N.T. Wright asks: Have we gotten heaven all wrong?

So many different scriptures passed through my mind whilst reading this, but, I won't mention those right now.

Firstly, I'm not in the least bit familiar with N.T.Wright,
I've heard the name, but I'm not familiar with his writings.

As it is, from what I have read in this article, I'd rather not be familiar with someone who places themselves above the word of God, and also above those Christians who have gone before us, some who were martyred for the Lord Jesus Christ.

Scripture tells us, "and have tasted the word of God and the powers of the age to come" Hebrews 6v5.

The age to come? Heaven?

Hebrews 11 itself needs no intoduction or explanation.

The book of Revelation destroys what Wright is trying to have others believe.

If we had, a few years ago, a book, and film, the Da Vinci Code, that not only caused some believers to question their faith, and overthrew the faith of some, what do you suppose this will do?

This post is long enough.

Take care.

I have my disagreements with Wright. I've not engrosed myself in the writings of NT Wright, but for those I know who have, I would say Wright's view here is perfectly in keeping with NT, apostolic, and historic Christianity. Wright's trying to make an important emphasis here: We aren't going to spend eternity in some celestial disembodied existence in heaven. God, who is reconciling all things to himself in Christ, even to the redemption of our own bodies, will one day gloriously bodily resurrect us from the dead, to dwell forever in the new earth that he creates for us to enjoy. This is something, Paul reminds us in Romans 8, of which all of creation currently groans for. God is restoring that which was lost in the beginning, and looking to one day call all of the earth blessed. It is a world in which there will be no more curse, and no more death. Weeping and mourning shall flee. Everlasting joy shall come down on our heads. And the whole earth will be filled with the knowledge and the glory of the Lord, just as the prophets said.

And far from taking away from any of the spiritual aspects of the kingdom of heaven, Wright reinforces them. "We are a people from the future" as one pastor friend of mine says. That is, we are a people of the resurrection, who have a tasted of the powers of the age to come in the here and now. We are a people of the resurrection, who have been spiritually regenerated in anticipation of our bodily regeneration in the ages to come. Our heavenly citizenship extends from that realm. What we experience now is just a downpayment of what we shall experience in full then.

The kingdom of God is not merely something mystical. It is something very practical and earthly. Which is why Jesus not only redeemed our souls, but came to this world healing the sick and raising the dead. That is why he had compassion on the poor. That is why he wants us to be generous in our giving. That is why he wants us to live our lives free from the fear of death. Death has lost its power because the cosmos were changed in the resurrection of Christ from the grave. Death is no longer the final verdict. The hour is coming and now is when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God and come to life.

And what of the heathen? They too shall be resurrected from the grave. They too will be given new bodies. But their fate is more terrible than that of dismebodied souls suffering in some Dante's inferno. Hell will be so terrible, not only because it will mean everlasting punishment of the soul, but it will mean the everlasting torment of the body as well. Christ taught us to fear not him who could destroy the body, but Him who could cast both body and soul into hell. Hell will be so terrible, not only because it will be a place away from the presence of Christ and His kingdom, but because there will be a literal place of fire that men burn forever and ever. It will be a place where you lust for but a drop of water, and will never find relief. It is a place of true spiritual and bodily agony, of which, the curse and fall mankind experiences in this life, is but a fortaste of the terrors that shall come upon all who perish.

I have much respect for mr Wright and been blessed by much of his work, but i do not agree to everything he gets from scripture, but here is an interview from Time magazine with mr wright abut this subject.

Wright, 58, talked by phone with TIME's David Van Biema.

TIME: At one point you call the common view of heaven a "distortion and serious diminution of Christian hope."

Wright: It really is. I've often heard people say, "I'm going to heaven soon, and I won't need this stupid body there, thank goodness.' That's a very damaging distortion, all the more so for being unintentional.

TIME: How so? It seems like a typical sentiment.

Wright: There are several important respects in which it's unsupported by the New Testament. First, the timing. In the Bible we are told that you die, and enter an intermediate state. St. Paul is very clear that Jesus Christ has been raised from the dead already, but that nobody else has yet. Secondly, our physical state. The New Testament says that when Christ does return, the dead will experience a whole new life: not just our soul, but our bodies. And finally, the location. At no point do the resurrection narratives in the four Gospels say, "Jesus has been raised, therefore we are all going to heaven." It says that Christ is coming here, to join together the heavens and the Earth in an act of new creation.

TIME: Is there anything more in the Bible about the period between death and the resurrection of the dead?

Wright: We know that we will be with God and with Christ, resting and being refreshed. Paul writes that it will be conscious, but compared with being bodily alive, it will be like being asleep. The Wisdom of Solomon, a Jewish text from about the same time as Jesus, says "the souls of the righteous are in the hand of God," and that seems like a poetic way to put the Christian understanding, as well.

TIME: But it's not where the real action is, so to speak?

Wright: No. Our culture is very interested in life after death, but the New Testament is much more interested in what I've called the life after life after death — in the ultimate resurrection into the new heavens and the new Earth. Jesus' resurrection marks the beginning of a restoration that he will complete upon his return. Part of this will be the resurrection of all the dead, who will "awake," be embodied and participate in the renewal. John Polkinghorne, a physicist and a priest, has put it this way: "God will download our software onto his hardware until the time he gives us new hardware to run the software again for ourselves." That gets to two things nicely: that the period after death is a period when we are in God's presence but not active in our own bodies, and also that the more important transformation will be when we are again embodied and administering Christ's kingdom.

TIME: That is rather different from the common understanding. Did some Biblical verse contribute to our confusion?

Wright: There is Luke 23, where Jesus says to the good thief on the cross, "Today you will be with me in Paradise." But in Luke, we know first of all that Christ himself will not be resurrected for three days, so "paradise" cannot be a resurrection. It has to be an intermediate state. And chapters 4 and 5 of Revelation, where there is a vision of worship in heaven that people imagine describes our worship at the end of time. In fact it's describing the worship that's going on right now. If you read the book through, you see that at the end we don't have a description of heaven, but, as I said, of the new heavens and the new earth joined together.

TIME: Why, then, have we misread those verses?

Wright: It has, originally, to do with the translation of Jewish ideas into Greek. The New Testament is deeply, deeply Jewish, and the Jews had for some time been intuiting a final, physical resurrection. They believed that the world of space and time and matter is messed up, but remains basically good, and God will eventually sort it out and put it right again. Belief in that goodness is absolutely essential to Christianity, both theologically and morally. But Greek-speaking Christians influenced by Plato saw our cosmos as shabby and misshapen and full of lies, and the idea was not to make it right, but to escape it and leave behind our material bodies. The church at its best has always come back toward the Hebrew view, but there have been times when the Greek view was very influential.

TIME: Can you give some historical examples?

Wright: Two obvious ones are Dante's great poetry, which sets up a Heaven, Purgatory and Hell immediately after death, and Michelangelo's Last Judgment in the Sistine chapel, which portrays heaven and hell as equal and opposite last destinations. Both had enormous influence on Western culture, so much so that many Christians think that is Christianity.

TIME: But it's not.

Wright: Never at any point do the Gospels or Paul say Jesus has been raised, therefore we are we are all going to heaven. They all say, Jesus is raised, therefore the new creation has begun, and we have a job to do.

TIME: That sounds a lot like... work.

Wright: It's more exciting than hanging around listening to nice music. In Revelation and Paul's letters we are told that God's people will actually be running the new world on God's behalf. The idea of our participation in the new creation goes back to Genesis, when humans are supposed to be running the Garden and looking after the animals. If you transpose that all the way through, it's a picture like the one that you get at the end of Revelation.

TIME: And it ties in to what you've written about this all having a moral dimension.

Wright: Both that, and the idea of bodily resurrection that people deny when they talk about their "souls going to Heaven." If people think "my physical body doesn't matter very much," then who cares what I do with it? And if people think that our world, our cosmos, doesn't matter much, who cares what we do with that? Much of "traditional" Christianity gives the impression that God has these rather arbitrary rules about how you have to behave, and if you disobey them you go to hell, rather than to heaven. What the New Testament really says is God wants you to be a renewed human being helping him to renew his creation, and his resurrection was the opening bell. And when he returns to fulfil the plan, you won't be going up there to him, he'll be coming down here.

TIME: That's very different from, say, the vision put out in the Left Behind books.

Wright: Yes. If there's going to be an Armageddon, and we'll all be in heaven already or raptured up just in time, it really doesn't matter if you have acid rain or greenhouse gases prior to that. Or, for that matter, whether you bombed civilians in Iraq. All that really matters is saving souls for that disembodied heaven.

TIME: Has anyone you've talked to expressed disappointment at the loss of the old view?

Wright: Yes, you might get disappointment in the case where somebody has recently gone through the death of somebody they love and they are wanting simply to be with them. And I'd say that's understandable. But the end of Revelation describes a marvelous human participation in God's plan. And in almost all cases, when I've explained this to people, there's a sense of excitement and a sense of, "Why haven't we been told this before?"

I am uncomfortable with his down playing the "intermediate state" of our heavenly existence when we die. I think it is unfortunate. But, considering the down playing of the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead in our culture, to the point where Jesus has become this vague ghostly figure, instead of the bodily resurrected king of all creation, I am all the more grieved over that. So, if he has a little bit of a knee jerk reaction that swings the pendelum a little too far the opposite direction, I can't say I blame him. Of course, we should strive for a blanced view of both. But, I think he's hitting the nail on the head a little more square than the average evangelical Christian, and even pastor.

Wright is wrong. I've no need to read anything as deluded as he has written.

If he can write such godless nonsense, he is not worth reading or listening to.

Bye.

I have also benefited from Wright. However I do think that he makes the same mistake as those he criticizes only in the opposite direction. Where some get too heavenly, Wright gets too earthly.

As Christians, we believe in the bodily resurrection of the dead. This is a doctrine that has been largely forgotten. NT Wright is doing a great service to the body of Christ to remind us of this long forgotten doctrine. Even if his comments are a little off.

A great question. But if you were to ask 8 out of 10 Christians about the coming resurrection of the dead, and our eternal state, most of them would insist that we are going to spend eternity in heaven. If you told them eternity would be spent on earth in resurrected bodies, they would probably be confused. They may give lip service to the idea of the resurrection at best.

Quote:

"I would say Wright's view here is perfectly in keeping with NT, apostolic, and historic Christianity. Wright's trying to make an important emphasis here: We aren't going to spend eternity in some celestial disembodied existence in heaven. God, who is reconciling all things to himself in Christ, even to the redemption of our own bodies, will one day gloriously bodily resurrect us from the dead, to dwell forever in the new earth that he creates for us to enjoy. This is something, Paul reminds us in Romans 8, of which all of creation currently groans for. God is restoring that which was lost in the beginning, and looking to one day call all of the earth blessed. It is a world in which there will be no more curse, and no more death. Weeping and mourning shall flee. Everlasting joy shall come down on our heads. And the whole earth will be filled with the knowledge and the glory of the Lord, just as the prophets said."

I am in agreement. Randy Alcorn wrote a very popular book on heaven a few years back and says very similar things. There is going to be a new earth someday, and we will be on it in our resurrected bodies. That's awesome!

Anyone interested in what scripture has to say?

1 Corinthians spells out clearly the doctrine of a bodily resurrection. It doesn't get more clear than that.

Yes brethren there is going to be a bodily resurrection but you are missing the whole point of what Greg is trying to convey.

When I first saw this that Greg posted I thought that “Wright” was going away from spiritual interpretation toward an earthly interpretation and when Christian brought out the interview then there is no doubt that he has been mislead and sad to say will lead others astray.

Brethren I believe an earlier article of what Greg posted does not need to be overlooked because of the truth people need to really see, that Mr. Wright has completely left out and has failed to see, so I’m going to list it here:

Quote-
The problems with all these new definitions though they are true "in part" (which makes them more subtle) is that they focus on and work towards what is earthly. The goal is to restore man on this earth and his earthly things. It is the preservation of this flesh, this world system, this creation. It is the trying to save things temporal, the things we can see.

But the problem is that the biblical witness is 100% not inline with this type of thinking. The teaching is mankind is depraved and without hope. And even after the regeneration experience of New Birth that his "flesh" is still active and sinful and the body cannot be redeemed in this earth. The bible applauds faith "things unseen" but says that everything seen will be destroyed so we are not to set our hearts on these things. It says that riches of this earth are bad and the heavenly riches are good. And the entire earth will be destroyed by fire. And then there will be a "new heavens and a new earth".

So for a doctrine that tries to preserve this earth, teach this earth and mankind is not that bad and that Jesus wants to help restore all this earth and people on this earth is wrong. Jesus is saving people "out of" this world to be brought to His heavenly kingdom.

As I was reading this article and commenting about it to my wife she was reading this passage that really summarizes the bible viewpoint of this:

"For, as I have often told you before and now say again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things. But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ." (Philippians 3:18-20)

This is not to speak evil in anyway of NT wright but to just respond to a growing trend of theology that I see going very much away from the biblical clear witness that the apostles carried.
-quote

Thank you Greg for this understanding, because I believe it is from the Lord. Almost 6 years ago God showed me something through an experience of His presence that was so awesome that scriptures just came to my mind from the spirit of what Paul was saying in 2 Thess chapters 1&2.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I believe God showed me that many in the known church world will follow the anti-christ because they will be deceived because they are still of the flesh, worldly, and materialistic. They have been deceived by the lie of the ecumenical movement that is fleshly driven working through man’s self esteem and glorifies man instead of our glorious Lord Jesus Christ. It seems now that Mr. Wright has bought into this lie and many more will not be heeding the warnings of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

1 Peter 2:11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;
12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

Hebrews 11:12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Hebrews 11:27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

Hebrews 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

Genesis 15:13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;

Acts 7:5 And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1Pe 1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
1Pe 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Those who are truly saved have come out of this world and are seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. We are in the world but not of the world. We have an inheritance that is incorruptible, undefiled and cannot fade away and is also reserved in heaven for us who are kept by the power of God unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Blessings…from brother rbanks

Well, I definitely take issue with Wright over the idea that the doctrine of the resurrection should put us into a "preservation" mindset when it comes to the things of this world. Undoubtedly, this world is passing away and will be entirely destroyed. It will be replaced with another one altogether.

Although, it should be noted that some of the "practical" ramifications of living resurrected lives in the here and now, in light of the age that has been inagurated with Christ's victory over death, will be of positive benefit to the temporary order we are a part of. In demonstrating the reality of the kingdom of God, and giving us a taste of what is to come, Christ did things like heal the sick and raise the dead. In raising a couple people from the dead, Jesus definitely preserved their earthly bodies a few more years! Or, in saving people from their sin, the benefits of godly living will definitely be of practical value, not only in your life, but the lives of others. Iindeed, had the apostle Paul not been saved, many other people may have died.

But, the temporary benefits that I am speaking of here should not be understood in some sort of post-millenial sense. And I haven't read enough of Wright to know if he is pre or post millenial in his theology. I suspect he is probably post/a-millenial. Which would perhaps explain his notion of "preservation" he talks about.

But regardless, the heavens and earth are passing away. And our present bodies will vanish with them. But when Christ comes again, we shall come to life again, with new bodies, fit to live forever and ever in the new world that He is creating.

For a more spiritual application of the theology of the resurrection, I would encourage people who like some of what Wright says to personally listen to Art Katz. Brother Art had much to say on the doctrine of the resurrection, and the practical application of it in the life of a saint of God. I don't think I've heard anybody teach more clearly and Biblically on the subject than Katz.

I consider Dr Wright as a Christian Brother indeed! But he is weak on certain areas such as eschatology i.e. second comming of Christ. Apart from that I think we can benefit from a lot of his writing on the subject of the historical Jesus. Regarding his books: eat the theological meat and throw a way the unscriptual bones.

Sincerely Magnus Nordlund, Sweden