Pastors Should Change This

Recently on SI someone posted that he was thinking of taking a post as a pastor for the first time and asked if anyone had any advice for him. It got me thinking about the churches i've been in and the things i have witnessed, including church splits. I know of local churches where fornicators are never confronted, though they attend regularly as members (no, the pastor cannot plead ignorance when the girl shows up at church fully pregnant and unwed!), i've been in a church that was all about money, and also a church where the richest person in the congregation was also the pastor's closest friend in the church. I've seen too many instances where money controlled the pastor in some way shape or form. I don't know many pastors who are going to confront someone in their congregations who they know is giving hundreds and hundreds of dollars to their church (and thereby paying their wages and their kids' future college tuition, bills, etc)for their sin.

I think it would be a good idea for pastors to make it mandatory that all money given by members and visitors be given anonymously. That means, NO CHECKS. NO ENVELOPES stuffed with cash,letter and return address.

On the other hand, i used to be afraid of giving money in the offering plate cuz i didn't trust someone not to steal out of the plate, so i wrote checks instead. It wouldn't be the first time that has happened. One deacon from a local, large baptist church was caught embezzling $$ from that place and kicked out and then came to our church and made his way into a deaconship there so no one can tell me there are no thieves or judas' in the churches.

I think the offering plate itself should be changed; instead of a plate, a can with a lid (taped) and a slit/slot in the top, so that people can't easily, secretly purloin out of it.

When a pastor can be free of knowing who is paying how much, if at all, then he can be free to confront sin, speak his mind, and not be prone to partialities of any kind.

My current pastor never knows how much people give, one of the reasons I enjoy my church. He doesn't care about the money because he doesn't handle the money. Only one person knows how much anyone gives and that is the treasurer and they well trusted and a long time member of the church.

At my old church it was all about the money, they kept records of giving and who gave how much. I was pulled into the office along with a few other people of the church because we weren't giving enough money. I explained what I believed was right and left the church when they told me it would be best if I resigned.

I don't understand why it even has to be a collection plate that we pass around. I believe Zac Poonen does it the most biblical way in terms of offering. He has a box with Matthew 5:23-24 posted on it:

"23 “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, 24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift."

His congregation can go at anytime before or after the service and place their offering there in the box.

At my old church I believed in giving in secret and so I never placed my name on the envelope and so my records showed a false amount of money, because I believe in not letting my right hand knowing what my left hand is doing.

All in all Pastor should never look at who is giving and how the funds are doing, in my opinion of the scriptures that is what the Deacons were called to do.

One thing I would add if I could give an opinion of Pastors today is, I believe it would benefit them to be Bivocational in practice. Paul made tents AND preached the Gospel why? So he wouldn't be a burden to the Church. I don't know I guess I see it also as a way for people to connect even more with the pastor on a personal level especially the blue collar working class male.

MGULDNER,

Thank you for that rich and excellent response. Wow, amazing stuff there. And i agree with you also on your idea of pastors being Bivocational. Yes, i believe they should hold a regular ("real") job along with everyone else. This has long been one of my complaints also. Not to mention the fact that most of them take Mondays off (to rest from Sunday church services! how many of US get Mondays off to rest from Sunday service? And believe me, i have had MUCH harder jobs. Even a job where i was on my feet all day for 8-10 hours per day.)

The last church i checked into years ago was a small Baptist church. I called the church first and also met the pastor and his wife before i ever attended for the first time. Then one Sunday evening i went for first time and i decided before i went in that i was leaving my money in the car and that i was going to test the pastor/church to see how they would treat me when they saw that i did not put anything in the offering plate. I wanted to know if they would still care for me or be so nice to me if i didnt give them any $$ ...to see if it was all about the money like i had found others to be....Well, the service was so small that night that only myself and 2 or 3 other people showed up!! So when i didn't put anything in the plate it stood out bigtime. And sure enough, after the service the pastor mingled but he would not speak to me at all. Instead he hovered over a woman nearby who made a big deal abut writing a check to him and it was like he couldnt get that check fast enough. He was glued to her like white on rice. He never took his eyes off her and her checkbook. I stood there waiting for him or his wife to say something to me before i left but it was clear i was being given the cold shoulder. My little test proved my suspicions right. Of course i never went back. But i also recall that i had NOT felt a real peace in my heart about going there in the first place but had not understood why and had thought it was all just me. Maybe God really didn't want me to go.

I believe a lot of small churches are pushed into this, at one point in time it had many members and so it expanded and built a bigger building, eventually people left or the church stopped growing and bam we now have a congregation that has to not only support a pastor but also the utilities of a building built for 150 when only about 20 to 30 people attend.

We look at the New Testament and what do we see? Growth happens and is the first thing they do is build a great big building to house everyone? No instead they break into smaller groups and meet in houses. They did have a gathering of elders and deacons I believe but even then this group would accomadate those that met. People use Paul preaching in an amplitheatre and Synagogues as justifications for building great big churches BUT those were 1. Free Public Access or 2. A known place of teaching.

I live in a town now of about 3,400 and within the city limits there are 8 different churches only 2 I know of fill up on Sunday and isn't struggling for money.

Pastors and church goers a like need to rethink and look at what the New Testament church really looked like and be senseable in how we operate. At my old church I knew where my Tithe went utilities and the pastors pocket and when giving was down the pastor would dust off the ole tithe message and inform us that God can't bless someone who isn't giving.

Back to the Bivocational pastor, I see it as a good idea maybe not for a full time job but perhaps a part time one. Although I also believe Pastor take on too many roles within the church and if properly delegated (ie a pastors job, equipping the Saints) they wouldn't have a full time job as a pastor.

When I felt like maybe God called me to Pastoring I was ambious and rearing to start up a church that looked more like the New Testament church. What I found is saddening many people not interested in be like the New Testament Church...why? because it requires everyone pulling their own weight, it also requires that everyone throw all recognition and praise of men out the window.

I think the whole tax deduction thing is spurious at best. Some people don't give unless they get a tax deduction. And more evidence of the Church (religious systems) married to the Political System (A woman rides the beast, Rev 17), is that when you become a 501-3c (tax deductible) organization, you are actually becoming a ward of the state. So, many churches are wards of the state and to prove this anyone of you can remember reading just about anywhere that when a church starts calling out the sins of government or a particular leader that there tax deduction is them imperiled and they receive threats from the IRS.

And that just proves my point that if you take something from the Government, you always have to give something to them, too.

In the case of Religious 501-3c organizations, they give up some autonomy/freedom. And that is just another picture of the adulterous relationship of the religious system and the political system.

In a house church you usually know who has needs because you know everyone pretty intimately and no one cares about tax deductions and we don't worry about the government.

I did have brief foray into the Institutional Church system and back in 1985, I thought I had found a pretty good church. Great preaching, great worship, wonderful people and great evangelistic programs. What more could a person want!?!?

After about a year, I was asked to join the staff as an elder. I really did not want to do it, but after praying about it I consented. So, there was a Pastor and 4 elders. I now was "privileged" and got to go to the Pastor and Elder's meetings once a week. I say privileged because no other brothers got to go. Just the Pastor and the Elders. My education on the inner workings of the IC (at least this particular one) was going to be interesting.

Over the next year, I observed many things.

1. I was invited to functions I had never been invited to before. Indeed, I had never even known about. Picnics and outings with the Pastor and the other elders. The church staff and worship team would be there, too. None of the regular church members would ever be at these outings.

2. Private lunches with influential and affluent members of the church.

3. Exposure to decisions made within the elder's meetings that no one else had any input in.

Now, my role as "elder" was over the "Sanctuary Ministry" and I had about 106 people "under me". The Church Bookstore, the Ushers, Hostesses, and all the different "Helps and Services" of the Church were under me.

All the everyday "pew sitters" were the people I hung out with. They were my friends. And yet, God had thrusted me into a world within a world. I was part of the exclusive staff with all of their exclusive parties and barbecues and what not and yet I was part of the world of the everyday pew sitter and tither.

This all bothered me quite a bit. I guess the straw that broke the camel's back was that I was privy to information the pew sitters were not privy to. And this is where I had a confrontation with the Pastor.

I came to know from our Elder's meetings with the Pastor that this church of about 500 people brought in quite a bit of money every Sunday and Wednesday. It boggled my mind. I was also invited many times to Pastor Nick's home and while there I noticed that it was being upgraded and remodeled all of the time (it seemed). In our Elder's meetings there was never any discussion about funds and it just seemed that Nick arbitrarily helped himself to the church funds at will.

I do remember in Sunday services where he would make a show of bringing up 2-3 families and blessing them with a gift from the church of many grocery bags filled with groceries. I knew what the church brought in and I thought that was tokenism to the pew sitters to show them how generous the church was.

I was coming to a point of "critical mass" within myself and one evening during our elder's meetings I questioned Nick on something.

I said, "Pastor Nick, the Lord really blesses us financially and Praise the Lord for that. What do you think about sowing the money back into the lives of the Sheep? There are many that I know who we could help move out of a bad part of town to a better apartment. There are others that could use some help in going to a trade school or other kinds of training." And I said some more, but you get the gist of it.

Let me tell you, if looks could melt, I would have been a puddle right there and then. You see, I made the mistake of "touching the money" and when I did that, I really found out where Pastor Nick really lived.

I will spare you the details but I was pretty much persona non grata after that. To get back into Nick's good graces I would have had to grovel at his feet and become a "company man". I noticed that I was not invited to anything anymore (punishment to chastise me) except the elder's meetings. But there was definitely a chill in the air in those meetings.

Well, the Lord revealed the ugliness of it all to me, and I just wanted fellowship and to see my fellow brothers and sisters encouraged in the Lord and treated with honesty and love. What did I do? I left quietly. I did not complain or cause a church split. I just walked away. I don't know how Nick broke the news, but knowing Him, I am sure it favored him and "his work" for the Lord.

Was I bitter? Absolutely not! I was relieved! I felt free. But, I did feel bad for all the other people, however I could not tell them anything. As Nick was acting in the flesh and being demonic, I thought it would be just as demonic to cause a church split, so I just moved on.

Flashback: When a person becomes a "member" at this particular church they are given 52 envelopes. One for every week of the year. The envelopes have a number on them and it is tied to their name in the church database. I found out also that every Monday, a report of the Churches "tithes and offerings" taken on Sunday is supposed to be on Nick's desk on Monday. He knew how much each individual gave that past Sunday. I don't think the individuals in the church knew that.

By the way, he was a very popular Pastor in this city.

To this day, I have never mentioned to anyone his name or the church. It was a good lesson to me about the marriage of religion and politics and how money and power can take over a man.

Pilgrim

Yeah, that's the key, Jeff. "not bitter, not proud, just not gonna bow the knee".

God's school of the Spirit is not pain free and I have had quite an education (lots of pain) in the house church model, too.

I have lamented like Jeremiah many times:

Jer 9:1 Oh that my head were waters, and mine eyes a fountain of tears, that I might weep day and night for the slain of the daughter of my people!
Jer 9:2 Oh that I had in the wilderness a lodging place of wayfaring men; that I might leave my people, and go from them! for they be all adulterers, an assembly of treacherous men.
Jer 9:3 And they bend their tongues like their bow for lies: but they are not valiant for the truth upon the earth; for they proceed from evil to evil, and they know not me, saith the LORD.
Jer 9:4 Take ye heed every one of his neighbour, and trust ye not in any brother: for every brother will utterly supplant, and every neighbour will walk with slanders.

But I have found some families (actually He has led me to some) that have all gone through different things yet similar in many ways. Through the Lord's school of the Spirit (you can't get this in Bible schools), he has chiseled us down so that he can fit us together in love. And more importantly, that we would all look to Him and not man.

And, I guess that is also the key to this whole walk with Him and who He is really working on. ME!

He is REALLY working on me through all of this so that I can be a stone, properly fitted for His building (church).

Pilgrim

I was reading Mark 8 and something occurred to me that I had never seen regarding the Shepherd and the Sheep and those that are appointed as "leaders" over the sheep who are supposed to feed them. Here is the text:

Mark 8:1 In those days the multitude being very great, and having nothing to eat, Jesus called his disciples [unto him], and saith unto them,
Mark 8:2 I HAVE COMPASSION ON THE MULTITUDE, because they have now been with me three days, and have nothing to eat:

Mark 8:3 And if I send them away fasting to their own houses, THEY WILL FAINT by the way: for divers of them came from far.
Mark 8:4 And his disciples answered him, From whence can a man satisfy these [men] with bread here in the wilderness? (Jesus you gotta be kidding, we can't help these people)

Mark 8:5 And he asked them, How many loaves have ye? And they said, Seven.

Jesus waited 3 days before He brought to the disciples attention that the multitude had physical needs that needed to be taken care of and the Lord was interested in not only their spiritual needs but their physical needs, too. Yet, He waited 3 days. Is it because He was waiting on His disciples to recognize that?

So Jesus calls His disciples unto Him. He is always calling us unto Him to impart His heart to us. And what did He want to impart to the disciples? His compassion for the multitude. Why didn't the disciples have this recognition of the multitude's needs? Is it because they were doing just fine in the area of "food"? After all, Jesus brings out the fact that the disciples had bread. It never occurred to the disciples that the multitude might be hungry, because the disciples were evidently not hungry and were getting their needs met just fine.

You have to admit that Jesus was very gentle with the disciples in this situation.

God was not so gentle in Ezekiel 34:1

Ezek 34:1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Ezek 34:2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; WOE BE TO THE SHEPHERDS OF ISRAEL THAT DO FEED THEMSELVES! SHOULD NOT THE SHEPHERDS FEED THE FLOCKS?

Ezek 34:3 Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool, ye kill them that are fed: [but] ye feed not the flock.

Ezek 34:4 The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye bound up [that which was] broken, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost; but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them.
Ezek 34:5 And they were scattered, because [there is] no shepherd: and they became meat to all the beasts of the field, when they were scattered.
Ezek 34:6 My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek [after them].
Ezek 34:7 Therefore, ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD;

Now, read the rest of Ezekiel 34 and consider what your true Shepherd is like.

Ezek 34:8 [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely because my flock became a prey, and my flock became meat to every beast of the field, because [there was] no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my flock, but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock; (God's people and their resources are taken advantage of by False Shepherds)

If God does not have your attention, He repeats Himself.
Ezek 34:9 Therefore, O ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD;

Ezek 34:10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I [am] against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.

God is delivering His people from their hand, today.

Ezek 34:11 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, [even] I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.
Ezek 34:12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep [that are] scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.
Ezek 34:13 And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country.
Ezek 34:14 I will feed them in a good pasture, and upon the high mountains of Israel shall their fold be: there shall they lie in a good fold, and [in] a fat pasture shall they feed upon the mountains of Israel.

Ezek 34:15 I will feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord GOD. (He will bring peace and rest to His sheep, and deliver them from the wolves).

Ezek 34:16 I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up [that which was] broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment.

Ezek 34:17 And [as for] you, O my flock, thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats.

Ezek 34:18 [Seemeth it] a small thing unto you to have eaten up the good pasture, but ye must tread down with your feet the residue of your pastures? and to have drunk of the deep waters, but ye must foul the residue with your feet? (false doctrine and traditions of man foul the good water, the pure Word).

Ezek 34:19 And [as for] my flock, they eat that which ye have trodden with your feet; and they drink that which ye have fouled with your feet. (No wonder they are sick).

Ezek 34:20 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD unto them; Behold, I, [even] I, will judge between the fat cattle and between the lean cattle.
Ezek 34:21 Because ye have thrust with side and with shoulder, and pushed all the diseased with your horns, till ye have scattered them abroad;
Ezek 34:22 Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle.
Ezek 34:23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, [even] my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.
Ezek 34:24 And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken [it].

Ezek 34:25 And I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause the evil beasts (religious demons) to cease out of the land: and they shall dwell safely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods.

Ezek 34:26 And I will make them and the places round about my hill a blessing; and I will cause the shower to come down in his season; there shall be showers of blessing.
Ezek 34:27 And the tree of the field shall yield her fruit, and the earth shall yield her increase, and they shall be safe in their land, and shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I have broken the bands of their yoke, and delivered them out of the hand of those that served themselves of them.
Ezek 34:28 And they shall no more be a prey to the heathen, neither shall the beast of the land devour them; but they shall dwell safely, and none shall make [them] afraid.
Ezek 34:29 And I will raise up for them a plant of renown (JESUS), and they shall be no more consumed with hunger in the land, neither bear the shame of the heathen any more.

Ezek 34:30 Thus shall they know that I the LORD their God [am] with them, and [that] they, [even] the house of Israel, [are] my people, saith the Lord GOD.
Ezek 34:31 And ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, [are] men, [and] I [am] your God, saith the Lord GOD.

I could comment on every verse, but suffice to say, that the disciples eventually understood the Lord's heart for the multitude and Praise God for that. God can change our hearts and impart His own to us and we see this in the Apostle's lives.

Pilgrim

I am curious if maybe it was a common practice to some degree carry provisions for 1 or 2 days during that time. I don't know it definitely seems the disciples did, so that made me think maybe it was just something everyone did the multitude just didn't bring more than 3 days worth.

Or perhaps the multitude started complaining or making their needs known on the third day, you have to be hungry before you want something to eat.

I read an article about discipleship and huge churches where the pastor is too thinly spread. The article said that you can really only have 12 deep meaningful relationship within your lifetime with individuals you teach and share everything about yourself to. Christ had his 12 and though he taught many the 12 were always his focus in terms of making sure they got the message.

What we see today is a "sheperd" taking care of hundreds with all their needs, what I believe is the biblical structure of the church(I'm no expert) is a system of multiple elders who spend a majority of their time discipling and equiping small groups of people each responsible for 6 to 12 individuals. Like really pouring into those lives and helping them mature and grow in Christ Jesus, to at some point take on 6 to 12 individuals of their own. All the elders keeps the others in check and as a unit with Christ as the head leads the body of Christ. What we see today is the One Man Show method which to me just isn't correct.

I think that is possible, Matt. However, if they did have food for the first two days, I don't think they would have fainted if Jesus sent them away after not having food for one day. Unlike many today, they were a very active people walking everywhere they went and could handle 1 day without food and probably did many times in their journeys.

So, I still think they had no food for 2-3 days, although it seems evident the disciples had food.

Jesus called them to Himself and tried to express His heart to them for the multitude. I think He waited for the disciples to get a clue and gave them the ample opportunity to take the lead but after 3 days, Jesus had to say something.

The disciples had already seen that Jesus fed 5,000 men. (With women and children it would have been more).

That is why He chastises them for having a hard heart. They neither considered the multitude and had compassion on them nor did they discern or understand who was in their midst (Jesus).

Thanks for adding to the discussion,
Pilgrim