Spiritual or Soulish - Nee

A question to ponder: Where in scripture is the idea of “soul” (or soul-ish) applied to a human compartment that can only do what is contrary to God or independent from God?

In the history of man’s creation we read, ‘The Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground’—thus was his body made—‘and breathed into his nostrils the breath’ or spirit ‘of life’: thus his spirit came from God; ‘and man became a living soul.’ The spirit quickening the body made man a living soul, a living person with the consciousness of himself. The soul was the meeting-place, the point of union between body and spirit. Through the body, man, the living soul, stood related to the external world of sense; could influence it, or be influenced by it. Through the spirit he stood related to the spiritual world and the Spirit of God, whence he had his origin; could be the recipient and the minister of its life and power. Standing thus midway between two worlds, belonging to both, the soul had the power of determining itself, of choosing or refusing the objects by which it was surrounded, and to which it stood related.

In the constitution of these three parts of man’s nature, the spirit, as linking him with the Divine, was the highest; the body, connecting him with the sensible and animal, the lowest; intermediate stood the soul, partaker of the nature of the others, the bond that united them and through which they could act on each other. Its work, as the central power, was to maintain them in their due relation; to keep the body, as the lowest, in subjection to the spirit; itself to receive through the spirit, as the higher, from the Divine Spirit what was waiting (sic) it for its perfection: and so to pass down, even to the body, that by which it might be partaker of the Spirit’s perfection and become a spiritual body

Personal Comment by myself.

One of the most remarkable and honest teachers to have ever lived practiced 'experiential' truth (my emphasis} in China in the early part of the 20th century. Nee in The Spiritual Man explained that he was learning from what God made real in the work not what others said about the work. This is why I have used the term 'experiential' truth. He was courageous enough and therefore willing enough to test everything which God did with him and those he served against the Scriptures. And most importantly to accept and practice what was experienced and tested as a matter of obedience to the leading of God fully grounded in Scripture. What was experienced was tested and that which could not be clearly seen in the Word was rejected.

Nee only really set out to write one or perhaps two books. The chief work however of the many books which bear his name is "The Spiritual Man". In this book Nee sets out an understanding of the nature and construct of man at the start of the book. The only Scripture to explicitly convey this construct is the one quoted in this thread or post. (1 Thessalonians’ 5:23). He later explained in another book, which was drawn from his writings and teaching ministry, "The Latent Power of the Soul" how an understanding of the Soul itself.......drawn from examples across a range of human activity; both intellectual, emotional and volitive......could not be the source and therefore the energy used by God for His work of salvation in men.

Nee didn't condemn the Soul as always sinful. But he did teach that the soul is always unprofitable to God in the evangelisation of the nations and the building of the church. I have taken the trouble to add this post because I have known no other teacher who better explains the importance of right separation in our understanding the nature of man, and therefore right activity in serving God. The quote above from The Latent Power of the Soul is self explanatory.

Andrew

Nee didn't condemn the Soul as always sinful. But he did teach that the soul is always unprofitable to God in the evangelisation of the nations and the building of the church.

Agreed. I think of the Apostle Paul going to bring the message of the Gospel to Asia and the Lord prevented him by the Spirit, so he re-corrected and then when he received a dream he obeyed the vision of the Lord. We cannot help but operate in the soulish level at times because we are in these "tents". Yet I also agree with the Nee quote fully that only those operations which are done by the Spirit of God have tremendous eternal significance and bring glory to God's Name.

The impossible glorifies God. The possible glorifies man's abilities.

Hi Diane. According to Nee, who bases most of what he taught on verses found in Romans 8 and those along that line - the soul is to submit to the Spirit within us. Walking in the spirit is the soul's submission to the dictates and leadings of the LORD that speaks and leads through our spirit. That no flesh - [which is synonymous with our soul] - may glory in His Presence ... "for without Me, you can do nothing."
Our soul or flesh is where our freewill is and we see that in the verses that you posted. Our humanity is there - but it will never glory in His Presence. He expects our thoughts and actions to orginate from and are brought under submission to His Spirit within our spirit and not from ourselves. Our freewill decides whether to wait on Him to lead or speak through our spirit and then to obey or follow through on what originates from Him, by our own freewill/soul.

Don't know if this helps at all.

where it seems that the soul truly craves for God and indeed is required to love God

Loving God for Himself is probably the most noble endeavour of the soul of man. Evangelism and equipping the saints to serve God is a calling of God according to Ephesians. I don't think that seeking to know God for His own loveliness is going to cause anyone to be led astray or stumble in the church. On the other hand the church is built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, whereon Christ Himself is the chief corner stone. Is it really likely that God would build His church on even the most noble efforts of a man?

In the Epesian list of God's gifts to the church, this leaves evangelists, pastors and teachers. Is it by the power of the evangelist that a man is convicted of sin? Or does the evangelist give faith to believe? If it is, then none are yet saved, because we have believed by the power of a man. Where then comes conviction leading to true repentance? Pastors and teachers feed the sheep and by sound doctrine keep them. What is the food and what is the doctrine to keep? If it is a mans words and ideas, or a mans teachings we are yet starved and hungry.

All these gifts of men have souls and bodies but the substance of their activities, if it is to always lead men to God and Christ, must be God Himself working through them. Yes, working through their souls and bodies, but not by the power of their souls and bodies. It is the newness of life in their regenerated spirit and the calling of God in their lives which gives rise to the substance. The soul is not the whole man if he is regenerate. because he is a new creature. As the Lord said, "whosoever believes in me, from his innermost parts shall flow rivers of living waters". Also the whosoever not only includes the ministers of the Word of Christ, but includes everyone who believes. The gifts of faith in Romans and the gifts of the Spirit in Corinthians are all subject to God giving newness of life in the first instance. Otherwise everything we do is just the soul or the body. It is the spirit which is born of the Spirit. The flesh profits nothing.

Isn't this the very difficulty which everyone who is born again of the Spirit of God has experienced in our own walks. False apostolic teachings, men who deny the power of God, having none of it, yet perverting the Word of Truth. Laying a shaky and uncertain foundation. False prophets speaking lies and leading many astray. Evagelist's commanding men to be saved, fishing for men with nets made of their own reason, and deluding many. Pastors and teachers feeding the sheep with bitterness and scattering the flock. I don't say this judgmentally, but fearfully knowing that it is true in many instances. If all these men had laboured as broken vessels, releasing the true source of God's power in the spirit, we would see a perfect church already. It is not this way and it would be delusional to imagine that the church is already perfected. But this is God's ambition and He will do it according to the gifts and the life He has already given. The very thing that must be laid down and broken is the soul and the body, only then will we see real power of God unto revival. The method of this being broken is denying our selves and our bearing the cross unto death; a following after Christ so that we may be found in the end where He will be found, at His appearing, and His Kingdom.

Andrew

I do not see Scripture suggesting a shift into another realm of our personhood: the spirit – as distinct from the mind (seen as the soul, as in psyche) or the body.

To the Lord whom I serve I offer my heartfelt thanks, for He has given me the privilege of writing this book. I had always hoped another more capable would undertake this work, yet it pleases the Lord to call me to it. If the choice were left to me I should be the last of all to write; for I have the least desire to do such a book. My hesitation lies not in withdrawal from duty but rather in the realization that such a book touching on the way of spiritual life and the stratagem of spiritual warfare is surely beyond the possibility of one whose experience of the Lord has been less than ten years long. (Part preface) The Spiritual Man.

This part preface seems to me to point to the 'honesty' of the man.

One thing that we all agree about is the importance of judging oneself first. I don't mean this to sound like something else so I will explain it as I personally understand it. Judging oneself seems to me in experience to mean that on the one hand one is willing to judge ones motives, attitudes and so on, but in balance one must also judge ones own experiences in the Lord as well the effect one has on others. We know that one day we will all have to give an account to the Lord Jesus Himself for our own personal walk. More burdensome is the knowledge that we will also have to give an account of His gift of life to us; the gift of talents, as well as the effect or 'fruit' of the calling and talents given.

So that say a pastor who is given as a gift to the body must also account for his calling as one given; in short his labour of effects. Sometimes we only realise that we have sinned by the effect it has on others. It seems this kind of judging of oneself is essential to growing as a pastor and not simply as one called. I don't doubt that to the pastor this distinction is almost inseparable, but very real. To the one 'looking' at the pastor it could easily seem like mere semantics. It is certain that this distinction is very real to a 'mindful' pastor as it is to apostles, prophets and evangelists if they are true.

I agree that it is reasonable and I would say necessary to examine who has influenced a teacher in their thinking. It is certain that Nee held Jessie Penn-Lewis in regard. It is not so certain whether she influenced him however. How could we judge such a thing anyway unless it was stated explicitly by the man himself. Simply making reference to an others writings cant be taken as proof of influence. This must be especially true of someone who was 'taken out of the way' to suffer trials of their faith, in order to make certain their ministry to the wider body of Christ.

One thing is certain we don't follow a man or men. We follow Christ and are accountable to Him alone.

Andrew

by ccchhhrrriiisss

Zac Poonen has a message on this topic that is included on SermonIndex's YouTube page:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ck5su6Mg7aA

My wife and I attended the meeting and we both appreciated many of the points that Brother Zac made. I think that he echos many of the things that Nee is saying.

That was the first time I've heard Zac and you're right, Chris. I caught myself smiling through the whole presentation. Love rejoices at truth.

I believe, the tearing of the veil between mind/flesh and spirit to sometimes be painful [mainly to our autonomous, 'self' preserving ego], but always a reason for rejoicing if we dig through to our own wills and submit, as Zac showed. I loved his visuals of the house being built by digging down through the sand to the rock of our wills.

We learn to depend on His Spirit within, in two ways, from what I've seen. As Zac brought "The Word" - Heb 4:12 For the Word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

- and by experiences - if we see that He is in control of "all things" that come our way - Rom 8:28,29 And we know that ALL things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose - FOR whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

I believe it was Nee that said that even that flat tire is part of the "all things" that can give us opportunity to see that GOD is allowing these situations for us to make a choice of either seeing it as coming from His Hand so that we can react by the spirit or our flesh/mind/emotions - and that if we see that "all things" that come at us, are in His control and our opportunity to rent the veil between our soul and react from His Word and/or Spirit's leading instead - we are being transformed into His Image, bit by bit.
The veil is rent bit by bit by our "will" submiting to His Word and the circumstances that He permits to enter our days and is either slowed down or sped up by our willingness to lose ourselves in whatever He wants.
Many prefer to blame anything negative that comes their way as "the devil", missing yet another chance to allow GOD to show us how unlike Him we are in our responses and preventing us from seeing our reactions are to protect 'self' rather than turn to the Spirit to be transformed by 'all things'. All circumstances are either met by our self/flesh or seen as the way that He brings us into His Image, as we die to protecting our self image.

That video has made me want to sing, "More of Thee" and I'm still smiling.

Thank you!

Good Sunday to you, Diane.

Rather than go off into a debate on dichotomy vs trichotomy, which will either kill this thread or make it much too similar to a Cal/Arm debate - maybe we could just stay on the topic of something like Romans 8 or merely let this topic go, as is.
I don't see the need to take a "critical stand" because of those that have taken either view of the nature of man to extremes.
There are extremes in both camps, we must admit, if we were to be honest.

Just a suggestion.

Have a Blessed day!

When I studied reformed theology I read about dichotomy and trichotomy and monoism.
Reformed people hold to dichotomy while pentacostals hold to trichotomy.

We live in this day and at this hour. Despite the importance of what is taught across a wide spectrum of theological and experiential positions, we have to attend to today. So far as we are able to judge what is happening today the most important reality which all saints have to attend to, here and now is the Lord's soon return. We hear all the time, and some of us assert it clearly..."This is the time of apostasy". Not that apostasy began just this morning, or that it will be fully revealed by this evening. Yet the apostles, Paul and John stated clearly that it was already in the world in their day. John speaks of it as "the spirit of anti-christ" and Paul speaks of it as a "falling away". One is the cause and the working of wickedness, the other is its effect. Taken together what is being spoken of is a mystery on the one hand, but is clearly 'grounded' in the claim that a man is coming into the theatre of the world who's appearing will be a conclusion of this effect which will directly precede the Lords' return. Anything which makes it possible to understand what part we as saints in the church today, may have in this falling away, must be of the most immense importance. More than this we need to be 'kept' and we need to 'keep' one another in truth and love.

I would suggest that one way in which God Himself makes provision for His children is to bring into the understanding of His children those things which are necessary for their day. Today there is a need to know how to stand and walk in this perverse generation where apostasy is more visible than at any other hour.

For this reason alone I am certain in my own spirit that a fuller understanding of what a man is, and how he affects himself and others, will serve that need well. A theological discussion won't serve that need. If we look to this way of walking we will inevitably, be tossed about by everything which has been said from the apostolic church until this very hour. Such a way of thinking will not satisfy the need to know today how God Himself is able to keep His children despite the hour in which we live.

Earnestly searching the Scriptures will have the same effect as earnestly looking into theology in this regard. This is because the Scriptures speak to all the days of the church, not simply to 'this' day. No doubt we will find if we look into prophecies and doctrines of Scripture that they may in fact keep us personally, but these things will not keep others if they remain in ourselves alone. If we seek to teach from prophetic insight and present doctrines alone, and do not see that we have to discern the times and bear one another's burdens so that we can all walk, we will have missed more than the greater portion of our calling and The Father's will for our lives.

This subject of the nature of a man and The Father's dealings with men individually, is at the heart of the matter; precisely because the dichotomy of a man as having three distinct and real parts is revealed in this day. That is to say it has only been taught in the last 100 years or so. In days previous other things were given by God to keep the church in that day. If this thread is to have any purpose in serving God's will for our lives today, please make it about today's reality in the context of growing apostasy and not about past workings of God from which we have already benefited. We really can benefit from 'looking' into the full nature of a man and men individually, but not if we focus on an apparent doctrine, which in any event, is no doctrine at all. The subject has been searched by others far more equipped than we may be and still it is rejected by the majority of saints. Indeed it is actively resisted by many. We need to look to effects in our day and not doctrines, so long as those doctrines do not touch upon the issue of life and the person of the Lord Jesus. Apart from sacred doctrines of eternal life as understood through Christ birth, sinless life, obedience unto death, resurrection, ascension into heaven and soon return; we should have no concern at being free in the knowledge of these things to lay hold all that works for His glory and our good benefit today.

Andrew