation of the word 'soul', I noticed that the relavant words are not generally translated 'will'. I always thought of the will as a part of the soul, rather than the whole thing. Perhaps you could explain why you identify the two.As comfortable as I am with my body, I should be very disappointed if my “glorified body” is just this same body put back together from the dust. Yes, I'm sorry I didn't mention this in my own post. Of course a part of our great hope (unique to Christianity, so far as I can tell) is that our spiritual bodies in heaven will be incomparably greater in quality than our current bodies. A quote of C.S. Lewis comes to mind: remember that the dullest and most uninteresting person you talk to may one day be a creature which, if you saw it now, you would be strongly tempted to worship. You mention that the soul goes to heaven or to hell. I do not deny that. You mention that the soul includes the body. I need more convincing of that. But I would go so far as to say that we will have bodies in heaven. Ajllavssw- to change, to exchange one thing for another, to transformThis is the only translation of the word and it occurs only a few times in the new testament so it is easy to asses the meaning. I will leave you to deicide on your own. Let me know what you come up with so we can compare notes:It seems to denote replacement with a substitute that is intended by the changer to be better. Better appears in this context to mean better in quality, rather than greater in quantity. Nevertheless, the substitute is to fulfil the same or a similar purpose to the original and to maintain some of its characterising qualities. The sense of 'betterness' is quite likely to be telling us more about the nature of people than the intended meaning of the word. What does it say in your notebook?sfwc

In your post you also wrote "may your body etc be preserved blameless at the coming of Jesus" While the saints who will be alive at His return will see Him in their fleshly bodies, they will not remain in those bodies for the duration of eternity. that is not what the body was made for, but that is what the spirit which God gave us is for. Ironman, I certainly cannot deny that the body I am in is mortal, and that if there's time before the Lord returns it will do some serious rotting. After all, death is part of the curse we are under because of sin. To dust you shall return. However, Christ became a curse for us, and one of the less impressive effects was to deal with this.Consider; Adam mk. 1 was created in the image of God, to be immortal, and with a body. Adam mk. 2 also came in the flesh, and hasn't seen corruption yet. I conclude that a fundamental part of being a person is having a body, and that God intends us to be like Christ in having a perfect, incorruptible, heavenly body. This will be given to us when at last we see Him. Can God restore a body when it is rotting? Look at Lazarus. I'm sure you don't need reminding that God is powerful enough to restore even dry bones to life. Nevertheless, to think of it in only these terms would be a childish and inadequate way to think of the ultimate resurrection of the body; the new body will be so distinctively different that it is impossible to imagine what relation it will have to the small pile of ash that many leave behind.sfwc

Can God restore a body when it is rotting? Look at Lazarus. I'm sure you don't need reminding that God is powerful enough to restore even dry bones to life. Nevertheless, to think of it in only these terms would be a childish and inadequate way to think of the ultimate resurrection of the body; the new body will be so distinctively different that it is impossible to imagine what relation it will have to the small pile of ash that many leave behind.Oh yes God can certainly restore the old body but I'm saying is that the nature of the new bod we will have will be unlike the one we know know. One that is spirit which is a thing we agree on if I interpret your post correctly.

sfwcI am reluctant to add new information to this thread until I am thoroughly convinced that we have understood each other clearly, on what has already been said. I must say I am very impressed with your ability to keep this discussion factual so far, it seems that I have made to many assumptions which I will attempt to correct now, using the same analysis given before.I would like you for a moment to consider that you had never heard of the soul and all the information I am giving you now is all you know of the soul. From the bible, we can conclude that the soul expresses itself through the body. From the bible, the soul is also subject to external stimulus. This is the definition of the original Hebrew word for “soul” form the bible. The translation is taken form, “The KJV Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon”,Nephesh- soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion a.\tthat which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man b.\tliving being c.\tliving being (with life in the blood) d.\tthe man himself, self, person or individual e.\tseat of the appetites f.\tseat of emotions and passions g.\tactivity of mind 1.\tdubious h.\tactivity of the will 1.\tdubious i.\tactivity of the character 1.\tdubious From this definition, it is clear that you are your soul. Your physical body is just a vessel through which you express your soul. This is your personality and your character. Your body and your soul are so closely linked that the two terms are almost interchangeable. This is what decides what you want to think about and feel, it is you. Consider this again. This is the occurrence of the word in the Old Testament. Nepes [v,p,n] is often used to express physical needs such as hunger (Deut 12:20; 1 Sam 2:16) and thirst (Prov 25:25). It can be used of excessive desires (gluttony — Prov 23:2) and of unfulfilled desires (barrenness — 1 Sam 1:15). Volitional/spiritual yearning is also assigned to nepes [v,p,n], such as the desire for God (Psalm 42:1-2), justice (Isa 26:8-9), evil (Prov 21:10), and political power (2 Sam 3:21). Emotions are expressed by nepes [v,p,n] so that it feels hate (so used of Yahweh — Isa 1:14), grief (Jer 13:17), joy and exultation, disquietude (Psalm 42:5), and unhappiness (1 Sam 1:15).I encourage you to do a study on the word soul, in your bible. Note carefully what characteristic are attributable to the soul and you will soon realize that the person is the soul. A person with a strong mind tends to think of themselves are their mind, a person with strong emotions tends to think of themselves as emotion, but this is not so. These are just expressions of the soul. Do you understand what I am getting at here? You must see it before we can consider talking about the human spirit. The New Testament (Greek) variation of the word is slightly different but as you see from the definition it has not lost the essence of its meaning. This is from, “The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon”1.\t- breath a.\tthe breath of life 1.\tthe vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing 1a b.\tof animals 1a 2.\tof men 1.\tlife 2.\tthat in which there is life 1.\ta living being, a living soul 3.\tthe soul .\tthe seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.) a.\tthe (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life b.\tthe soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body) This is brief analysis of the occurrences of the Greek counterpart word in the New Testament. This word has a range of meanings similar to nepes [v,p,n]. It frequently designates life: one can risk his life (John 13:37; Acts 15:26; Rom 16:4; Php 2:30), give his life (Matt 20:28), lay down his life (John 10:15,17-18), forfeit his life (Matt 16:26), hate his life (Luke 14:26), and have his life demanded of him (Luke 12:20).Psyche, as its Old Testament counterpart, can indicate the person (Acts 2:41; 27:37). It also serves as the reflexive pronoun designating the self ("I'll say to myself" — Luke 12:19; "as my witness" — 2 Cor 1:23; "share … our lives" — 1 Thess 2:8).Psyche can express emotions such as grief (Matt 26:38, ; Mark 14:34), anguish (John 12:27), exultation (Luke 1:46), and pleasure (Matt 12:18).The adjectival form "soulish" indicates a person governed by the sensuous nature with subjection to appetite and passion. Such a person is "natural/unspiritual" and cannot receive the gifts of God's Spirit because they make no sense to him (1 Cor 2:14-15). As in the Old Testament, the soul relates humans to the animal world (1 Cor 15:42-50) while it is the spirit of people that allows a dynamic relationship with God.There are passages where psyche [yuchv] stands in contrast to the body, and there it seems to refer to an immortal part of man. "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matt 10:28). While Scripture generally addresses humans as unitary beings, there are such passages that seem to allow divisibility within unity. What are your thoughts so far?

An excerpt from Watchman Nee's, "AN INTRODUCTION CONCERNING THE SPIRIT, THE SOUL, AND THE BODY"Genesis 12:5 speaks of the souls that went forth from Haran. When Jacob brought his household down to Egypt, the Bible says that "all the souls of the house of Jacob, which came into Egypt, were threescore and ten" (46:27). There are many other instances like these in the original language, where "soul" is used to denote persons. The reason for this is that the soul is the location of man's personality and the chief element of his personality. The way a man behaves is governed by his personality. A man's existence, characteristics, and life all come from his soul. Hence, the Bible calls man a soul.The three main elements included in a man's personality are his will, his mind, and his emotion. The will is the deliberating organ; it is where the power of judgment lies. It makes decisions on whether or not one will do something and whether or not one wants something. Without the will, man would be a machine. The mind is the thinking organ; it is our intellect. Our intelligence, knowledge, and everything that has to do with our mental capacity come from the mind. Without the mind, man would become totally foolish. The emotion is the organ of love, hatred, and sentiments. We can love and hate and feel joy, anger, sorrow, and happiness through our emotion. Without the emotion, a man would be senseless like wood and stone. If we study the Bible carefully, we will find that the three main elements of man's personality belong to the soul. They are all parts of the soul. Because there are too many verses, we will just quote a few to serve as illustrations.The soul includes the will:"Do not give me over/To the desire [lit., soul] of my adversaries" (Psa. 27:12)."Do not give him over to the desire [lit., soul] of his enemies" (Psa. 41:2)."Delivered thee unto the will [lit., soul] of them that hate thee" (Ezek. 16:27)."You shall let her go wherever she wishes [lit., according to her soul]" (Deut. 21:14)."Do not let them say in their heart [lit., soul]" (Psa. 35:25)."When a man vows a vow to Jehovah or swears an oath to bind himself by a pledge" (Num. 30:2)."Now set your heart and your soul to seek the Lord your God" (1 Chron. 22:19)."They desire and lift up their soul to return to dwell there" (Jer. 44:14, Amplified Bible)."The things that my soul refused to touch" (Job 6:7)."So that my soul chooseth strangling, and death rather than my life" (Job 7:15).The words "will" and "desire" in the foregoing verses show that they refer to the human will. The setting, the lifting up, the refusing, and the choosing are all functions of man's will, and they all issue from the soul. Hence, we see that the soul includes the will.The soul also includes the intellect or the mind:"I take from them...that whereupon they set their minds [lit., souls], their sons and their daughters" (Ezek. 24:25)."With despiteful minds [lit., soul]" (Ezek. 36:5)."That the soul be without knowledge, it is not good" (Prov. 19:2)."How long will I bear concern in my soul" (Psa. 13:2)."Marvelous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well" (Psa. 139:14)."My soul remembers them well/And is bowed down within me" (Lam. 3:20)."Keep sound wisdom and discretion: so shall they be life unto thy soul" (Prov. 3:21-22)."So shall the knowledge of wisdom be unto thy soul" (Prov. 24:14).Knowledge, setting of the mind, having in remembrance, etc., are all activities of man's mind, or intellect. The Bible considers all these to be from the soul. The soul includes the human intellect, or the mind.The soul also includes the emotions:The soul can love:"And you shall love Jehovah your God with all your heart and with all your soul" (Deut. 6:5)."The soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul" (1 Sam. 18:1)."And you shall exchange the money for anything that your soul desires...or for anything that your soul would like" (Deut. 14:26)."Whatsoever thy soul desireth" (1 Sam. 20:4)."My soul longs, indeed even faints,/For the courts of Jehovah" (Psa. 84:2)."That which your soul pitieth" (Ezek. 24:21)."So my soul pants/For You" (Psa. 42:1)."Tell me, O thou whom my soul loveth" (S.S. 1:7)."My soul desires You in the night" (Isa. 26:9)."My Beloved in whom My soul has found delight" (Matt. 12:18)."My soul magnifies the Lord" (Luke 1:46)."And a sword will pierce through your own soul" (Luke 2:35).These few verses reveal one function of the soul, which is to love. The desire to love comes from the soul. Hence, human love is a part of the function of the soul.The soul can hate:"So that his life abhorreth bread, and his soul dainty meat" (Job 33:20)."The lame and the blind, that are hated of David's soul" (2 Sam. 5:8)."My soul was impatient with them, and their soul also detested me" (Zech. 11:8)."My soul is weary of my life" (Job 10:1)."Their soul abhorreth all manner of meat" (Psa. 107:18).These few verses teach us that hatred is a function of the soul.The soul can be affected in other ways:"The soul of all the people was grieved" (1 Sam. 30:6)."Her soul is vexed" (2 Kings 4:27)."His soul was grieved for the misery of Israel" (Judg. 10:16)."How long will ye vex my soul" (Job 19:2)."My soul will exult in My God" (Isa. 61:10)."Cause the soul of Your servant to rejoice" (Psa. 86:4)."Their soul fainted in them" (Psa. 107:5)."Why art you bowed down, O my soul? / And why do you groan within me?" (Psa. 42:5)."Return unto thy rest, O my soul" (Psa. 116:7)."My soul breaketh for the longing" (Psa. 119:20)."My soul melteth for heaviness" (Psa. 119:28)."Sweet to the soul" (Prov. 16:24)."Let your soul delight itself in fatness" (Isa. 55:2)."When my soul fainted within me" (Jonah 2:7)."My soul is exceedingly sorrowful" (Matt. 26:38)."Now is my soul troubled" (John 12:27)."Tormented his righteous soul day after day" (2 Pet. 2:8).These few verses tell us how the soul is affected. The feeling of being affected comes from the soul.From the above verses we can see the functions in our emotions. Love, hatred, feelings of being affected, sensations, etc., all come from the soul. This shows us that our emotion is also a part of our soul.

Jimm writes:The soul includes the will:"Do not give me over/To the desire [lit., soul] of my adversaries" (Psa. 27:12)."Do not give him over to the desire [lit., soul] of his enemies" (Psa. 41:2)."Delivered thee unto the will [lit., soul] of them that hate thee" (Ezek. 16:27)."You shall let her go wherever she wishes [lit., according to her soul]" (Deut. 21:14)."Do not let them say in their heart [lit., soul]" (Psa. 35:25)."When a man vows a vow to Jehovah or swears an oath to bind himself by a pledge" (Num. 30:2)."Now set your heart and your soul to seek the Lord your God" (1 Chron. 22:19)."They desire and lift up their soul to return to dwell there" (Jer. 44:14, Amplified Bible)."The things that my soul refused to touch" (Job 6:7)."So that my soul chooseth strangling, and death rather than my life" (Job 7:15).The words "will" and "desire" in the foregoing verses show that they refer to the human will. The setting, the lifting up, the refusing, and the choosing are all functions of man's will, and they all issue from the soul. Hence, we see that the soul includes the will.I get jumpy when we designate faculties to the soul in this way. I have raised this in other threads here but I don't think these verses prove the existence of the 'will' as a separate function of the soul.

I get jumpy when we designate faculties to the soul in this way. I have raised this in other threads here but I don't think these verses prove the existence of the 'will' as a separate function of the soul.To what then do you designate the will and on what basis?James

From this definition, it is clear that you are your soul. Your physical body is just a vessel through which you express your soul. This is your personality and your character. Your body and your soul are so closely linked that the two terms are almost interchangeable. This is what decides what you want to think about and feel, it is you. Since you want more understanding of my position, this is how I would qualify what you have said: The words 'I', 'You', etc. are used in many ways and have a variety of meanings, just as the word 'soul' has. In some cases, 'I' can denote something which is not 'my soul'. However, the normal meaning of these words looks the same as that thing described by the soul. I would therefore be prepared to accept this definition of the word 'soul' if, in the interest of precision, we then agreed to only use words like 'I' or 'we' in the same sense on this thread.I encourage you to do a study on the word soul, in your bible. OK. But please don't now assume that I've done it, rather that I'm doing it (it looks like the sort of thing that would take a while). If you want to wait 'till I'm done before carrying on, I am prepared to do that.Note carefully what characteristic are attributable to the soul and you will soon realize that the person is the soul. A person with a strong mind tends to think of themselves are their mind, a person with strong emotions tends to think of themselves as emotion, but this is not so. These are just expressions of the soul. Do you understand what I am getting at here? I don't know. A good way to test this would be to try to tell you, in my own words, what you are saying. If I fail, you can be sure I don't understand what you are getting at. Here goes:The word soul is used to denote what it is that you really are. This use suggests that materialists are wrong in claiming they reject the existence of the soul; rather they should say they reject the idea that the soul consists of anything more than the body. The soul relates in a fundamental way to the body, such that the body could almost be said to be part of the soul. Nevertheless, the body is not part of the soul, since that relationship is lost at death. Other aspects of a person, such as the thoughts, ideas, emotions etc. are actually included in the soul. They are not the whole thing. For example, although a strong-willed person would be tempted to equate their will with their soul, they would be wrong to do so.Is that what you were saying?What are your thoughts so far?You are right that the NT word is used in a slightly but not seriously different way. I generally agree with you so far, with some slight reservations. I'm hoping philologos will be able to present the case for them better than I could. I don't have any big thoughts on the issue yet.sfwc

To what then do you designate the will and on what basis?I don't talk about the will because I can't see that the scriptures do. I talk about choice. My emphasis is not on.I will do somethingbut on I will do somethingWhen I say 'I' I mean what God says when He says 'you'. This presents me with the possibility of a full salvation for 'you' shall be filled with the Holy Spirit. If I convert that to my side of the conversation it means 'I' shall be filled. There is a whole theology of the bondage of the will or the freedom of the will, or a broken will, or a stubborn will, or a weak will... I just can't find any of this in the scriptures. I find that God holds 'me' responsible not my 'will'.Some will be bored with me on this topic, I have been here before. 8-)

From this definition, it is clear that you are your soul.If this were true how would God say'this night thy soul shall be required of thee' and how would the psalmist say 'bless the Lord O my soul'? They do not seem to be synonymous terms.

I don't talk about the will because I can't see that the scriptures do. I talk about choice. My emphasis is not on. I will do something but on I will do something.Okay, let us take the following passage for instance.Mathew 26:38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me. 39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.Okay, are we in agreement that human beings actually have a will? From this passage alone we can see that Jesus had His own separate will but he did not pursue it. It is clear from this verse:I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.To what then do you attribute the words “will” and “self”? I should also be interested to hear what you think the soul is. Here the soul of Jesus was sorrowful because His soul was unwilling to proceed with the next stage. He states this clearly, not as “I will”.. The sorrow of His soul tarried with the manifestation of His will, as is usually the case in scriptures. There is a whole theology of the bondage of the will or the freedom of the will, or a broken will, or a stubborn will, or a weak will... I just can't find any of this in the scriptures. I find that God holds 'me' responsible not my 'will'.This is interesting but, in this case it is not what I am referring to. I am trying to establish what the Biblical definition of the word “soul” is. I do have my own opinions but, as I said before, I will try and keep this as Biblical as possible. The definition of the original Hebrew and Greek words for the word “soul”, are also in accord with what I have conclude from the verses I have given in this thread. Some will be bored with me on this topic, I have been here before.I am sorry I missed that :-) If this were true how would God say'this night thy soul shall be required of thee' and how would the psalmist say 'bless the Lord O my soul'? They do not seem to be synonymous terms.I am sorry sir; I do not quite understand you here. Would you care to elaborate?James

Mathew 26:38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me. 39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.the word 'will' is not a noun, the will, but a verb. It is I who wills. He does not say 'according to my will' that would indicate something called 'the will'. He simply refers to an action peformable by 'I'.Okay, are we in agreement that human beings actually have a will? From this passage alone we can see that Jesus had His own separate will but he did not pursue it. It is clear from this verse:No we are not agreed that human beings have faculty of the soul called 'a will'. If he had used the word 'choose' would we have said that the soul has a faculty called 'the choice'? I think not. We would say 'I' choose, just as Christ says 'I' will.

RonB writes:If this were true how would God say 'this night thy soul shall be required of thee' and how would the psalmist say 'bless the Lord O my soul'? They do not seem to be synonymous terms.I am sorry sir; I do not quite understand you here. Would you care to elaborate?