Hell and the Orthodox church? (question)

First off I start this off to learn not to debate or cause a great controversy.

I work with an individual who is Eastern Orthodox and he talked a bit about hell, but what he said to some degree got me really curious about this subject. He said that the Orthodox church (according to him the purest form of church) doesn't teach on the literal exsistance of hell that the Catholics added it in or strayed from proper interpretation of scripture to make it literal.

He said according to the Orthodox church and scripture hell is having to deal with the guilt of this life and that the flames of torment we see in scripture aren't literal flames but infact God's Love.

What are your thoughts on this subject? Please can you guide me to scripture on this subject. I haven't really studied this one in depth. I have thought many times what would be the worst thing to live through for an unredeemed individual, and at times I think to have to sit in the presense of perfection and God's Holiness for all eternity.

I am very familiar with the teachings of the orthodox church and have not heard of this obsurd notion.

Perhaps you may want to show your friend this verse in Rev 20:10

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Here is the Greek

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

tormented "basanizo" which means strictly physical tourment is found in the following verses

Mt 8:6 And saying , Lord , my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy , grievously tormented .
Mt 8:29 And , behold , they cried out , saying , What have we to do with thee , Jesus , thou Son of God ? art thou come hither to torment us before the time ?
Mt 14:24 But the ship was now in the midst of the sea , tossed with waves : for the wind was contrary .
Mr 5:7 And cried with a loud voice , and said , What have I to do with thee , Jesus , thou Son of the most high God ? I adjure thee by God , that thou torment me not .
Mr 6:48 And he saw them toiling in rowing ; for the wind was contrary unto them : and about the fourth watch of the night he cometh unto them , walking upon the sea , and would have passed by them .
Lu 8:28 When he saw Jesus , he cried out , and fell down before him , and with a loud voice said , What have I to do with thee , Jesus , thou Son of God most high ? I beseech thee , torment me not .
2Pe 2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them , in seeing and hearing , vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds ;)
Re 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them , but that they should be tormented five months : and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion , when he striketh a man .
Re 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them , and make merry , and shall send gifts one to another ; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth .
Re 12:2 And she being with child cried , travailing in birth , and pained to be delivered .
Re 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God , which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation ; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels , and in the presence of the Lamb :
Re 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone , where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever .
(KJV)

Now, in case some think that this kind of tourment is reserved only for the Devil, false prophet and the beast it says later in Rev 20: 15

Re 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Hope this helps.
This notion of mental toument or guilt is quite new in our age of apostasy , yet it is also old just as the Devil's lies are old but it was considered heretical teachings by orthodox christianity.

Also this is a good story I just watched last night.

http://youtu.be/HSgH2AHkfkw

To state that the scriptures clearly and unequivocally teach eternal conscious torment for the "unsaved" is simply not correct. It is an opinion, but the scriptures are not unequivocal on the subject.

I participate on another forum where this topic has been discussed running hundreds and hundreds (probably thousands) of posts, from those who hold the traditional view (eternal torment), those who hold the Conditional Immortality view (annihilation after a season of punishment to fit the crime), and those who hold the Univeral Reconciliation (ultimate reconciliation of all persons) view. Believe me-- any text that a person could raise to support the eternal torment view has been discussed and disputed there ad infinitum. There are definitely different ways to view each of the proof texts.

Let me assure you that each view has its supports, but that much of what we know about the eternal torment view comes from pre-suppositions that are read into the various texts. It's not our fault, however. I never even heard of alternative views of hell until several years ago. I certainly never heard them in the Baptist church I grew up in. Much of the language in Revelation is apocalyptic and whether a literal interpretation is correct is questionable.

I personally am now leaning away from the traditional view, and trust me that does not make me a heretic.

The traditional view of hell says that God keeps an "unsaved" person alive for all eternity for the sole purpose of torturing them... and after all eternity the torturing has just begun.

Again- whether the scriptures actually teach this, comparing scripture with scripture, and disregarding all pre-suppositions, is questionable. The problem is that it is almost impossible to disregard our pre-suppositions.

I know that as many are reading this their hackles are being raised. We like our pet doctrines, and for some reason we PARTICULARLY like our doctrine of eternal torment for the wicked. Many are almost rabid in their defense of this unsavory doctrine.

Granted, if it is true, then it is one of those things that I will have to chalk up to "mystery." But I certainly hope with all hope that it is not true.

I fully understand where you are all coming from.
The doctrine of Hell and eternal judgment can never be someone’s pet doctrine unless this person is in one of two camps. One, he cares for the glory of God and His Word first and foremost and places them above his human tendency and compassion, or he has a sick mind that enjoys the suffering of others.
Even God Himself does not hold the doctrine of Hell and eternal judgment as His pet doctrine but has not pleasure in the death of the wicked, but endures with long suffering vessels of dishonor prepared for destruction.
However, I would hold to this doctrine even to my own hurt for the sake of the honor and glory of God almighty and the upholding of His Word.
I see people who minister to the needs of other, and who come in direct contact with all the suffering in the world more prone to disregard this Biblical truth because they allow their human compassion to override their love for the glory of God but blessed are they who are not offended at Me and My Words, says the Lord Jesus.
I have examined all these other views especially the annihilationist and found them faulty and dishonest.

Untobabes wrote:

"One, he cares for the glory of God and His Word first and foremost and places them above his human tendency and compassion,"

I am interested how, in your view, the traditional view of eternal conscious torture for ever and ever and ever brings glory to God?

The fact that it does not seem to bring glory to God may be one of the main reasons to at least question it.

Once again, I am not saying that this view is not the true view. I will just be surprised if it turns out to be the true view, and presumably my pea-brain will see the light when all is revealed.

But God gave us minds, and a sense of justice, and I just don't see how it is just to torture a person for all eternity even if they sinned badly every day and even if they cursed Jesus every day. I know that people say things like "sin is an eternal wrong against an eternal God and deserves an eternal punishment" but that sounds more like desparate pleading.

Yes TMK,

But I would rather have that what you call " desperate Pleading" with the lost that may avail to the salvation of their souls than to imagine their desperate pleading at the gate which will avail nothing when the doors are shut as in the case of the 5 foolish virgins who where forbidden by the bridegroom to enter into the joy of the master but rather were left to darkness, tourment, wailing, and gnashing of teeth.

Now, I have a question for you.
Does that Jesus appear to be loving to you?
why does He not answer the cry of those poor foolish virgins whose only crime was a little slacking off as they pleaded with Him:

"Gentle Jesus, meek and mild,
Look upon a little child;
Pity my simplicity,
Suffer me to come to Thee."

I think Jonathan Edwards says it very good here quote:

Our obligation to love, honor, and obey any being is in proportion to his loveliness, honorableness, and authority… But God is a being infinitely lovely, because He hath infinite excellence and beauty… So that sin against God, being a violation of infinite obligations, must be a crime infinitely heinous, and so deserving infinite punishment… The eternity of the punishment of ungodly men renders it infinite…and therefore renders [it] no more that proportionable to the heinousness of what they are guilty of.

Jonathan Edwards from The Justice of God in the Damnation of Sinners

You guessed it Jim--

My motive is to suggest that the traditional view of hell may not be correct. It may be, but I am no longer dogmatic on this issue.

Because, in my experience, nothing will get a good Christian angrier than to suggest the doctrine of eternal torment may not be true.

I have seen it in action many times. Just an observation, that is all.

Saying that a person has a pet doctrine isn't intended to be offensive; we all have them.

If I have offended anyone, I aopologize.

TK

If the born again have the spirit of Christ in them and the non-born again have the spirit of Satan in them. God would have to give Satan the keys of heaven to him so all the unsaved could be saved by the spirit of Satan becoming the same as the The Spirit of Jesus Christ the only begotten Son of God. Satan is a created being, as all unbelievers are also, the born again are birthed beings, their Father being God, just like Jesus Christ who is the Seed of the Father born again in the believer, a heavenly being.

Satan would have to become born again, with the Seed of Christ the incorruptable Seed of the Father birthed in him before he could enter the Kingdom of God, Satan will not.

Anology; That man would breath into a Chevrolet, that the automobile would become a living soul, not a son of God. I have never seen an automobile with a living soul. I will never see a living soul become a heavenly being unless God takes the old created spirit of satan out an puts the life giving Godly Seed of a Father in those given to Jesus Christ by the Father, who are now heavenly creatures and belong in the Kingdom of God.

God is only completely righteous in putting His sons, seated in the Heavenlies in Christ Jesus into His house. How could Satan and his sons live in the Same House?

There is God's House, Heaven and there is Satan's house, Hell, the two cannot live in the same house. Just like the Spirit of Christ cannot live in the same temple as Satan.
The Born Again are God's temple, the non-born again are satan's temple.

Simple.

In Christ: Phillip

Hello everyone. I'm new to the board. I just stumbled upon this topic and thought I'd throw a few observations out there for consideration.

First, I assume we all agree that however God decides to handle the unrepentant will be just and well deserved. It is also of no consequence to any of us who are in Christ. If you are a Christian because you are wishing to save yourself from judgment perhaps you have the wrong motivation at heart. It's all about God, not saving yourself.

As it relates to eternal punishment, In this post I've read several mentions of this being the belief held by Christians throughout history. I beg to differ. I'm not aware of much discussion on the topic by the early church fathers. I believe the doctrine was not popularized until around the 5th century by The Gospel of Nicodemus. In fact, the Jews had very differing views of the afterlife. Thus the heated debates between the Sadducees and Pharisees. Their confusion on the subject should come as no surprise since the Old Testament fails to mention eternal punishment. Instead it states the punishment for Adam's sin is death. Now Christ came along and promised something new. He promised that whosever believes in Him shall have life. I realize He also says they shall not perish, but does perish mean everlasting punishment? I doubt the audience He spoke to would have taken it that way.

When you seek and love the truth you sometimes have to be willing to change your mind about things. You must be willing to go back to scripture and disregard centuries of tradition. With this topic it is very hard because we have had so many great leaders who have held to a particular view. But what does the Bible say. That should be our source of truth.

Anyone who looks at scripture with an open heart will see that there are valid arguments for all 3 of the popular views of hell.

Thank you for reading.

I actually don't like the idea of eternal torment so have been very open and even prefer annihilation. I have read about it and others have tried to show it to me through the scriptures, but I don't see it the way they are presenting it.

Notice that one kind of eternity is compared with another kind.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Strongs on Everlasting: a synonym of eternal.
G166
αἰώνιος
aiōnios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Strongs for Everlasting in the Hebrew

H5769
עלם עולם
‛ôlâm ‛ôlâm
o-lawm', o-lawm'
From H5956; properly concealed, that is, the vanishing point; generally time out of mind (past or future), that is, (practically) eternity; frequentative adverbially (especially with prepositional prefix) always: - always (-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, [n-]) ever (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end). Compare H5331, H5703.

Never SHALL BE QUENCHED
Mar 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

No annihilation since the EXPERT (Jesus) says that we are all RESURRECTED.
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

I still remain open and am not dogmatic about this. I think it would be good if everyone was annihilated but this is not my program and I don't call the shots. So far, I don't see annihilation.. Someday, we will all find out.

But, who wants to be annihilated? Who does not want to live forever in a new body with the absence of sin and forever with the Lord?

The question of annihilation or eternal torment really does not matter unless you know that you are not going to heaven and don't want to walk with God, then I guess it would be very important. I don't think I would be rollin' the dice, though. Better to assume eternal torment if you need something to motivate you. But why don't you just let the Love of God motivate and convince you to surrender to Him? It always about "what's in it for me", or "how much can I get away with and not really suffer"?

Pilgrim