The Trinity/Oneness Question.

The whole issue for me is settled in the following verse:1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.It states here that there is a 3 in 1 God in heaven.So, in my mind, God is both three and one, one and three. It is incomprehensible to the human finite mind to comprehend how He could be three and yet one, one and yet three. But that is what makes Him God. If I could understand everything about God, then He would not be much of a god at all.The Oneness and Trinity people need to come together and realize that they are on opposite sides of the same coin. Their both right and yet both wrong. Wrong in that the Oneness people refuse to acknowledge the 'Trinity' of God and the Trinity people refuse to acknowledge the 'Oneness' of God.When people ask me where I stand, I simply tell them that I'm Trini-Oneness. That gets their attention real fast and then they tell me that I cannot be both. However, I am both and I believe the scripture backs me up. I hope you understand what I'm trying to convey. ;-) Blessings to all who love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity and truth.dpike777

When I'm witnessing to someone, especially a Jew, I'm often asked to explain this concept. For the sake of ease of understanding, I usually compare it to a loaf of bread. (Please don't look to deep into this metaphor...I can only go so far in giving good examples.) I say to think of a loaf of bread cut into three pieces; all bread, three pieces. Ta-da.I read a book some time ago called "The Pleasures of God" by John Piper. He's rather wordy, and spent some time explaining his thoughts on the Trinity. Whether you agree or not, it's an interesting perspective to look into. The book itself was very good as well (Piper's a Calvinist, by the way ;-)).Going back to my original statement though, the question usually arises among Jews, and it's incredibly important to emphasize my belief in one God, which lines up with the primary statement of the Jewish faith: “Shemah Yisrael, Adonai eloheinu, Adonai echad — Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one.” He's the same now as He's always been. :-)P.S. Here's an awesome site to help in witnessing to Jewish friends.

dpike777, not that I disagree with you in the slightest but have you read that verse in any of these versions:NIV, NASB, ESV, Darby?

For serious study I stick with the KJV.

dpike777, as do I but some people do not use it and therefore might not accept an argument on a verse that is not in their bible.Another good verse that is not in 'newer' versions is Acts 8:37

The earliest manuscripts only read "So there are three witnesses." The rest was added in later.I don't see the reason for putting so much stress on the importance of accepting the trinity. Especially as it is a concept we can't fully understand anyway, God is hardly going to separate us on judgemnt day according to who had the best theology. Some verses to read:Mt. 17:27; 21:18,19; 21:28-31; and especially 25:31-46, copied below (KJV)31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.You see although we cannot work our way to heaven, and we all need the atoning blood of Christ, which God gives us through His grace. Despite this, we forget that God is not obligated to let us into heaven, he will only let in those who believe in Jesus, and ifwe believe in Him, won't we try to live our lives the way he told us?Sincerity and obedience to His word are what God looks for, and this is only possible if we have faith in God. "...now show me your fatih apart from works, and I by works, will show you my faith." (James 2:18) But don't fall into the trap of thinking that to 'believe in Jesus' means to work out exactly what His relationship with the Father and the Holy Spirit is, and then believe in this "You believe that God is one; you do well. So do the demons believe and shudder". (James 2:19)Sorry for the essay, but I hope you read it all and give me some comments on what you think.

HI everyone! I am new here! I was caught by this topic as I have been dealing with this issue for over 40 years. I like the bread analogy. However, one that I have found that works really well is the water-ice-steam anology. Water is the CORE of all three, water is water, ice has its core in water yet serves a different purpose and steam has water as its core as well and yet it has it purpose and yet ice and steam do not exist outside of water. Water MUST be present in order for the others to exist. It is the same with the Godhead. I know many who claim to be trinitarians but DO NOT belive in three gods but rather one. Anyway, just my input...In Christ, Betty

Ashwyn, Excellent post. I agree with you. And I think it is fair to conclude in a more general way from what you wrote, and I share this opinion, that Jesus is very practical. I also think that He is more into practicality than theory. Faith is evidenced by works.

There are several debates on this forum all dealing with the Trinity. While God is not expecting us to get our theology straight before He ascibes to us salvation, error in theology is not something to be obtained. Either Trinitarians or Oneness have at the core of their beliefs a correct view of the Godhead or an wrong view. Both cannot be correct at the same time. Certain things in theology can be considered side issues: Do you meet on saturday or sunday? Do you have communion every service? Do you dunk or do you sprinkle?. Some, however effect the very core of our belief and can lead to either greater spiritual gains or greater spiritual error.Here are some quotes in defence of the Trinity:"As this doctrine is believed on the one hand or challenged on the other, Christian life is found to be affected at its roots and over all its extent. Every doctrine is run up to it; every privilege and duty hangs on it... However a man may begin his career of error, the general issue is that the doctrine of the Trinity, proving an unexpected check or insurmountable obstacle in the carrying out of his opinions, has to be modified or pushed aside; and he comes to be against the Trinity because he has found it was against him."George Smeaton, The Doctrine of the Holy Spirit (Carlisle, Pa.: The Banner of Truth, 1980), p.5"A person who claims the doctrine of the Trinity is false because the word "Trinity" is not found in Scripture is as foolish as someone who claims 3½ inches, or, say, 5¼ centimeters do not exist because his ruler only shows whole numbers. The doctrine of the Trinity is presented in Scripture clearly enough for spiritual people to recognize, and solidly enough for unspiritual people to stumble over."Anton Hein"The fatal shortcoming of oneness theology is the fact that it must deny the personal relationships within the Trinity that appear in so many places in Scripture. (Or it must affirm that those appearances are mere illusion and not real) Thus it must deny three separate persons at the baptism of Jesus, where the Father speaks from heaven and the Spirit descends on Jesus like a dove. And it must say that all those instances where Jesus is praying to the Father are an illusion or a charade. The idea of the Son and the Holy Spirit interceding for us before God the Father is lost. Finally, oneness theology ultimately loses the heart of the doctrine of the atonement--that is, the idea that God sent His Son as a substitutionary sacrifice, and that the Son bore the wrath of God in our place and that the Father, representing the interests of the Trinity, saw the suffering of Christ and was satisfied.(Isaiah 53:11)"-Grudem, Systematic Theology, pg242.In Christ,Jeremy Hulsey

Quote:"Either Trinitarians or Oneness have at the core of their beliefs a correct view of the Godhead or an wrong view. Both cannot be correct at the same time."Could they be looking at the same mystery but describing it in different ways? So that in some ways both may be right and wrong? Thus it remains a mystery?

Praise the Lord Jesus!It is rather sad that our trinity friends have so much animosity against their Oneness brethren and all because they cannot use any real scriptural evidence to suuport their theory. They take for truth that there is a trinity of persons in the Godhead even though the Bible clearly states that there is only one.Deut. 6:4 Eph 4:4-6 and many other texts. From the beginning of the creation there has been and only ever will be One God, as you may have noticed I am an "Apostolic Oneness Jesus Name" believer.Being once and for many years an Assembly of God Pastor, trained in the trinitarian Bible Colleges and preached and taught this error.I have tried in vain many times to ask Theology professors who had quite marvelous academic credentials to explain the trinity and they always came back to the same answer." Just believe it brother don't try to understand it"Not a good enough answer!The Bible has the answers and if you don't mind brethren, before you condemn me to the pit for my beliefs as the Catholic church did to so many, both physically and according to them spiirtually, The Lord has saved my soul, I am a born again, blood washed, spirit filled believer, fully repented, baptised in Jesus name for the remission of sins and filled with the Holy Spirit with speaking in an unknown tongue as the Spirit gave me utterance.How dare you bring judgement on a child of God. Do you sit that high that you can judge all men?I thought that only the Lord could do that, oh thats right Jesus is the only one who can do that.Guess what, I preach and pastor in an Assembly of God Church here in Australia, thats right, a Oneness Preacher in a trinity church and you know what brethren even though I preach and teach the truth, I don't try to place barriers up, and the anointing of God comes down and people give their hearts to Jesus and repent they from their sins.WOW can they really be saved?Yes and it is not by the trinity or by the Oneness but by the grace and mercy of God through the Blood of His son Jesus.Stop trying to do the devils work and start doing the Lord's, you spend so much of your energy ranting about the differences that you are of no earthly or heavenly good.You know what God saved me by grace and that grace I want others to find, so I share it around as much as I can in God's will, why don't we all stop the nonsense and get moving in the right direction - THAT happens to be GODS!With all my Christian ( There I said,I AM a CHRISTIAN)Love in Christ Jesus to all my Trinitarian and Binatarian Brothers and Sisters.PS I Hope you don't take to much offense at my short note. UNITY LOVE PEACE JESUS to you all.Pastor David J Ware

Thanks Pastor Dave,While I agree with the essence of your reply and attempt to hold to the thought of: "In essentials unity, non-essentials liberty and all things charity"...I still have some questions.First, what exactely is the "Oneness" belief?Where does it differ from a "Trinitarian" belief according to your point of view?Second, I don't believe that How dare you bring judgement on a child of God. Do you sit that high that you can judge all men?I thought that only the Lord could do that, oh thats right Jesus is the only one who can do that. anyone here is bringing that kind of accusation, why would you say that?Being once and for many years an Assembly of God Pastor, trained in the trinitarian Bible Colleges and preached and taught this error.and Stop trying to do the devils work and start doing the Lord's, you spend so much of your energy ranting about the differences that you are of no earthly or heavenly good.Isn't this a contradiction?I hope you also realize that I am not attempting to provoke here, just clarify,Lastly, one of the questions that I have always had in regards to this whole subject is;If God is one (and I do believe He is) and nothing could be taken away from Him in any sense with out reducing His totality, thus making Him less than Himself and therefore not God. Does it not follow that Jesus and the Holy Spirit also must share equality with the Father in all totality?Is this not the essence of this whole thing?Mike

This debate has been well fleshed out in more than one part of this forum; so to save myself some time in typing here are some links that will take you to all the discussions:Trinity and Hebrew grammarChrist was only God inside the flesh?The Bible clearly states that there is only one God. But it is also clear in the relationship of the Godhead being existant in three distinct persons.Deut. 6:4 "Hear O Israel, the LORD our God, the lord is one." That verse, *in no way*, dispells the trinity. The words for God in this verse-one is singular, and one is plural-can imply a plurality in the Godhead. NOT a plurality of gods, but a plurality in God that is totally united. I won't get into "plurality of majesty". I already discussed that in another debate."Eph 4:4-6 and many other texts."Ephesians 1:2,3 "Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father *of* our Lord Jesus Christ...Yes there is only one God, and Ephesians speaks of The Father, and of Jesus Christ as two distinct individuals. Now either one is God and one isn't, or both are God.One argument given against the Trinity is that it is not explicitly taught in the scriptures. Yet you apparently believe in the initial physical evidence of the baptism into the Spirit, however, you cannot give me one shred of evidence at any one point in the scriptures where the initial physical evidence is explicitly taught. Yet you seem to believe in that. It is simply implied by the pattern laid down in the book of Acts. The same is true of the Trinity but it is implied so much more in the scriptures as to not be worth comparing.(I am Assembly of God USA and believe in the initial physical evidence also b/t/w)If we threw out every doctrine that was not explicitly taught, we would have to throw out much of our doctrine of God. The Bible is NOT a textbook. It is a collage of writings all collected together over time. There are historical books, poetic books, wisdom literature, prophetic books, hymnals(psalms), all showing God active in time and history and in the lives of individuals and nations, giving us paterns for faith and belief. There is no 1,2,3 method about scripture. To look at only one scripture and base your whole belief on that lone passage is to shut your eyes to the rest of the Bible. Deut.6:4 tells us that there is only one God, but John 1:1 gives us a clearer picture as to His person. Clearly, the Word was God, and was with God at the same time. Showing two distinct persons yet one person."How dare you bring judgement on a child of God."I would say, "How dare you say I'm judging people." I'm not judging people, but I and every other Christian has the right and responsibility to judge teachings according to scripture. What ever happened to being called a noble Berean? I have looked at the Oneness teaching and found it dreadfully wanting according to the scriptures. Once again, our argument isn't whether there are more than one god, but about the one and only God and His nature of being.Why should we have a right view of God? A W Tozer gives a good answer in "Knowledge Of The Holy": "It is impossible to keep our moral practices sound and our inward attitudes right while our idea of God is erroneous or inadequate. If we would bring back spiritual power to our lives, we must begin to think of God more nearly as He is."And Gregory L. Crosthwait writes: "First of all, if we understand God to be self-existent, eternal, and personal, characterized by such an action as love, then a mono-personal God cannot be adequate, for love demands an object. Consider Deuteronomy 6:4-5: "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one! And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might." The first part of this passage is one of the great texts affirming the essential unity of God. And love is the proper human response to Him. This love is not some squishy feeling, but rather an expression of devotion from someone to someone. Love has a source and love has an object. Since human beings are created in the image of God, then He must be capable of love in His very self. So, when we hear, "God is love," (1 John 4:16) we must realize that in Himself God must be at least two. Scott Horrell writes, "In short, it seems from every vantage that for God to be infinitely personal and to be love, he must exist as at least two persons. A mono-personal God is not 'big enough' to be God."The Trinity needs to be re-grasped by believers again today. It needs to be taught in our churches once again to our people so they can see just how great our God is.Some good articles to read are :The Council of NiceaWhat Difference Does The Trinity Make?Why We Should Believe In The TrinityIn Christ,Jeremy Hulsey

How can you be a 'oneness Penteocostal' and in the AoG in Australia. I am also in the AoG in Australia and we are distinctly trinitarian and if you are there then you must be covering it up or lying.

There is an aspect of this debate which I think could repay some thought. I can best explain by unpacking a couple of verses.Romans 5:24,25 “being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God;”This states that God set forth Christ Jesus to be a propitiation… For the Trinitarian this is reference to 2 persons of the godhead in the work of the cross. According to this verse Christ IS the propitiation; the price paid to remove the cause of the offence with a view to reconciliation. (BTW there is a wonderful use of the word ‘kaphar, atone’ in Gen 32:20. Jacob says “I will APPEASE him with the present that goeth before me, and afterward I will see his face; peradventure he will accept of me.” For the preachers among us, this is a perfect bible illustration of ‘propitiation’. God has made ‘atonement’ in that He has displayed Christ Jesus as ‘the propitiation’. The resurrection proved the acceptance of the value of the price paid and we can now look Him in the eye and know that we are accepted in the Beloved One.A second verse is Hebrews 9:14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? Again for the Trinitarian this is a reference to all three persons of the godhead in the work of the cross. I really can’t get my head around the idea that Jesus offered himself TO himself THROUGH himself.The essence of the price paid was Christ’s separation from His Father. Throughout His earthly walk he prayed constantly to Abba, Father. It is a recurring reference to the intimacy of their relationship. I can’t get my head around Christ calling Himself “My Father”, either. (or, for that matter, the Father calling Himself “My Son”) Psalm 22 is the testimony of Jesus (which is the ‘spirit of prophecy’ according to Revelation 19:10) and it begins with the most terrible expression of separation; “My God, my God, why has thou forsaken me.” This is testimony to an I-thou relationship which has been enjoyed but is now lost. It is impossible for a single individual to have an I-thou relationship, unless he is extremely sick or worse. Notice that for the only time in the history of Christ’s earthly walk and relationship it refers to My God, rather than My Father. At this point the price was paid. His relationship with His Father was forfeit in payment for a world’s sin. 2 Cor 8:9 “For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.” His ‘riches’ was His unique relationship with His Father. His poverty was what the theologians call ‘the cry of dereliction’. He lost the right to call Him Father in order to buy that right for me.Oneness theology undermines this whole vein of truth. WKIP

Notice that for the only time in the history of Christ’s earthly walk and relationship it refers to My God, rather than My FatherNever really picked up on that before. His poverty was what the theologians call ‘the cry of dereliction’. He lost the right to call Him Father in order to buy that right for me.Are these meant to be tied together, 'the cry of dereliction' with losing the right to call Him Father? Just curious.Also, this is assuming that forfeiting His right to call Him Father was only up to the point of His death, not after He rose. For instance John 20:17 "....Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father;...."

Hi crsschkmy posting: His poverty was what the theologians call ‘the cry of dereliction’. He lost the right to call Him Father in order to buy that right for me.your quote: Are these meant to be tied together, 'the cry of dereliction' with losing the right to call Him Father? Just curious.The cry of dereliction or abandonment is the expression of the lost intimacy which came as a result of sinbearing. Rom 4:25 says (literally) "who was handed over/abandoned for our offences". This is another statement that demands an answer from our Oneness brethren; who abandonded Him? If Father, Son and Spirit are successive modes of the One God how could He abandon Himself?your quote: Also, this is assuming that forfeiting His right to call Him Father was only up to the point of His death, not after He rose. For instance John 20:17 "....Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father;...."Absolutely. In the unbroken fellowship of Father with Son we only ever hear Abba, Father. At this hinge of history that relationship changed for an eternal moment. Moments later He reverts to using Father saying "Father into thy hands I commend my spirit." This is what makes the single use of "My God" so striking.